(L) Girls und Panzer

[Panzerklein]

General attitude in a war is complete sense, but in a sport is nonsene.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Given the connection, Shiho's general attitude makes complete sense.

But this isn't war. We've been trying to get that across to you and to her for ages now. Maintaining a war attitude into something that isn't war is just stupid.

And that does nothing to address my more recent complaint about her hypocrisy.

[Sumeragi]

Senshado is not merely a sport but a martial art, as I have explained time again and again. Those who try to think of it as only a sport will continue to not understand the rational behind what is going on within the Nishizumi family.

And no, I will not change that basic idea of martial arts being more than a sport, as someone who practices seriously. Martial art is ultimately of war, and degrading as merely sport is an extreme affront in my eyes. I'm willing to let others not take it seriously, but not to the point of completely missing the core values and concepts.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Senshado is not merely a sport but a martial art, as I have explained time again and again. Those who try to think of it as only a sport will continue to not understand the rational behind what is going on within the Nishizumi family.

And no, I will not change that basic idea of martial arts being more than a sport, as someone who practices seriously. Martial art is ultimately of war, and degrading as merely sport is an extreme affront in my eyes. I'm willing to let others not take it seriously, but not to the point of completely missing the core values and concepts.

So, in for instance, a karate tournament, once a match is over and your opponent is leaving the ring, you would condone coming up behind him and snapping his neck. This would prevent that particular enemy from ever opposing you again: a proper warlike response.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan

There is no "Katyusha" translated after

Track 9: カチューシャ

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

So, in for instance, a karate tournament, once a match is over and your opponent is leaving the ring, you would condone coming up behind him and snapping his neck. This would prevent that particular enemy from ever opposing you again: a proper warlike response.

Even wars have rules. Your example is not war, but barbariansim.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Even wars have rules. Your example is not war, but barbariansim.

Killing enemies that have already retreated or left the field isn't particularly unheard of though.

Technically, wars have laws, not rules - see Geneva Convention. And even in the battlefield said laws being enforced is more up to the decency of the combatants in the field, and only if both sides agree to the same laws. See the kind of atrocities and disregard for human rights in places that do not follow or do not particularly care about the Geneva Convention, like the more war-torn parts of Africa.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Even wars have rules. Your example is not war, but barbariansim.

I'm pretty sure you could find many many examples of that happening in war. Many.

Look, martial arts in our world are made for war. Senshado was made to prevent war. They say that specifically. And martial arts in our world, when done in performances, in exhibitions, in tournaments, in schools like the ones that all these girls are in, are very specifically done in ways to prevent dangerous and deadly accidents from occuring, and when a potentially deadly incident happens a match will be halted until whatever the danger is is dealt with. This is the reality you are ignoring while trying to say we don't understand. These martial arts tournaments are treated like sports in the real world complete with safeguards against people dying, and rules against causing serious harm.

You are familiar with Kendo? It is a martial art. It happens on the highschool level. And if anyone is injured in a match they are not considered a "sacrifice" but instead the match is halted and they are rotated out and a substitute fights in their place. This is real.

Shiho's attitude is not real. It would not be accepted in any highschool sport martial art, which is what senshado is. In a martial art being used for military training, yes, it could be understood there, but that is not what this situation is. YOU. CANNOT. IGNORE. THE. NATURE. OF. THE. SITUATION. SIMPLY. BY. CALLING. IT. A. MARTIAL. ART. Again, as we have been telling you since this issue came up, plenty of martial arts exist in real life that are still real martial arts, and yet still properly respect the lives of the people using them.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Senshado was made to prevent war. They say that specifically.

Care for a source on this? This is the first time I've heard this.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Care for a source on this? This is the first time I've heard this.

You'll have to go back through the thread. A long ways, I'm afraid. It was in translations from outside materials, something about explaining why women were driving tanks instead of men.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Even wars have rules. Your example is not war, but barbariansim.

So in sport, shooting opponent who left the battle try to rescure your fall teamate to make victory for sure and left your teamate to die is full of hornor? The the war only has law, not rule, the law prevent somehitng like bioweapon, nuclear weapons v.v... not the way to kill enemy, you can chop off enemy's head, shoot enemy to make him die in most pain in war, snapping neck from behind, it is fine and don't consider at babarism, but in sport they aren't allow to make any death except accident. Sport martial arts for trainning the body, the mind, and dueling with other but to make friend not enemy. If you still want the original idea of Military Martial Art? Then go to army and volunteer to the battlefield and perform deadly martial art there, not in sport ring, ok?

Looke like you confuse between war and sport.

[Sumeragi]

You've obviously didn't read it correctly: Men were not allowed due to avoid utilization of tanks for war (whether or not that was the case in WW2 remains to be seen). Senshado itself is separate from that restriction.

Anything that is not outside of the rules of engagement is honorable. Thus, what Maho and Miho both did were correct.

[Mitsu Aoi]

http://youtu.be/HPS5TpO8PyM

[RRW]

[Panzerklein]

Then we should remove strictly rule in sport martial arts to see guro and corpse in Olympic games .

[willx]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

You are familiar with Kendo? It is a martial art. It happens on the highschool level. And if anyone is injured in a match they are not considered a "sacrifice" but instead the match is halted and they are rotated out and a substitute fights in their place. This is real.

Hm, this debate has gotten quite circular and people seem to be arguing past each other. Are we still talking about Miho jumping out to "save" someone?

Look at what you just said above, if someone is injured, the match is stopped in Kendo you say. So in Senshado .. why was the match not stopped after the tank fell in the water? What is in the rules of Senshado? We're using tanks, there is inherently a risk of danger .. what burden are you bearing to become a practitioner of Senshado?

Also, are there any medics or staff on hand to rescue people when they are in danger? Recovery of damaged vehicles? I'd like all of these points addressed. It doesn't seem like it would make a ton of sense if it was the responsibility of a Kendo team to rush in and "rescue" their own members during a match.

I had a thought .. obviously the idea of life or death dangers in such a cheerful anime may not be fitting to where our collective moods are at.. but I wouldn't be surprised if everyone is willing to lay their life on the line when practicing Senshado. Especially if people are peeking out of the Commander's copula during fire. I don't care how "safe" that round is when it's flying directly at a human body. Then again, I remember when in the early practice match, the girls abandoned their tank in fear ..

My thoughts: Depending on the rules and circumstances it is possible that Miho jumping out to rescue her teammate could be simultaneously considered 1) a courageous admirable human act and 2) a failure as a practitioner of Senshado -- Is it hard to accept that?

Outlook remains positive

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

General attitude in a war is complete sense, but in a sport is nonsene.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

But this isn't war. We've been trying to get that across to you and to her for ages now. Maintaining a war attitude into something that isn't war is just stupid.

And that does nothing to address my more recent complaint about her hypocrisy.

And all this stems from a misunderstanding on the japanese mentality about martial arts sports. Today we see Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kendo and other martial arts sports as simply sports. They have strick regulations to ensure the safety and to keep them as sports. Now we have a big divide in the mentality about this in some Japanese families with long traditions. Some like the sports mentality, others consider this modern martial arts watered down and prefer them to revert the old teachings where they weren't a sport but training for war and fighting. And in all this there's a dissonance in the values, do or don't do in this traditions which is reflected in how they portray Shiho and the Nishizumi school, that most westeners might not understand. This old schools want the old ways, they want to be ruthless to achieve victory, yet act within the confines of their honor system.

[Wild Goose]

tl;dr, we're all going around in circles and Sumeragi is sticking to his/her/it's own guns, which I can kinda respect, even if I sincerely think that he/she/it is wrong.

That said, it's the exact mindset that Shiho is following, so *shrug*.

Actually, Kamui, if you think of it, the disagreement in viewpoint between Random Wanderer and Sumeragi is a self demonstrating example of the differences in opinion between Kuromine and the Nishizumi-ryu, and everyone else.

Anyhow, on Episode 10 - another breather episode, but nicely done, and I quite liked it, and I'm glad that Hana's mother and her reconciled.

...also, this may just be me, but my impression of Hana's flowers was that it was a stylized representation of a tank getting blown up, with fire all over the place.

Edit: I just realised. They're at the foot of Mount Fuji. The JGSDF's Fuji School Brigade is located there...

... they're in combat with Kuromine at Japan's OPFOR. Holy shit. No wonder Yukari calls it the Holy Land of tanks!

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by willx

Also, are there any medics or staff on hand to rescue people when they are in danger? Recovery of damaged vehicles? I'd like all of these points addressed. It doesn't seem like it would make a ton of sense if it was the responsibility of a Kendo team to rush in and "rescue" their own members during a match.



Outlook remains positive

In Little Army manga, when one tank of Maho's team fall to water, a rescure team on the way but wouldn't make in time, so the other team's flag tank rush to rescure that tank it is mean Maho's team got victory already, but she just keep order to shoot that flag tank.

Originally Posted by Kamui04

And all this stems from a misunderstanding on the japanese mentality about martial arts sports. Today we see Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kendo and other martial arts sports as simply sports. They have strick regulations to ensure the safety and to keep them as sports. Now we have a big divide in the mentality about this in some Japanese families with long traditions. Some like the sports mentality, others prefer them to revert the old teachings where they weren't a sport but training for war and fighting. And in all this there's a dissonance in the values, do or don't do in this traditions which is reflected in how they portray Shiho and the Nishizumi school, that most westeners might not understand. This old schools want the old ways, they want to be ruthless to achieve victory, yet act within the confines of their honor system.

Westener? I'm an Asian, more correct Vietnamese, history of Vietnam is thousand years of war between with other empires and civil wars itself. The Trịnh-Nguyễn era's Warlords War is even longer and bloodier than Japanese's Warring States era with millions soldiers died (more death than Vietnam War era, even if include 2 million Vietnamese died in Japanese invasion of WW2 - but this don't make Vietnamese hate Japanese like Korean because they are too familiar with it). The system of tradition warring clans in Vietnam is not lesser than Japan despite they're no longer exist under Communist rule.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

In Little Army manga, when one tank of Maho's team fall to water, a rescure team on the way but wouldn't make in time, so the other team's flag tank rush to rescure that tank it is mean Maho's team got victory already, but she just keep order shoot that flag tank.

Sorry are we reading and watching different material? Are you basing that on what you've seen or what you are assuming? I think that is part of the basis for all these arguments. Were the actions necessary and what is the expectation of a practitioner of Senshado. These remain unanswered.

Reply hazy, ask again later