Psycho-Pass - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I hope you realize that many humans, probably even most humans, sincerely reject that nihilistic worldview. Plenty of humans are not merely "pretending".

I don't believe that life is pointless or that existence is pointless.

Fair point. I won't ask you or anyone to believe me, but I will say that there is a certain aesthetic value to nihilism and emptiness that I wholeheartedly appreciate. It's a bit similar to Buddhism in a sense.

Originally Posted by Dengar

But once you start making your own decisions, pretend or otherwise, there's no way you can point to someone or something else and say it's their fault. I mean, to "stop pretending" only when it becomes inconvenient to keep up your "charade"? Am I weird for thinking that's rather warped?

Well, sure. Conventionally, the person who makes the decision is at fault, but that's just it. I see it as no more than a convention that the law strictly reinforces and supports. In that sense, there's nothing strange with pinning the blame on the decision-maker. You can certainly blame the torture victim for spilling his guts or the victims of brainwashing or hypnosis for letting themselves get controlled. All I'm saying is that the human will is much more fragile and susceptible to manipulation than you seem to be implying.

[Dengar]

I'm just not willing to absolve them of responsibility just because they're too pathetic to think for themselves.

[felix]

I think I know part of the reason why Makshima has his psycho pass so clear. He probably doesn't think of humans... as well humans. To him everything might very well be so corrupt "people" might as well be "walking robots"

[garbage]

hmm postings on psychopass seems to be picking up last few episodes well episodes and story is getting more interesting so...
wow that was......so brutal...so urubochi....and my mind cant even begin to register how those watching could just stand there doing nothing... that's how far their society is (...have fallen?)
but great episode, Makishima now shown to be more than just doing it for the thrills and actually does it for socio-political reasons. he still a cold-hearted bastard though.
Kougami still the Boss detective of the squad that he is. and akane being akane, clear hued as ever. nice though that this time everyone seems to be contributing to the team. liked how he said " 282...? I'm glad this thing didn't turn into an Eliminator ^^" wait that means masaoka has an even higher "normal" psycho-pass than kougami, since the helmet read kougami.
Loved the OP, IMO better than the 1st. hmm 38 revolver(?) guess he would need it against makishima. And ED ...Egoist nuff said :P >>>fan dakara ..

EDIT :

Originally Posted by Dengar

The Sibyl system is merely a system of measurement, it's the people who have used it in such a way that it turned society into a bunch of zombies. It didn't have to go that way. But it did go that way, because of people.

well to put in my 2 cents, if you're talking about the measurement machine & or technology then yes I would agree with you totally, but then you said " Sibyl SYSTEM"
then i would disagree. for the whole SYSTEM itself already dictates practically everything in their society at this point. it's not just the Dominator or the Hue scanners, but the way of implementing the results, the whole kit and caboodle, the supercomputers doing the analyzing, the school system, the therapy clinics, the director calling the shots, practically all their manufacturing systems are subsystems of Sibyl, heck even Akane &company at the MWPSB are part and parcel of the Sibyl system and works to keep it's SYSTEM operational. The Sibyl SYSTEM perpetuates itself and keeps people like sheep. so it is the problem at this point. of course there are a few like akane & makishima who could bypass this without being labeled latent criminal, but they're what 1 in a million, though luck getting the system to change.

now if you meant the Technology behind Sibyl is not to blame then yeah sure you have my support. Also if you think that technology would be better with some adjustments changes in implementation then that's no longer the Sibyl Sytem we're talking about here. I think this is probably were the plot might go. some sort of compromise, or a gradual change into a Different kind of system.

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm just not willing to absolve them of responsibility just because they're too pathetic to think for themselves.

I guess the question here though is, are the average people in the psychopass world even capable of really thinking for themselves?
so why is education so important...just like asking a baby or a brain dead person to be responsible for his/her action. ( oops brain dead people can't move, what is the politically correct way of calling really really stupid people...>.<)

( hmm feels like a poke on current trends in society today from the author ehehe....)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by felix

I think I know part of the reason why Makshima has his psycho pass so clear. He probably doesn't think of humans... as well humans. To him everything might very well be so corrupt "people" might as well be "walking robots"

I'm pretty sure vandalism is also frowned upon in PP's society.

[warita]

Originally Posted by Rayneing

And of course, I have to see where this is all going. I hate that someone as despicable and reprehensible as Makishima actually has a point about their society - but the methods he employs to bring about his message are chilling to the very core.

The thing is, that sometimes this is what it takes to yank people out of letargy. If we have a close look at whats going on in the real world out there (for those who are aware of the changes) it is a sad picture too. Democracy is has become a hollow phrase these days and rights are being taken away from us, little by little, allowing people to get used to the new situation before another right gets taken away from them. And nobody complains, because we all consider it normal, dont we? In order for people to wake up from the letergy, something BIG must happen, something that finally opens their eyes.

And thats what Makishima is doing. The more appaling, the more shocking, the more bone chilling, the better!

[Cosmic Eagle]

Lol...so the "good citizen" is one that stares expressionlessly at someone getting bashed to death and films the whole thing while doing nothing else....You know, such level of apathy can be considered sign of CC too...but whatever, it's clear whoever designed Sybil are pretty dubious themselves

Also, behold, the ultimate laziness in police patrol....Big Head Dumbo to your rescue www

Logically, Makishima is going to be well-trained in close combat, since you can't shoot him, you have to melee him


Anyway, the urban scenery in this ep is lovely.

I wanted to jump in there and tell the people to do something

More like let the society continue to rot...such patheticness should not be allowed to exist

well, we'll see in the coming eps whether they can demonstrate if they are deserving of a better world.

There's no point screaming at them to change if deep down inside, they are still rotten. The change must come from within themselves

Originally Posted by totoum

The thing is,this scene is closer to the the real world than you might think,real life examples might not be as extreme but there is something called the "bystander effect" that is talked about in this news report

That scene reminded me of that.

I could never actually understand those...just a quick phone call to the police...If you are too worried about trouble and want to leave fine, just make an emergency call first then get out of there. How hard is it..

This is, perhaps, what people are referring to when they say this is the prove Sybil is wrong. However, what I drew from this scene is that these people lived in a society with a much stronger sense of security then we have, where you don't have to worry about locking doors, where you can trust people you have never met before. Does a person who could live like this really lost a part of his humanity? (That is, disregarding other non-security related downsides of Sybil) IMO this is in fact a huge benefit, possibly the one of the most significant benefit we have seen that the Sybil System brought to society.

It's not only that...it's knowing how no one can jump the guy and dogpile him because they'd get locked away or executed. That's an emasculated society.....how can that be good?

[Ultramarinus]

Originally Posted by warita

The thing is, that sometimes this is what it takes to yank people out of letargy. If we have a close look at whats going on in the real world out there (for those who are aware of the changes) it is a sad picture too. Democracy is has become a hollow phrase these days and rights are being taken away from us, little by little, allowing people to get used to the new situation before another right gets taken away from them. And nobody complains, because we all consider it normal, dont we? In order for people to wake up from the letergy, something BIG must happen, something that finally opens their eyes.

And thats what Makishima is doing. The more appaling, the more shocking, the more bone chilling, the better!

Eh, not really aside from the fact that PP's writer just wants to have a struggle between the lawful stupid protagonists and chaotic evil clever antagonist. It doesn't make much sense but serves to confuse viewers on who's really right.

GitS SAC 2nd Gig had a way, way better setup with a 3-way struggle between lawful neutral protagonists , lawful evil antagonist and chaotic good anti-hero. Revolutionary anti-hero was used by lawful evil to its purposes at times. It all made sense and was a rather believable setup.

But well, I'm still content with PP considering that quality cyberpunk is a very rare find.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

Eh, not really aside from the fact that PP's writer just wants to have a struggle between the lawful stupid protagonists and chaotic evil clever antagonist.

Why do you think the protagonists are stupid? They seem reasonably smart to me. If anything, Kougami is an impressively fast and resourceful thinker.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why do you think the protagonists are stupid? They seem reasonably smart to me. If anything, Kougami is an impressively fast and resourceful thinker.

I don't think he means that they're not intelligent when he say lawful stupid. It's more like a reference to their unquestioning loyalty to the system.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

Eh, not really aside from the fact that PP's writer just wants to have a struggle between the lawful stupid protagonists and chaotic evil clever antagonist. It doesn't make much sense but serves to confuse viewers on who's really right.

Why would they be lawful stupid, I wonder? Because they continue to hold on to their Dominators despite clear evidence that the system is flawed?

You should be well aware that doing otherwise is tantamount to committing rebellion against the system. Not to say that such a move isn't already called for, but these things should be planned well, especially given that doing so would instantly label them as criminals.

[warita]

Originally Posted by Qilin

You should be well aware that doing otherwise is tantamount to committing rebellion against the system. Not to say that such a move isn't already called for, but these things should be planned well, especially given that doing so would instantly label them as criminals.

Yupp, I agree. It is easy to say you see a flaw in something and it calls for action, but it is not as easy to take the right steps. What would be the right step here anyways? Go to the higher ups and complain about the situation, critisize the system and by doing so risk getting locked up in the correctional facility again or slamming the dominator on the desk and say you are quitting.... with the same end result?

Rather than clinging to a flawed system, they are trying to figure out what to do next and it is not really their job to change the system..... they are there to try to stop criminal as best as they can, which right now is proving to be really challenging.

[Ultramarinus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why do you think the protagonists are stupid? They seem reasonably smart to me. If anything, Kougami is an impressively fast and resourceful thinker.

He is, but what I meant was..

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I don't think he means that they're not intelligent when he say lawful stupid. It's more like a reference to their unquestioning loyalty to the system.

This.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Why would they be lawful stupid, I wonder? Because they continue to hold on to their Dominators despite clear evidence that the system is flawed?

You should be well aware that doing otherwise is tantamount to committing rebellion against the system. Not to say that such a move isn't already called for, but these things should be planned well, especially given that doing so would instantly label them as criminals.

The stupidity part was due to how they are the enforcers of Sybil, willingly or not. Or more correctly, Sybil is stupid. The system has glaring flaws that has been demonstrated over and over since the starting episode. They rely too much on hue checks and don't really care about classic methods that are their only option versus people that constantly operate over the flaws and inadequacies of Sybil. Hanging on to dominators till the bitter end is a showcase example of this. They were practically unarmed vs a serial killer and armed robbers whole episode, it's only sheer luck they didn't get killed so far.

What's even more funny is how the director asked them to capture a guy that was confirmed to be immune vs dominators. How does she think they'll capture him? With bad language and fists? How did the previous serial killer get captured in the first place if he was immune as well?

[Ultramarinus]

What's really thought-provoking about this episode was after I checked the discussion boards around the Net, two types of comments were disturbing:

- People who agreed with Makishima and said it's alright to sacrifice third-party lives as long as it's for a 'good cause':

I don't think this needs much explanation, these kinds of people have been the fuel of every bloody ruler in history. You just need to present a cause to their taste. Pass the worth threshold of a fellow human's life and you can kill millions, then get still hailed as a hero.

- People who ironically are outraged vs Sybil and approved Makishima because it supposedly numbed people to cattle status when they're ignorant of the infamous bystander effect that has been around for some time, even before the advent of computers:

Just read the story of Kitty Genovese, practically the street scene that happened way back in 1968. So much for blaming the digital age. Then again, I especially am boggled by how people casually propose that not intervening is 'unbelievable', while NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM (read like over a hundred posts like that today, actually looked for it because it really bugged me) said that THEY WOULD intervene. Not one person. That's exactly a major factor of the bystander effect in the first place, you ASSUME that somebody else is going to intervene. Heck, this I have witnessed many times myself. We have a power outage, I mention that we should report it. My family members have for the majority of times respond, saying "somebody else must have already done it, leave it alone". I call, ask them if it was reported, the answer is "no, nobody had reported it so far". This for just a mere power outage.

Then you have a MURDER case, which would cause you MUCH legal work, obligation and heh, even a chance to get murdered yourself just because you testified. Not to mention that you get nothing for the risk, effort and trouble that comes with it. My uncle personally told a story that he was assumed to hit a person with car just because he brought him to hospital. Now imagine how many people would do anything about just an accident first.

Then, imagine a case of LIVE HOMICIDE IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES. The perpetrator has a hammer. What would YOU do? Not your EXPECTATIONS of somebody else. Well, I can imagine like 90% of the people staying the hell away for sure. And if anybody would actually rush in to topple the killer, he/she must have been somebody practically who would get highest medals of honor if he has been a battle. It would literally take balls of steel to go in unarmed like that. And before somebody first makes a move, any potential person to intervene would hesitate. It's A LOT different to make a move in a 1vs1 or 2vs1 situation. It's totally different than protecting yourself, which was the difference between the woman in the pharmacy who was assaulted herself and the bystanders in the street. When it's your own life, you have nothing to lose. You have everything to lose if it's someone else's.

So yeah, I'm very disappointed in how people are oblivious to the bystander effect and don't make a statement about today's society and themselves. It's not just pure fiction, it's very real and we're all living factors of it. If I were to believe the Netizens, every single one thinks the other one is a good samaritan Rambo that would intervene. I'll start myself: I'd probably be scared shitless to intervene myself and most I'd do would probably be calling the police if I saw someone getting hammered on the street.

[Triple_R]

To be fair, I get the impression that old-fashioned guns have been completely outlawed in the world of Psycho-Pass. Notice how even the criminals in this episode use every sort of weapon except a gun. They use knifes, bats, hammers (or whatever that blunt instrument was), even pens for crying out loud. But no guns. The only person in this entire anime that I can recall seeing use an old-fashioned gun was the Cyborg Hunter. And being an over 100 years old Cyborg that likes using the bones of teenage girls for smoke pipes makes him a rather unique case.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sibyl system decided to rid the world of guns as one of its first acts. Less guns = Less violence = More Psychologically healthy society. That might have been the thought behind it.

Spoiler for Shin Sekai Yori comparison:

You can think of it as being comparable to the "Death Feedback" element in SSY. In both cases - Death Feedback and widespread confiscation/banning of guns - The hope was that it would help prevent people from killing one another.

[Ultramarinus]

I cannot imagine any kind of government having no sure-fire personal weapons, EVER. Not in a setting like that, maybe 1000 years later when we're all in energy-form avatars or something. They would have some backup weaponry somewhere for extraordinary cases like this, not to mention the military. The director should have supplied them as soon as she ordered the capture.

Kagari quite literally warned them that they're going in unarmed vs violent suspects. Not even the super dumb future cops of Demolition Man was completely unarmed, they carried stun batons.

[ThereminVox]

I'm far too late to the party to add any truly unique perspective to the discussion, but let me just say that I found the portrayal of the public murder to be... let's go with "sublime."

The juxtaposed twin horrors of the drone and the bystanders was brilliant. The revoltingly alien incomprehension of Sibyl, and the shamefully familiar diffusion of responsibility among humanity. Complete opposites, but both utterly impotent when they're needed most.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

The stupidity part was due to how they are the enforcers of Sybil, willingly or not. Or more correctly, Sybil is stupid. The system has glaring flaws that has been demonstrated over and over since the starting episode. They rely too much on hue checks and don't really care about classic methods that are their only option versus people that constantly operate over the flaws and inadequacies of Sybil. Hanging on to dominators till the bitter end is a showcase example of this. They were practically unarmed vs a serial killer and armed robbers whole episode, it's only sheer luck they didn't get killed so far.

Right. Well, you won't get a peep from me regarding Sybil being flawed because it most certainly is, but you have to understand that Makishima is an anomaly. Before him, it was utterly unthinkable that anyone could possibly commit a crime without being judged by the Sybil system. To add to that, the idea of having a backup system within the public consciousness wasn't permitted. After all, for Sybil to work, people had to have an absolute, unshakable trust in the system. They had to believe in the perfection of Sybil, even if it wasn't, to the point that any sort of contingency planning would have been viewed as pointless.

There's a lot more at stake here than a few Enforcers' lives if they happen to back out on that philosophy now. It's very intricate really. You have a society tiptoeing over a knife's edge, so it makes sense to struggle and retain your balance even if it seems futile, especially given the alternative.

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

What's even more funny is how the director asked them to capture a guy that was confirmed to be immune vs dominators. How does she think they'll capture him? With bad language and fists? How did the previous serial killer get captured in the first place if he was immune as well?

I admit that I also found this somewhat questionable, but I do get the reasoning behind it. Once again, we're not just talking about a few lives anymore. We are in fact talking about adopting practices that would shake the very assumptions that the entire society is based on. Yes, Sybil is flawed, but abandoning it right then and there would have lead to the worst possible outcome, which would be widespread panic and anarchy.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Right. Well, you won't get a peep from me regarding Sybil being flawed because it most certainly is, but you have to understand that Makishima is an anomaly. Before him, it was utterly unthinkable that anyone could possibly commit a crime without being judged by the Sybil system.

He actually isn't the first. One in two millions means 60+ of them, assuming a population similar to today's Japan.

To add to that, the idea of having a backup system within the public consciousness wasn't permitted. After all, for Sybil to work, people had to have an absolute, unshakable trust in the system.

No, they really don't. We know our own institutions are imperfect. We still go about our business. Letting it get to the point where society will break if the public at large discovers the obvious (that nothing's perfect) was stupidity of the highest order to start with.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He actually isn't the first. One in two millions means 60+ of them, assuming a population similar to today's Japan.

Well, if they've successfully dealt with such dangerous characters effectively before, then that would in fact justify the nonchalant attitude the higher-ups are taking, wouldn't it?.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, they really don't. We know our own institutions are imperfect. We still go about our business. Letting it get to the point where society will break if the public at large discovers the obvious (that nothing's perfect) was stupidity of the highest order to start with.

That's what makes all the difference here. People have to believe in the system's perfection for it to work, and the fact is that most of them do. This is a system that nurtures and depends on the ignorance of the public to work, so it's not really appropriate to compare it with the democratic governing institutions that we're familiar with.

But really, whether or not it was a flawed system to start with doesn't really say much about the intelligence of the people upholding that system. By sheer inertia alone, they are compelled to keep the system going even if they have doubts regarding it.