Current Israeli-Palestinian Crisis ( May 2021)

[ganbaru]

I am surprised than nobody started a thread yet.

Cable News Stuns With Accurate Reporting On The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP82OVX_U-U

U.S. sends envoy as Israel-Gaza barrages spiral, Hamas commander killed
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...es-2021-05-12/

Israel declares curfew in Arab-Jewish town hit by violence
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...re-2021-05-12/

Top Israeli rabbi urges restraint amid reports of Jews attacking Arab citizens
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ns-2021-05-12/

[Key Board]

They keep gradually pushing the border because they know they can get away with it.

And the US will turn a blind eye away, because our middle east military strategy requires Israel

//

[ramlaen]

Hamas is once again using the populace of Gaza as human shields as it attempts to kill Israelis.

[ganbaru]

Palestinian TELLS THE TRUTH On CNN & Gets ARRESTED For It
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF1ZJdwqCLQ

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Hamas is once again using the populace of Gaza as human shields as it attempts to kill Israelis.

And the IDF is more than happy to shoot ( and overkill) back. The rockets use by Hamas aren't much than ''shoot and pray'' (especially now than Israel have the Iron Dome) while the IDF IN the past did target hospitals , UN designatet bomb shelter and the only power plant in Gaza on purpose. To pretend than it is only self defence from the IDF is quite absurde.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Key Board

They keep gradually pushing the border because they know they can get away with it.

And the US will turn a blind eye away, because our middle east military strategy requires Israel

Might as well close the thread because this summary covers everything.

I think the only thing that's missing here is that PM Netanyahu is currently undergoing a corruption trial and has failed to form government for the 4th election in two years. Now its the opposition's turn to form government and...

whoops, we've provoked Hamas to attack us and now we've got no choice but to launch full scale war (Even though Hamas asked for a ceasefire)!

The most recent conflict was largely avoidable but its all political.

And for the record, while it sucks that Hamas attacked, Israel is the sole instigator and perpetrator of this incident.

EDIT: The late Michael Brooks on Israel:

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by OH&S

And for the record, while it sucks that Hamas attacked, Israel is the sole instigator and perpetrator of this incident.

Some do even argue than Hamas's action were self-defence or the only thing they can do as the power-balance is so bad and Israel don't care about international law.
One thing than can hardly be argued against is than the years of illegal settlement, economic estranglement and destruction make the so-call two-state solution impossible as any palestinian state would be barely more than a ghetto.

[OH&S]

Obscene power imbalance is the key phrase for the whole conflict. Palestine quite literally has zero options for resistance aside from Hamas but if they do anything close to a measly fraction of the misery that the IDF has caused they are immediately rebuffed as terrorists; as if the IDF isn't the bigger terrorist threat in the region (...well there is also the US...).

Any two state solution is impossible without the US and Israeli governments agreeing to pull the borders back to pre 1967 and long term dumping of aid to Palestine (cutting the entire military aid to Israel would be a start). This will never happen as its politically infeasible for any US President to do so (as well as military and strategic reasons). Quite literally the only one who had the will to solve the issue was Bernie Sanders. And Israel's government is filled with right wing nutjobs that want a one state solution and to expel all of the Palestinians.

EDIT: https://twitter.com/colinkalmbacher/...71627290300418

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Some do even argue than Hamas's action were self-defence or the only thing they can do as the power-balance is so bad and Israel don't care about international law.
One thing than can hardly be argued against is than the years of illegal settlement, economic estranglement and destruction make the so-call two-state solution impossible as any palestinian state would be barely more than a ghetto.

Think about the fact that the 'power balance' argument is framed around Israel being in the wrong because Hamas hasn't been terribly successful in its efforts to murder civilians.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Think about the fact that the 'power balance' argument is framed around Israel being in the wrong because Hamas hasn't been terribly successful in its efforts to murder civilians while Israel themselves have been super effective in their efforts to murder Palestinians.

Fixed that for you. Hamas can't do shit to Israel but Israel can and are committing genocide against the Palestinians. Its like you purposely end all your thoughts at the word Hamas.

Images

Timeline of Deaths in Israel-Palestine conflict (2000-2015)

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

EDIT: I don't use the word genocide lightly. Apartheid is also an apt description.

https://twitter.com/ryepastrami/stat...37181908938759

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

Obscene power imbalance is the key phrase for the whole conflict. Palestine quite literally has zero options for resistance aside from Hamas but if they do anything close to a measly fraction of the misery that the IDF has caused they are immediately rebuffed as terrorists; as if the IDF isn't the bigger terrorist threat in the region (...well there is also the US...).

Any two state solution is impossible without the US and Israeli governments agreeing to pull the borders back to pre 1967 and long term dumping of aid to Palestine (cutting the entire military aid to Israel would be a start). This will never happen as its politically infeasible for any US President to do so (as well as military and strategic reasons). Quite literally the only one who had the will to solve the issue was Bernie Sanders. And Israel's government is filled with right wing nutjobs that want a one state solution and to expel all of the Palestinians.

EDIT: https://twitter.com/colinkalmbacher/...71627290300418

Hamas is government of Gaza while Israeli government administer Israel. Military conflict between the two are essentially war. And to objectively analyze the situation it is Hamas that start attacking Israel.

[ganbaru]

Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media
https://apnews.com/article/israel-we...e5fc2f8c7d8a79

An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday, the latest step by the military to silence reporting from the territory amid its battle with the militant group Hamas.

The strike came nearly an hour after the military ordered people to evacuate the building, which also housed Al-Jazeera, other offices and residential apartments. The strike brought the entire 12-story building down, collapsing with a gigantic cloud of dust. There was no immediate explanation for why it was attacked.

I wonder how Israel will try to pass that one as acceptable.

Originally Posted by c933103

Hamas is government of Gaza while Israeli government administer Israel. Military conflict between the two are essentially war. And to objectively analyze the situation it is Hamas that start attacking Israel.

And others would argue than the years of illegal settlement on palestinian territory by israelians colonist suppported by the IDF as a invasion

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by c933103

Hamas is government of Gaza while Israeli government administer Israel. Military conflict between the two are essentially war. And to objectively analyze the situation it is Hamas that start attacking Israel.

Its laughable how confident you are in that incorrect statement. Sure, Hamas fired rockets at them first in this year's conflict. But did you not pay any attention to what happened just before that? What was the reason Hamas cited for launching their attack? It wasn't random. Israel was the first aggressor.

Its frankly insulting to claim objectivity here. Do your thoughts terminate at the mention of Hamas as well?

And before anyone puts words in my mouth: Hamas, bad.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

And others would argue than the years of illegal settlement on palestinian territory by israelians colonist suppported by the IDF as a invasion

Sure. One side bad =\= Another side good.

Originally Posted by OH&S

Its laughable how confident you are in that incorrect statement. Sure, Hamas fired rockets at them first in this year's conflict. But did you not pay any attention to what happened just before that? What was the reason Hamas cited for launching their attack? It wasn't random. Israel was the first aggressor.

Its frankly insulting to claim objectivity here. Do your thoughts terminate at the mention of Hamas as well?

And before anyone puts words in my mouth: Hamas, bad.

Hamas attacked due to the escalating situation in Jerusalem, where Palestinian are being hurt. But if you think people of same ethnicity with your country being hurt by a foreign government within conflicted territory between two other governments, in this case Israeli government and Palestinian Authority over the West Bank, then you would be supporting idea of like China firing rockets against America due to Asian in America being mistreated by local law enforcement.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by c933103

Hamas attacked due to the escalating situation in Jerusalem, where Palestinian are being hurt. But if you think people of same ethnicity with your country being hurt by a foreign government within conflicted territory between two other governments, in this case Israeli government and Palestinian Authority over the West Bank, then you would be supporting idea of like China firing rockets against America due to Asian in America being mistreated by local law enforcement.

Weren't you the one saying a few posts earlier than Hamas was the government of Gaza? If so that would mean than tey are responsible for the security of their citizens (at least in Gaza) And as the situation was in both in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas was more involved than what you seem to think. Your example is quite faulty .


BTW, I am of the opinion than in most conflict you will be lucky to find a ''Good Guy'', you will have to settle for one than is less horrible.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Weren't you the one saying a few posts earlier than Hamas was the government of Gaza? If so that would mean than tey are responsible for the security of their citizens (at least in Gaza) And as the situation was in both in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas was more involved than what you seem to think. Your example is quite faulty .


BTW, I am of the opinion than in most conflict you will be lucky to find a ''Good Guy'', you will have to settle for one than is less horrible.

I mean I don't think Jerusalem is located inside Gaza. And unless I am mistaken, Israel only started turning their force toward Gaza after Hamas start attacking Israel over the conflict in Jerusalem

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by OH&S

Fixed that for you. Hamas can't do shit to Israel but Israel can and are committing genocide against the Palestinians. Its like you purposely end all your thoughts at the word Hamas.

Images

Timeline of Deaths in Israel-Palestine conflict (2000-2015)

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

EDIT: I don't use the word genocide lightly. Apartheid is also an apt description.

https://twitter.com/ryepastrami/stat...37181908938759

Your entire argument is framed around the absurd notion that because Israel is better at defending itself than Hamas is at attacking it that Hamas should have free reign to try and kill Israelis.

That you would even (mis)use the term genocide shows a willful ignorance of the matter.

It is also noteworthy that your graphic makes no distinction between civilians and soldiers.

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media
https://apnews.com/article/israel-we...e5fc2f8c7d8a79


I wonder how Israel will try to pass that one as acceptable.



And others would argue than the years of illegal settlement on palestinian territory by israelians colonist suppported by the IDF as a invasion

The AP knew that Hamas operated out of their building but provided cover in order to preserve their access to Gaza.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-story/383262/

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by c933103

I mean I don't think Jerusalem is located inside Gaza. And unless I am mistaken, Israel only started turning their force toward Gaza after Hamas start attacking Israel over the conflict in Jerusalem

Given that this conflict has been going on for roughly ~60 years with both sides going at it willfully, it makes absolutely no sense to only look at the most recent conflict to place blame. Palaestina and Israel have a long list of attacking both military and civilan targets. Comparing death tolls makes about as much sense as discussing who made more meters progress in trench warfare during WW1.

Either way discussion in this thread seems to only revolve around deciding who is "more wrong" rather than discussing how to potentially solve the conflict. I can't stop anyone from doing that but it will just end up going in a circle that will waste everyone's time.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Either way discussion in this thread seems to only revolve around deciding who is "more wrong" rather than discussing how to potentially solve the conflict.

The two solutions than I see most of the time (the one-state and the two-state solution) do not seem much possible now. The two-states would leave the palestinians a failed state after all the territories the isrellian have already stolen. And the One-state solution is another can of worms, one than isn't likely to turn right.

Is there others solutions than are being proposed?

[c933103]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Given that this conflict has been going on for roughly ~60 years with both sides going at it willfully, it makes absolutely no sense to only look at the most recent conflict to place blame. Palaestina and Israel have a long list of attacking both military and civilan targets. Comparing death tolls makes about as much sense as discussing who made more meters progress in trench warfare during WW1.

Either way discussion in this thread seems to only revolve around deciding who is "more wrong" rather than discussing how to potentially solve the conflict. I can't stop anyone from doing that but it will just end up going in a circle that will waste everyone's time.

I think you are misquoting as I didn't mention anything about death toll and I am not trying to say which side have more wrong either.
As for looking at current vs older past, I think given the subject of discussion is the current escalating conflict, it is helpful to look at the current cluse given old conflicts wouldn't suddenly arise for no reason.
As for "both sides going at it willfully", I think one must question what is the meaning of willfully here. It feel like one who lose a game of mahjong want to overturn the result and thus push the game to continue.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by c933103

As for "both sides going at it willfully", I think one must question what is the meaning of willfully here. It feel like one who lose a game of mahjong want to overturn the result and thus push the game to continue.

Interesting way to pull it, but could it be than this time the one keeping the game going is the one on top, wanting to increase its gain? Of course you could be right and maybe the losing side it the one keeping the game tryin to avoid the consequence of a loss.