2014-09-29, 18:59 | Link #34801 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
|
|
2014-09-29, 20:02 | Link #34802 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
HongKong have the rule of law, China doesn't. China kept up with appearances for as long as it is convenient, but at some point the Rule OF Law would mean they have to start killing people to keep others in line. It is the limits of China's growth, that they are bumping into.
__________________
|
|
2014-09-29, 20:56 | Link #34804 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
I hope PRC would be a bit smarter this time around... |
|
2014-09-29, 21:12 | Link #34805 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
Rule of Law means Law is King. China doesn't do that. What HongKong is demanding is essentially not acceptable.
__________________
|
|
2014-09-29, 21:49 | Link #34806 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
The main thing is, HK is held up as a shining example of one country two systems that China is using to court Taiwan and to a lesser extent the separatist regions. If it losses control then this showcase is gone. Just a question, does the WTO treaty have any clauses on the imposing of sanctions for any reason on a member country by another member country? |
|
2014-09-29, 21:55 | Link #34807 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2014-09-29, 22:04 | Link #34809 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
You know, the whole thing with the Rule of Law is really quite accidental. The British Empire ended up with the Rule of Law because they kept their Monarchy. The entire point of RoL is to make sure the king/queen is never above the law, so the aristocrats can keep power. The aristocrats became more inclusive over time until they become "everybody".
In China, they destroyed their Monarchy. But because of that the absolute power of the Emperor just get transferred to the Absolute Power of the RoC government, and after the civil war the Communist Party. China doesn't have the Rule of Law because there is no incentive to keep the rulers in check. Had the Emperor be left on the throne with reduced powers, this might not have happened.
__________________
|
2014-09-29, 22:13 | Link #34810 | ||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
I'm not confident in the CCP's willingness to send in troops when there are still hundreds of thousands of demonstrators active. Remember that at Tiananmen they waited until like 90% of the original crowd was gone. Here, much of the crowd may stay around for a long time until they get what they want (or take what they want). If the CCP does not act in such a situation, it risks allowing a precedent of resistance to be set, which could well spread to the mainland. If it does commit the resources needed to pacify Hong Kong, it would cause the Chinese economy to take a hit and given the priorities of the CCP in the last two decades, that is NOT a good outcome for them at all. At the very least, the people of Hong Kong need to keep standing up for what is theirs. If they stay there long enough, they can get what they want even if the CCP does not allow it officially. Quote:
Last edited by LKK; 2014-09-30 at 07:45. Reason: use edit button rather than post twice. posts merged. |
||
2014-09-29, 22:41 | Link #34811 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
South Korea? The first ruler copied the Japanese system. He was trained by the Japanese. And Japan of course, de-powered their own Monarchy too. The main thing is the difference between replacing a monarch, taking the power for yourself, and keeping the Monarch but making sure he can't hurt you, which ended up leading to the rule of law unintentionally.
__________________
|
|
2014-09-29, 22:45 | Link #34812 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
Germany had the Kaiser, who lost his rule at the end of the First World War.
The United States system is an offshoot of the English/British system following a revolution in the late 18th century. South Korea has its own old kingdom from before the Japanese annexed the place, plus the Emperor of Japan until the end of the Second World War.
__________________
|
2014-09-29, 23:02 | Link #34813 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
|
Uh, guys, the Rule of Law thing is a pretty prominent theme for the liberal philosophers that moved away from the Enlightenment "enlightened monarch" concept. It's not an accident of history. It's pretty deeply theorized by the time some pesky rebels implemented it for real in the New World. Just because Britain's a mess doesn't mean the concept is inherently some bastard child of the Hanoverians.
Chinese political traditions followed a different evolution for most of its history, sure, but they imported plenty during the revolution that toppled the Qing, and it's not like communism is some native Chinese thing that Mao built from the ground up. They may "speak a different language" but popular sovereignty isn't exactly quantum physics. There's really no need to push that "accident" notion too far. Quote:
If they start gunning the masses down like it's 1989, it would likely provoke massive sanctions or even dramatic realignment of many Asian countries away from China -- not to mention destroying Hong Kong's economic worth effectively overnight. It's a different matter if a few dissident leaders get arrested or even murdered. The stakes, sadly, won't be high enough. I do wish for democracy in Hong Kong to triumph. I doubt I would have the courage to go out there and stand up for myself, my people and my future the way tens if not hundreds of thousands of the people of Hong Kong are doing, against the unpredictable wrath of the mightiest oppressive regime in the world, all for rather conservative demands and almost timid desires for Beijing to fulfill its promises. |
|
2014-09-29, 23:34 | Link #34814 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
But all things considered, I would not expect a bloody massacre to happen, not in HK. |
|
2014-09-29, 23:41 | Link #34815 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2014-09-30, 04:16 | Link #34816 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 36
|
Quote:
Anyway, currently, the streets are peaceful, the protesters take over the streets in the afternoons and nights, and leave in the morning to get sleep, and then regroup again in the afternoon. I believe the current strategy of the HK government is to let protesters take the streets and try to highlight the protests as disturbing the normal lives of citizens, while letting the protester number dwindle down as time passes. Eventually, the protest could break up or disperse due to the common people turning against the protesters and the small amount of numbers. And I admit, no one can afford to spend energy and time to occupy the streets for an indefinite amount of time. I'll take this week as a maximum. A turning point could be tomorrow, which is a public holiday. Hopefully there will be an extraordinary amount of people going out to protest, which would put extreme pressure on the government to respond immediately, instead of trying to play delay tactics. The organisers of the movement will also announce the plans for the next stage of protest, because they also know they can't afford to carry on the occupation movement indefinitely. Whether the students are going to heed their advice is a different story though. |
|
2014-09-30, 08:38 | Link #34817 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
|
@LoveYouSaber
Best of luck!! and look after yourself! You never know how will China respond from this incident, because China, unfortunately, is still ruled by dictatorship, and the new chairman from China seems like a tough customer.... I have no idea what the outcome will be, but I pray for the democracy to triumph....at the very least, get "689" to step down (by the way, for those who don't know the code "689", it is meant for the chief executive in hk, because he got elected by receiving 689 votes from the pro-beijing committee, in hk, most ppl who don't like the chief executive would rather label him as "689")
__________________
|
2014-09-30, 10:04 | Link #34818 |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
|
Protestors In Hong Kong Clean Up After Protest
Someone should just say that this is a "Japanese style protest" on Weibo for the sake of trolling Beijing.
__________________
|
2014-10-01, 10:54 | Link #34819 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
|
It's highly doubtful that the recent protests in Hong Kong are ones for so-called independence. HongKongers know better than anyone else that a clean break from the mainland in terms of business or political ties would bring about far more severe consequences for their economic wellbeing and possibly political status quo. This movement isn't about autonomy or self-governance either as there hasn't been any major protests like this one under Britain's rule and Hong Kong is the Chinese city with the greatest power to itself.
The quagmire on Hong Kong's political stage is likely a precipitate of the clash between two counteracting forces: the desire of Hong Kong citizens to be free of Beijing's influence and the decreasing role that Hong Kong has on China's political and economic realms. Hong Kong citizens have, perhaps understandably, a morbid fear of being affected by Beijing's political and socioeconomical clout. This is quite readily catalyzed by frequent cases of intrusion and unlawful activities conducted by mainlanders and the general discontent extended against Chinese mainlanders. However, both sides of the dispute know that Hong Kong is unlikely ever going to be completely autonomous or self-sufficient without a third party. Hence, protests are in a way the most effective method to get support from international observers without being brushed aside for being illegitimate. The fact that the protesters have been relatively "violent" in their work have attested to their increasing desperation. On the other hand, China sees Hong Kong as less of a burden and more of a side issue, and hence the rather muted response from Chinese officials. Mix the two together, and out comes an increasingly-violent protest that is expansive on the surface but ultimately feeble at the core. Of course, that doesn't preclude the fact that Beijing should do its best to at least hold talks with the organizers of the movement. |
2014-10-01, 12:47 | Link #34820 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 36
|
Quote:
Having said that, I think the movement is coming to its next important juncture, as student leaders have said if demands are not met, they would have to consider occupying or surrounding government buildings. I fear some people might not be comfortable with this course of action and this could alienate supporters or potential supporters or international observers. On the other hand, I think escalation is the only way to force the government's hand and avoid their delay tactics, so really it's a dilemma... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29448338 |
|
Tags |
current affairs, discussion, international |
|
|