(L) Akame ga kill [Manga]

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

So was each and every Nazi soldier given death sentence by the Allies?

"Each and every Nazi soldier" didn't do something to deserve a death sentence. It was the political party in power, in a government full of corruption and favoritism, so some people joined simply to avoid being seen as a potential enemy or to better the standing of themselves or their families. And there was a war going on, so some soldiers were simply that: soldiers. Not every Nazi soldier had to exterminate a "non-Aryan" to get their swastika.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

So was each and every Nazi soldier given death sentence by the Allies?

What has this question to do with the statement? Nothing.

Should soldiers be held responsible for their actions? Yes.
Do (most of) the Jaegers deserve their death? Yes.
Does it really matter whether Bols is a serial killer or a mass murderer? No.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

What has this question to do with the statement? Nothing.

Should soldiers be held responsible for their actions? Yes.
Do (most of) the Jaegers deserve their death? Yes.
Does it really matter whether Bols is a serial killer or a mass murderer? No.

You refuse to see the point, I see.
I just wanted to say there're situation soldiers are given orders from their high-up which aren't the original reason they join the force for (i.e. order to extermination a certain group of people while the soldiers join the army simply because they want to make a living or to protect their country). In these situation, they either do it or face severed punishment. Blaming soldiers for their superior's orders is completely nonsense, no one IRL did that, every war criminal was accused because they committed the deeds on their own, not by received orders. Honestly, what do you keyboard ethicist want them to do? Rebelling again their superior and government or something?

[Eisdrache]

There is nothing to refuse here as you never had a point to begin with. What are we going to do when some religious fanatic claims he was ordered by God to kill someone? By your logic he would be excused as he was simply following orders.

This all started with the argument whether Bols should be held responsible or not for his actions. He's perfectly aware that his victims are innocents yet he still kills them with the excuse of being ordered to do so. This isn't a war, in fact the only one talking about war is you. We aren't talking about battles with both sides trying to kill each other here, most of Bols' victims were never a threat to him, his family or the empire to begin with. We're talking about one-sided slaughter with the person in charges knowing exactly what he's doing.

Yes it was an order and yes he did it in order to protect his family. Does that make his actions any less excusable? Slightly but the scope of them is already well beyond reasonable.

[Proto]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Blaming soldiers for their superior's orders is completely nonsense, no one IRL did that

I've been trying to stay away from this discussion, but this is just blatantly false as even a cursory Internet search will reveal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superi..._summary_table

Which says that the defense has been used in the past with mixed results, but it has definitely been thrown out of the window multiple times. The most famous and studied case was the use of the Superior order defense during the Nuremberg trials after WW2. In those trials the Allied forces specifically stated in the Nuremberg charter

Originally Posted by Nuremberg charter

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

[Dysprosium]

^Kudos to you for pointing that out.

I was initially flummoxed when that poster made that statement.

Well, Bols did get what he deserved in the end, and his wife and child had to pay for his "sins", as well, sadly.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Proto

I've been trying to stay away from this discussion, but this is just blatantly false as even a cursory Internet search will reveal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superi..._summary_table

Which says that the defense has been used in the past with mixed results, but it has definitely been thrown out of the window multiple times. The most famous and studied case was the use of the Superior order defense during the Nuremberg trials after WW2. In those trials the Allied forces specifically stated in the Nuremberg charter

Well, there're still many argument about the Nuremberg case, because it's too situational. Even one of its judge, General Nikitchenko agreed that it's a decision base on specific circumstances and should not be used wildly or it could lead to injustice in many other cases. After all, soldiers are as much of victims of their higher-up's decisions as civilians so wanting them to take all the blame is just unfair.
But seriously, are we trying to debate about modern international law now? This series's setting is a fantasy medieval-like one where people die left and right on the street and no one has any tiny clue about human rights thus people killing others to survive isn't so strangle here and wanting them to receive some kind of karmic punishment just doesn't seem right.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Well, there're still many argument about the Nuremberg case, because it's too situational. Even one of its judge, General Nikitchenko agreed that it's a decision base on specific circumstances and should not be used wildly or it could lead to injustice in many other cases. After all, soldiers are as much of victims of their higher-up's decisions as civilians so wanting them to take all the blame is just unfair.

The point is, the general consensus about soldiers avoiding responsibility for crimes they commit because they were ordered to do it is that it's not an excuse.

But seriously, are we trying to debate about modern international law now? This series's setting is a fantasy medieval-like one

Even in the 1500's, soldiers were executed for committing crimes they were ordered to commit.

where people die left and right on the street and no one has any tiny clue about human rights

They're perfectly aware of human rights in this setting. The Empire just doesn't care.

thus people killing others to survive isn't so strangle here and wanting them to receive some kind of karmic punishment just doesn't seem right.

Why not? Why should they avoid punishment for their crimes?

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by PSY.Gangnam

^Kudos to you for pointing that out.

I was initially flummoxed when that poster made that statement.

Well, Bols did get what he deserved in the end, and his wife and child had to pay for his "sins", as well, sadly.

No they didn't, their deaths had nothing to with Bols (as far as I remember).

Bols' family was killed purely to show what kind of assholes Wild Hunt were.

Seriously, story-wise I just can't think of any reason they should have died. I keep thinking it was all of part of the plan for Wave and co. to be more relevant up until the manga suddenly entered it's current arc.

[Dysprosium]

Originally Posted by Raviel

No they didn't, their deaths had nothing to with Bols (as far as I remember).

Bols' family was killed purely to show what kind of assholes Wild Hunt were.

Seriously, story-wise I just can't think of any reason they should have died. I keep thinking it was all of part of the plan for Wave and co. to be more relevant up until the manga suddenly entered it's current arc.

No, I'm talking about (negative) karma there.

[dragon213]

I keep wondering, that peace leader or whatever, he said that a bad future awaited Tatsumi and Mine, did he mean the part where she ended up in a coma or that either of them will die or both? Please don't let Tatsumi die again or Mine, I kind of would like for him to come back to his village again, even though he would have to tell what happened to his friends.

But if Mine would die, would Tatsumi (eventually) choose another girl to be with do you think, (I mean from the night raid mostly, so if he would choose one of them then that won't leave much choice in that matter)? But seriously I don't want either of them to die in the manga, Tatsumi is already more awesome than in the anime, even though with the risk of turning into a danger beast if I remember correctly, and I would like to see Mine wake up again.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by dragon213

would Tatsumi (eventually) choose another girl to be with

Akame isn't interested in him romantically, and neither is Najenda. Leone's debatable. She likes to tease him, but I'm not sure she's serious about it.

All in all, Tatsumi doesn't have much of a choice. It's Mine or being forever alone.

[Malicre]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

All in all, Tatsumi doesn't have much of a choice. It's Mine or being forever alone.

WRONG

Its mine or sweet sweet esdeath

[Dysprosium]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Akame isn't interested in him romantically

So? How sure are you it'll remain that way for the rest of the manga, if Mein somehow doesn't make it?

[Malicre]

Mein dies then tatsumi decides to join esdeath in conquering the world. few years later it is shown that tatsumi is sitting on the throne next to his queen with their 2 children sitting in her lap.

Tatsumi x Esdeath forever!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by PSY.Gangnam

So? How sure are you it'll remain that way for the rest of the manga, if Mein somehow doesn't make it?

This is the last arc. If something was going to develop between them, it would have happened already. Now it's too late.

[Dysprosium]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This is the last arc. If something was going to develop between them, it would have happened already. Now it's too late.

That doesn't mean anything cannot happen between them if the author decides to implement a time-skip.

[Hokoga]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Akame isn't interested in him romantically, and neither is Najenda. Leone's debatable. She likes to tease him, but I'm not sure she's serious about it.

It's not impossible for Akame's feeling for him to change over time, assuming that their both alive after this.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

All in all, Tatsumi doesn't have much of a choice. It's Mine or being forever alone.

I wouldn't say forever alone because the dude is a ladykiller.

[Kazu-kun]

Lol, if you guys want to believe that, be my guest.

[Dysprosium]

Originally Posted by Hokoga

I wouldn't say forever alone because the dude is a ladykiller.

Also it's not impossible for Akame's feeling for him to change over time, assuming that their both alive after this.

Its not so much of him being a ladykiller, but his close and deep friendship with Akame.

Assuming Mein doesn't make it, and he and Akame survives after the empire is brought down, its hard to picture him not ending up with Akame.

Then again, if the rumors are true of the manga having a similar ending to the anime, then you can jolly well forget about your OTPs.