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Old 2021-07-06, 01:22   Link #81
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Color me also quite disappointed by that episode. Honestly, I have hard time to even care about the characters because their interactions and personalities aren't really great in my books.
While I understand the first case was basically there to set the tone and acts as a semi world building plot device, it didn't give me a really good impression because Siesta would fare all the same without Kimi. Really, all that convoluted stuff with Siesta planning for Kimi involvement was kind of questionable because, let's face it, Kimi was pretty much pointless from start to finish. If she could plan all that stuff with Bat and his artificial human background, then surely she could simply bring the attaché case herself and deal with Bat with a slightly different plan in mind. Naturally, same goes for the Hanako-san case where Kimi's relevancy was practically null.
She could have brought her weapon to the confrontation with the superhuman terrorist. If she knows everything in advance, and they still have to scramble like mad the way they did both times, you're doing it wrong.

I also feel there's bit of bait and switch where they talk about a detective, but it really isn't a mystery series.
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Old 2021-07-06, 05:59   Link #82
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Every anime works differently, Tantei included. I cannot talk about the plot structure of the story one episode into the series.
While every anime series (and any piece of fiction) works differently, they all follow the basic narrative tenets, which include the introduction and the conclusion or the build up for a potential sequel. Regardless of the genre, director/author style and so forth, a piece of fiction has to build a proper introduction so the audience 1) understands the basic context of the characters and plot 2) grasps the intent of the author through the project image they get from the story 3) cares about the actual story and its characters to a certain degree.
The reason why I'm not giving such slack for Tantei wa Mou, Shindeiru (going with the JP name Tanmoshi) is the fact that it is a rare series that actually get a long premiere episode, not just 2 episodes back to back. This means they had even more leeway to cram content in a more cohesive fashion while keeping the usual episode counts. As such, if a series doesn't give me even room to care about either the characters or the plot after 40-60 minutes, then something is wrong. Again, the introduction is probably not over yet, but if after 2-3 episodes, the series doesn't make you even engaged and curious, then that's on the author, not on the audience.
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Fair enough. But for me, I tend to give lots of leeway to the shows I pick up. I know that anime is simply for entertainment value and, as such, it will be judged simply based on how much I enjoy it. That said, I also adjust my perceptions of the show as much as I can so that the anime watching experience is as enjoyable as possible.
Tanmoshi is definitely no Hyouka, but this so-called step down in quality will never stop me from trying to make a positive experience out of it.
I hate to use that argument, but it isn't the audience that has to justify about "enjoying" a piece of fiction or not. It must be the author responsibility to make things interesting right from the get go. Characters motives, goals, progression and so forth don't have to be spelled outright to the audience, whereas the plot doesn't need to use a shocking twist like an important character death in ep2-3 to immediately hook the audience. But if both the characters and the plot fail to provide value or interest early on, then it isn't surprising that piece of fiction falls flat. And this is why I (and some other people) can't really fully enjoy Tanmoshi because it didn't deliver on both sides.
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
My understanding is that Kimi's ability brings all these different elements together to where Siesta can solve the case and deal with the problem, so a plane trip he's on gets hijacked by a terrorist group who also happen to be funneling drugs through his school.

I thought he was a nice straight man to Siesta's antics, but your mileage may vary.
The problem is that the author thought it was a good idea to make Siesta so OP she even knew about the cases before they even occured. This fact confirmed by the plot has much more issues that you might imagine:
  • As I explained before, Siesta could easily deal with Bat without Kimi whatsoever. If she knew what was going to happen (which she did because she prepared a weapon specifically to counter Bat's abilities), then she could simply arrange everything so she doesn't have to rely on Kimi, who didn't even know the attaché case was necessary for that incident until shit hits the fan
  • Because of the earlier point, Kimi's relevancy is practically void. Not only Siesta could handle the case on her own, but that also means she can do that for virtually any incident. There wasn't any hint that Siesta got "recent" intel about Bat to high jack stuff, so she basically went ahead with her plan.
  • Following that statement, this means that Siesta doesn't need an incident magnet. She just needs to figure out where and when the next incident will occur.
Siesta "detective omniscience" is the biggest issue when it comes to character relevancy to the plot, because it basically trivialize the context of the narrative, make her sidekick completely unnecessary but also dampen the cases.
For detective stories, there are two approaches:
  • Follow the detective (e.g. Sherlock Holmes). The audience thus has the chance to piece together hints and clues so they can figure out the whodunnit and howdunnit (and in extreme cases, the whydunnit) before the detective makes their declaration
  • Follow the culprit (e.g. Columbo). The audience gets to witness how the culprit is trying to hide their trail and defend themselves against the detective, while the plot is also putting huge emphasis on the detective abilities to piece things together.
The common thing between both approaches is that the audience gets to enjoy how the detective manages to find out about the case. And this is why Tanmoshi didn't really do a proper job because the process was mostly skipped or simplified. Worse, the series outright tells you that Siesta already knew everything all along (at least, in the first case with Bat). Yes, we are early in the series and we have way more episodes to come. But that's already 2 cases solved right from the get go without any implication it could get more complicated. If the intent was to simply introduce the audience to Tanmoshi lore, then why not exploring an actual case that require investigation and deduction as the second case? Regardless of the author intent, they really didn't balance the plot progression by introducing 2 cases that just put emphasis on Siesta's abilities and nothing else.
This is where the series didn't really do a good job with its cases: In other detective series such as Hyouka and Kyokou Suiri, even if their respective detective were on the broken side, the investigation and deduction process was clearly present and things weren't blatantly a scenario where they already knew even before it started.
I'm not saying those series did a perfect job when it comes to adapting detective narrative into an anime format, and I'm not expert when it comes to detective literature. But those serve as evidence that Tanmoshi could have done better in that department, but just went with Siesta being more than a great detective.
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
There is such intense hatred for Siesta floating around that I had to double check that I had watched the right show . Nothing can prove how subjective loving or hating a character can be than this topic. Though I wouldn’t say many like her purely because of hair colour .
I won't speak on behalf of other members, but in my case, it isn't even hatred, it is worse: indifference.
Yes, Siesta has a rather cute character design and she isn't really obnoxious. But her personality isn't exactly interesting either because she didn't show any sort of nuance with her interactions with Kimi, nor demonstrated "why"' she is such a good detective outside of being overkill in term of specs instead of actual processing cases with her skills. And unfortunately, Kimi is not really the best foil for her. To the contrary, he could be written off completely with barely any consequence, which speaks volume about his lack of presence and relevancy in Tanmoshi.
Also, no offense to anyone who truly enjoy Siesta's personality, but I honestly think that if Siesta and Kimi's gender were reversed, Siesta's popularity wouldn't be that great. I'm not saying noe one can possibly think Siesta is interesting, but the fact she is a cute detective girl definitely help when it comes to her appreciation. This also doesn't mean she cannot be a better character, but from my perspective, her initial presentation was all about eye candy, and very little about being an actual detective.

Finally, even if a series looks boring at the first glance, it doesn't mean it is trash or can't be any better. But I believe it is disingenuous to immediately talk about positivity and negativity, when it comes to discussing first impressions.
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Old 2021-07-06, 11:38   Link #83
Frontier
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is that the author thought it was a good idea to make Siesta so OP she even knew about the cases before they even occured. This fact confirmed by the plot has much more issues that you might imagine:
  • As I explained before, Siesta could easily deal with Bat without Kimi whatsoever. If she knew what was going to happen (which she did because she prepared a weapon specifically to counter Bat's abilities), then she could simply arrange everything so she doesn't have to rely on Kimi, who didn't even know the attaché case was necessary for that incident until shit hits the fan
  • Because of the earlier point, Kimi's relevancy is practically void. Not only Siesta could handle the case on her own, but that also means she can do that for virtually any incident. There wasn't any hint that Siesta got "recent" intel about Bat to high jack stuff, so she basically went ahead with her plan.
  • Following that statement, this means that Siesta doesn't need an incident magnet. She just needs to figure out where and when the next incident will occur.
Siesta "detective omniscience" is the biggest issue when it comes to character relevancy to the plot, because it basically trivialize the context of the narrative, make her sidekick completely unnecessary but also dampen the cases.
For detective stories, there are two approaches:
  • Follow the detective (e.g. Sherlock Holmes). The audience thus has the chance to piece together hints and clues so they can figure out the whodunnit and howdunnit (and in extreme cases, the whydunnit) before the detective makes their declaration
  • Follow the culprit (e.g. Columbo). The audience gets to witness how the culprit is trying to hide their trail and defend themselves against the detective, while the plot is also putting huge emphasis on the detective abilities to piece things together.
The common thing between both approaches is that the audience gets to enjoy how the detective manages to find out about the case. And this is why Tanmoshi didn't really do a proper job because the process was mostly skipped or simplified. Worse, the series outright tells you that Siesta already knew everything all along (at least, in the first case with Bat). Yes, we are early in the series and we have way more episodes to come. But that's already 2 cases solved right from the get go without any implication it could get more complicated. If the intent was to simply introduce the audience to Tanmoshi lore, then why not exploring an actual case that require investigation and deduction as the second case? Regardless of the author intent, they really didn't balance the plot progression by introducing 2 cases that just put emphasis on Siesta's abilities and nothing else.
This is where the series didn't really do a good job with its cases: In other detective series such as Hyouka and Kyokou Suiri, even if their respective detective were on the broken side, the investigation and deduction process was clearly present and things weren't blatantly a scenario where they already knew even before it started.
I'm not saying those series did a perfect job when it comes to adapting detective narrative into an anime format, and I'm not expert when it comes to detective literature. But those serve as evidence that Tanmoshi could have done better in that department, but just went with Siesta being more than a great detective.
My impression was that, again, Kimi's involvement drew all the elements together that Siesta needed to resolve the case because he is that much of a trouble magnet, which is why the situation of both cases ended up involving him or stuff that surrounds him that pertained to her struggle against SPES.

I feel like the central crux of the show was in Siesta and Kimi's relationship and dynamic and how the mystery services that developing rather than being a hardcore mystery show which is why her deductions were more supplementary compared to the action in the first half or the romcom in the second half.
Quote:
I won't speak on behalf of other members, but in my case, it isn't even hatred, it is worse: indifference.
Yes, Siesta has a rather cute character design and she isn't really obnoxious. But her personality isn't exactly interesting either because she didn't show any sort of nuance with her interactions with Kimi, nor demonstrated "why"' she is such a good detective outside of being overkill in term of specs instead of actual processing cases with her skills. And unfortunately, Kimi is not really the best foil for her. To the contrary, he could be written off completely with barely any consequence, which speaks volume about his lack of presence and relevancy in Tanmoshi.
Also, no offense to anyone who truly enjoy Siesta's personality, but I honestly think that if Siesta and Kimi's gender were reversed, Siesta's popularity wouldn't be that great. I'm not saying noe one can possibly think Siesta is interesting, but the fact she is a cute detective girl definitely help when it comes to her appreciation. This also doesn't mean she cannot be a better character, but from my perspective, her initial presentation was all about eye candy, and very little about being an actual detective.

Finally, even if a series looks boring at the first glance, it doesn't mean it is trash or can't be any better. But I believe it is disingenuous to immediately talk about positivity and negativity, when it comes to discussing first impressions.
I don't think being a detective honestly has anything to do with why people like her because I think that more comes down to characterization. Just from this initial episode I feel like there was a lot of subtlety and mystery towards Siesta, and her feelings for Kimi, that helped carry the episode and interest in her character, as well as her casual flirting and confidence.

I don't think you could write off Kimi because the show is about his relationship with Siesta and, now, he's seemingly going to carry forward the mystery solving narrative with her gone as he interacts with the rest of the female cast. Presumably he'll have probably grown more proficient on his own from his experience adventuring with Siesta, at least I would assume.

If the genders were reversed...honestly, I'm thinking of the Holmes of Kyoto now .
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Old 2021-07-06, 13:10   Link #84
Klashikari
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And that's exactly why I detailed my beef regarding both the narrative and the characters to illustrate why the series doesn't really captivate me on several angles.
The plot itself doesn't really expand much aside of establishing Siesta's abilities as a detective, and the cases are hardly something to write home about, so the main plot will be more about why/how she "died" while potentially more cases will expose the characters traits. That by itself is somewhat weak when the said cases don't really work on the characters favors for reasons I've mentioned before (which is why I said Kimi could have be written off, as a jab at his role in the plot and how he is presented in general).
Meanwhile, characters themselves aren't exactly winning everyone's heart because their interactions are lopsided. That's why I mentioned Kimi not being a good foil for Siesta because 1) Siesta is already established as the super detective (with a lots of bonus) so his role already has little to no potential effect on her 2) Kimi has really no real weight as a character and serve as the really ordinary character dragged there, which is his issue as a character.

Again, that's only the first impressions, and the series may address such issues in due time. But with the way how it was portrayed with a double sized episode, you can't really expect everyone to believe in such prospect because the series certainly didn't have the best setup for that. So yeah, bad start for some of us, might be better assuming things aren't as stale as the first episode.
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Old 2021-07-06, 13:19   Link #85
serenade_beta
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I have no idea what Holmes of Kyoto is, but there is a reason why (to my knowledge) Holmes is considered a legendary detective, and the plot/setting just calling a girl a "detective" would not bring her near his realm. More like, Niece. You know, when your relative's child comes over and wants to play detective with you. (These are made-up family members for the sake of comparison)

And yeah, this.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I won't speak on behalf of other members, but in my case, it isn't even hatred, it is worse: indifference.
Then again, the initial "some people saying she's the best girl this season" is an extremely vague comment in the first place. Some people say on the contrary too.
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Old 2021-07-06, 13:23   Link #86
Frontier
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And that's exactly why I detailed my beef regarding both the narrative and the characters to illustrate why the series doesn't really captivate me on several angles.
The plot itself doesn't really expand much aside of establishing Siesta's abilities as a detective, and the cases are hardly something to write home about, so the main plot will be more about why/how she "died" while potentially more cases will expose the characters traits. That by itself is somewhat weak when the said cases don't really work on the characters favors for reasons I've mentioned before (which is why I said Kimi could have be written off, as a jab at his role in the plot and how he is presented in general).
Meanwhile, characters themselves aren't exactly winning everyone's heart because their interactions are lopsided. That's why I mentioned Kimi not being a good foil for Siesta because 1) Siesta is already established as the super detective (with a lots of bonus) so his role already has little to no potential effect on her 2) Kimi has really no real weight as a character and serve as the really ordinary character dragged there, which is his issue as a character.

Again, that's only the first impressions, and the series may address such issues in due time. But with the way how it was portrayed with a double sized episode, you can't really expect everyone to believe in such prospect because the series certainly didn't have the best setup for that. So yeah, bad start for some of us, might be better assuming things aren't as stale as the first episode.
That's why I feel like it's a series that will benefit from the three-episode rule because I think the setting and narrative arc will become more clear now that Kimi is on his own and they'll have to address the titular detectives death.

And, again, I feel like the importance was more on the interactions and development of Kimi and Siesta's relationship than the actual mystery, which is why I feel like you couldn't write him out. I personally think he's a nice everyman contrast to Siesta, but your mileage may vary.
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Old 2021-07-06, 13:28   Link #87
Klashikari
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I also follow the 3-4 episodes rules to decide if I should continue watching or not, which is exactly the reason why I put emphasis on the length of this episode. What if it was just 20 minutes? Well could be better but we scratched the surface. But as a double episode, it didn't take full advantage of its duration to appeal the audience. Again, "first impressions", not "yeah, going to drop that now".

And I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I mentioned their lopsided interactions and Kimi's presence as my issue I have with their current relationship. Their banter did nothing to me because Kimi just can't stand his ground and loses his assertiveness really quickly. In other words, they were just boring to me because Kimi cannot follow Siesta's pace at all.
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Old 2021-07-06, 15:24   Link #88
Anh_Minh
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If the genders were reversed...honestly, I'm thinking of the Holmes of Kyoto now .
Not even close. The MC of Holmes of Kyoto is unfailingly polite to his watson, and careful to respect her boundaries.
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Old 2021-07-06, 15:45   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I also follow the 3-4 episodes rules to decide if I should continue watching or not, which is exactly the reason why I put emphasis on the length of this episode. What if it was just 20 minutes? Well could be better but we scratched the surface. But as a double episode, it didn't take full advantage of its duration to appeal the audience. Again, "first impressions", not "yeah, going to drop that now".
I wonder if the next few episodes will better explain why the first episode was the way it was.
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And I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I mentioned their lopsided interactions and Kimi's presence as my issue I have with their current relationship. Their banter did nothing to me because Kimi just can't stand his ground and loses his assertiveness really quickly. In other words, they were just boring to me because Kimi cannot follow Siesta's pace at all.
I thought he was a solid straightman reacting to Siesta's antics and I thought he followed her pretty well, but to each their own. I definitely think Siesta was in the lead but I feel like Kimi followed up with her well enough even if she was partially dragging him some of the way...
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Not even close. The MC of Holmes of Kyoto is unfailingly polite to his watson, and careful to respect her boundaries.
Probably not an exact comparison, just the first thing I thought of .
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Old 2021-07-06, 15:59   Link #90
Anh_Minh
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Probably not an exact comparison, just the first thing I thought of .
Aside from the physical attraction, I just don't see what the two relationships have in common.
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Old 2021-07-06, 17:45   Link #91
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Aside from the physical attraction, I just don't see what the two relationships have in common.
Well, in a sense of a detective and companion, although I don't remember Kiyotaka being as forceful or assertive, even when it came to Aoi getting involved in mysteries...
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Old 2021-07-06, 21:11   Link #92
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It might be part of my no-drop mindset, but for me, picking up a show is already a commitment in itself. It will never leave my anime list unless it's so bad that the only way to deal with it is to remove it from the list entirely. Even outright disappointments like The Holmes of Kyoto Teramachi Sanjou were finished and rated.

Already stated my view on evaluating merits above: it's all gonna boil down to entertainment value. If it's entertaining, regardless of its apparent problems in storytelling, then it will be merited as such. I personally have no time to dwell on negative insights on certain anime like I did when Mahouka was airing.

I will not give any further comments on Siesta's charisma. It's a very subjective topic. We're not gonna end up agreeing anyway.
For you. Many, perhaps even most, have no qualms returning a disappointing product. And even if they don't return it, they have no qualms complaining about it. As this thread proves.

In your own words, your perspective as a viewer does not matter with regards to a story's merits like whether it's entertaining or not.
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Old 2021-07-06, 23:45   Link #93
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In your own words, your perspective as a viewer does not matter with regards to a story's merits like whether it's entertaining or not.
Pretty much that, yes. I mean, what can the viewers do to a so-called "disappointing product", anyway? Everyone (as in everyone who watched the episode, which is basically just 1/12th of the actual product) got pretty much the same product, and the assessment was made after the product was made. Even if there are a huge amount of complaints and an ample amount of "product returns", there are many factors outside of the viewer so there's no guarantee that any amount of said complaints would stop them from making a new project that's better or worse than this show. (In particular, Jun Maeda's awareness of the problems on Angel Beats did not stop him from creating the disasters called Charlotte and The Day I Became God.)

And before we get really deep into this tangent, I'll try to close this with a reminder that we're still one episode into Tantei. WEP turned out to be a disaster more than halfway through its run, and there are so many shows with terrible openers. Anything can happen.
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Old 2021-07-07, 01:36   Link #94
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Plot seemed pretty dry in the 1st episode and the direction was below average. Character interaction makes or breaks the show for me and the chemistry between Kimihiko and Siesta was plain horrid. Only thing that looked promising was the animation during the fight scene. I'm just looking forward to seeing/hearing Matsuri in episode 3.
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Old 2021-07-07, 20:44   Link #95
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Had time to watch the entire now...

Guy stands in the bathroom, nacked, girl comes in... The guy " Please tell me the merits of the job"

The only correct answer here would be: "Well first, we've got HR."
The Pizza thing was a low blow though.

I must also admit, I didn't expect this to turn into a drug story... When I saw the bag I expected something entirely different, especially since she pitied him.
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Old 2021-07-08, 03:41   Link #96
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I must also admit, I didn't expect this to turn into a drug story... When I saw the bag I expected something entirely different, especially since she pitied him.
A (tiny, medicine sized) bag in a detective story is ALWAYS drugs.
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Old 2021-07-08, 03:44   Link #97
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A (tiny, medicine sized) bag in a detective story is ALWAYS drugs.
Just that it looked like a condom bag from afar, which would have fitted to her pitying him.
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Old 2021-07-09, 02:54   Link #98
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Ugh, where to start. Some points have already mentioned in the thread. Kimi being practically useless to the plot of the episode. The author thinking they're writing smart/witty banter, but clearly has no clue what that actually sounds like, so it just comes off as trite, boring, and pretentious. Then the weird story direction, like that cosplay scene. So you mean to tell me that they had time to have a discussion, change clothes, take pictures and run through the halls and the bad guy still couldn't get away?! Also, the author doesn't understand how drug dealing works. You don't have addicts sell your drugs, not if you actually want to make money.
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Old 2021-07-09, 03:06   Link #99
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Ugh, where to start. Some points have already mentioned in the thread. Kimi being practically useless to the plot of the episode. The author thinking they're writing smart/witty banter, but clearly has no clue what that actually sounds like, so it just comes off as trite, boring, and pretentious. Then the weird story direction, like that cosplay scene. So you mean to tell me that they had time to have a discussion, change clothes, take pictures and run through the halls and the bad guy still couldn't get away?! Also, the author doesn't understand how drug dealing works. You don't have addicts sell your drugs, not if you actually want to make money.
It is most likely that the author did not have intention to write the story for anime viewers; the author wrote story for readers. When the guy mentions his bad luck is he always run into crime scenes, readers would get the humor. This guy is a nature born detective, of Japanese detective novels. For example, Detective Conan does not find crimes; crimes seeks the attention of Detective Conan. Some people would say this detective is Death/Ripper himself. Another Death/Ripper is Kindaichi.
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Old 2021-07-09, 03:11   Link #100
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Cloudedmind View Post
Ugh, where to start. Some points have already mentioned in the thread. Kimi being practically useless to the plot of the episode. The author thinking they're writing smart/witty banter, but clearly has no clue what that actually sounds like, so it just comes off as trite, boring, and pretentious. Then the weird story direction, like that cosplay scene. So you mean to tell me that they had time to have a discussion, change clothes, take pictures and run through the halls and the bad guy still couldn't get away?! Also, the author doesn't understand how drug dealing works. You don't have addicts sell your drugs, not if you actually want to make money.
I thought going from customer to dealer was a common occurrence. And it's more of an MLM scheme, so the guy further up the chain makes his money whether the dealer is an addict or not.
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