Equality of Men and Women?

[_Sin_]

What do you think? Do men and women really have equal rights in our - oh so modern - society, or is equality just an illusion?

I for my part think that women *do* have equal rights on the paper, but it is the bad execution of the laws which provide women equal rights that makes it appear as if they don't have such rights. Example: Women earn less money than men for equal work (approximately 20% less).
Who is at fault? Men for oppressing women? Women for not using their opportunities? The evil society?^^

Well, I'm eager to read what you have to say^^

[Lanimoo]

i blame it on the testosterone ^_^ it stinks
but i dont feel like im oppressed... maybe im not at that stage yet.
but i have a feeling that being a female will help me later on in life.
especially if i want to go into IT or just higher paying jobs (microsoft favors women, I would know, I live in seattle and I see women unions there).

[babbito2k]

The fact that there is a poll like this says no to me. Once women don't have to think about it then the answer is yes. I am not going into the reasons and so on.

[Roots]

Originally Posted by _Sin_

I for my part think that women *do* have equal rights on the paper, but it is the bad execution of the laws which provide women equal rights that makes it appear as if they don't have such rights. Example: Women earn less money than men for equal work (approximately 20% less).
Who is at fault? Men for oppressing women? Women for not using their opportunities? The evil society?^^

I agree there is a measurable amount of sexual bias still being taken place. However, it works both ways. For example: a girl I know who's an electrical engineer got an internship as a freshman, and the position was supposed to be only for sophomores and up but the company rep told her "Oh its ok we need more females in our company to meet diversity quotas...etc". To me that's BS. I'm all for equal rights of women, minorities, etc., but that doesn't mean that your "status" should factor into getting a job. The most qualified person should get the job, not the most underrepresented culture! Freaking affirmative action, its like reverse racism...or something


With the salary stastic, I think its because not enough women have made their way through science/engineering cirriculum yet. Most women seem to major in Liberal Arts/Education still, where the salary is much less (or in some cases non-existant ) And what about the number of house-wives? I don't trust that stastic one bit. But I think the bias will go down as long as we get more hot girls like Lanimoo who are interested in science/engr to major in it and get a scientist/engineering position ($BLING BLING$). That's all I have to say for now

<<< EDIT >>>
Lanimoo if you work for M$, I will never forgive you! Don't become a part of the evil empire that steals souls and turns people into mindless zombies!

[Lanimoo]

Originally Posted by Roots

With the salary stastic, I think its because not enough women have made their way through science/engineering cirriculum yet. Most women seem to major in Liberal Arts/Education still, where the salary is much less (or in some cases non-existant ) And what about the number of house-wives? I don't trust that stastic one bit. But I think the bias will go down as long as we get more hot girls like Lanimoo who are interested in science/engr to major in it and get a scientist/engineering position ($BLING BLING$). That's all I have to say for now

<<< EDIT >>>
Lanimoo if you work for M$, I will never forgive you! Don't become a part of the evil empire that steals souls and turns people into mindless zombies!

Ooohhh don't tempt me Roots :P
Actually from my sophomore to junior year, I was planning on going into computer science, then getting a job at Microsoft, work for 5-10 years, then buy as many stock shares as I can with work benefits, and then retire before I'm 35 ^_^ $BLING BLING$ but after taking one semester of AP calculus.... i don't think I could go any further with math, unless you go to University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and tutor me, I might reconsider

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by _Sin_

What do you think? Do men and women really have equal rights in our - oh so modern - society, or is equality just an illusion?

I for my part think that women *do* have equal rights on the paper, but it is the bad execution of the laws which provide women equal rights that makes it appear as if they don't have such rights. Example: Women earn less money than men for equal work (approximately 20% less).
Who is at fault? Men for oppressing women? Women for not using their opportunities? The evil society?^^

Well, I'm eager to read what you have to say^^

Actually that's not true. Recent studies show that women earn about the same or even more as men for doing the same job. Read it somewhere... like a month ago...

If you really have to blame non equal rights to sex. blame it on tradition.

After 6000+ years, men have usually been the caretaker, the hunters, the warriors, the soldiers, the merchants. Women were usually housewives. Name one civilization where that hasn't happened. Except for amazons...but they're a special case.

So after 6000 years along with basic animal instincts (look at wolves and elephants, men as leaders), well face it, it's been encoded in our DNA to make it seem like men are dominant and active. Women are support.

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

The fact that there is a poll like this says no to me. Once women don't have to think about it then the answer is yes. I am not going into the reasons and so on.

Emm, are you implying that I'm female then?

Originally Posted by Roots

I agree there is a measurable amount of sexual bias still being taken place. However, it works both ways. For example: a girl I know who's an electrical engineer got an internship as a freshman, and the position was supposed to be only for sophomores and up but the company rep told her "Oh its ok we need more females in our company to meet diversity quotas...etc". To me that's BS. I'm all for equal rights of women, minorities, etc., but that doesn't mean that your "status" should factor into getting a job. The most qualified person should get the job, not the most underrepresented culture! Freaking affirmative action, its like reverse racism...or something

Absolutely true. The sex should not determining factor to chose whom to employ, the level of skill should be. But then again it's the other way around; so does two wrongs make one right? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Roots

With the salary stastic, I think its because not enough women have made their way through science/engineering cirriculum yet. Most women seem to major in Liberal Arts/Education still, where the salary is much less (or in some cases non-existant )

I meant they get a different salary for equal work.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Lanimoo

Ooohhh don't tempt me Roots :P
Actually from my sophomore to junior year, I was planning on going into computer science, then getting a job at Microsoft, work for 5-10 years, then buy as many stock shares as I can with work benefits, and then retire before I'm 35 ^_^ $BLING BLING$ but after taking one semester of AP calculus.... i don't think I could go any further with math, unless you go to University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and tutor me, I might reconsider

And I always thought that MS takes anyone - Just look at Windows. Something would be wrong if these guys at MS took any semesters of anything only closely related to programming^^

Originally Posted by ahhsin

After 6000+ years, men have usually better characters, the hunters, the warriors, the soldiers, the merchants. Women were usually housewives. Name one civilization where that hasn't happened. Except for amazons...but they're a special case.

You made a typo, but I was glad to fix it for you

No, seriously: I doubt that women are earning as much as money as men. Maybe the study was only about specific jobs and not about all?

And we had had a different society system before (matriarchy), if I'm not completely off.

[Roots]

Originally Posted by Lanimoo

Actually from my sophomore to junior year, I was planning on going into computer science, then getting a job at Microsoft, work for 5-10 years, (etc)

Oh really? I remember you saying from this thread:

Originally Posted by Lanimoo

another reason why I don't want to major in a computer related field. ^_^

Hypocrit!!! Math (after Calc I) is fun though! I kinda miss it...

That's cool you are going to UMAA though. I applied there as an undergraduate too...but I put off my application until it was too late and they sent me back a notice saying they could put me on a waiting list. I basically took that to mean "You got in, but you didn't apply early enough" My friend from Michigan tells me they get so much snow up there its crazy. They have doors on the second story of campus buildings hehe, have fun!!!

....(this would probably have been more suited for a PM)


Anyway, yes if its equal work then they should be paid the same, but maybe the men are more qualified? Perhaps being able to travel more or speaking different languages? You have to keep that in mind.

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by _Sin_

You made a typo, but I was glad to fix it for you

No, seriously: I doubt that women are earning as much as money as men. Maybe the study was only about specific jobs and not about all?

And we had had a different society system before (matriarchy), if I'm not completely off.

ERMMM... Thanks?

Seriously women are earning the same as men.

Well if you want to consider every job... lets take a look at the oldest job in world.

Prostitution.

Women earn more then men, from what I heard... then again the Johns earn more then the whores... but lets specify exactly on the prostitutes and hookers themselves... yea...

Specific jobs, all jobs, it's more or less the same.

[Access]

Originally Posted by _Sin_

What do you think? Do men and women really have equal rights in our - oh so modern - society, or is equality just an illusion?

I for my part think that women *do* have equal rights on the paper, but it is the bad execution of the laws which provide women equal rights that makes it appear as if they don't have such rights. Example: Women earn less money than men for equal work (approximately 20% less).
Who is at fault? Men for oppressing women? Women for not using their opportunities? The evil society?^^

Well, I'm eager to read what you have to say^^

Society is in transtion, but overall it's come a long way. American, European, even Japanese and to some extend other Asia cultures women are much better off even in the last 50 years. But other cultures like 90% of the arab world and a lot of african nations is abhorent in how they treat women or just people in general. Nowadays women in US can find a job in just about any profession she chooses, except at the top corporate levels. It greatly depends on the individual corporation, every corporation is different. 3/4ths of getting a job you want is just 'knowing the right people'. I don't blame anything in the enlightened cultures since they are changing, and change takes generations. Nor do I ever expect women or men to be equal, since the differences will always exist and are nothing to be feared or denied. I honestly don't worry about it too much anymore, just be who you are and enjoy life.

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

Actually that's not true. Recent studies show that women earn about the same or even more as men for doing the same job. Read it somewhere... like a month ago...

If you really have to blame non equal rights to sex. blame it on tradition.

After 6000+ years, men have usually been the caretaker, the hunters, the warriors, the soldiers, the merchants. Women were usually housewives. Name one civilization where that hasn't happened. Except for amazons...but they're a special case.

So after 6000 years along with basic animal instincts (look at wolves and elephants, men as leaders), well face it, it's been encoded in our DNA to make it seem like men are dominant and active. Women are support.

is not that general, hyenas for example are a matriarchy, and among insects the female is usually the dominant. And you are WRONG, in elephants the female also rule.

anyway among humans is the men who is dominant. (Im refering strictly to the animal part of us, not saying that men are better than women like my dad says )

[Imazul]

Seriously where do you live guys...... in Quebec, womens have the top position( or will really really really soon) and the ratio women/men in university is 80/20.

You seem like eastern europe for me (no harm intended to people living in eastern europe).

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by Imazul

Seriously where do you live guys...... in Quebec, womens have the top poisition and the ration to women/men in university is 80/20.

You seem like eastern europe for me (no harm intended to people living in eastern europe).

Can you back up that claim?

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by _Sin_

...

No, seriously: I doubt that women are earning as much as money as men. Maybe the study was only about specific jobs and not about all?

And we had had a different society system before (matriarchy), if I'm not completely off.

Well you are right, you should never believe in a study/survey, that you did not manipulate yourself. I suppose for real equality people need the will for equality. But when the genders decide to not change all things/status, out of their own will, the two sides (female and male), why should someone force it on them or argue about it?

[Imazul]

I can't show you a study right now ( I could of cosurse dig one) but I learned it this year in the world history class.... (my teacher is a man)

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

Well you are right, you should never believe in a study/survey, that you did not manipulate yourself. I suppose for real equality people need the will for equality. But when the genders decide to not change all things/status, out of their own will, the two sides (female and male), why should someone force it on them or argue about it?

I wonder why feminists exist then, if noone wants to change the status.

Though, it is true that there was no big movement since the 60s...


Edit:

Originally Posted by Imazul

I can't show you a study right now ( I could of cosurse dig one) but I learned it this year in the world history class.... (my teacher is a man)

After 13 years of school (go figure where I'm from^^) I learned that you should not trust everything the teachers try to teach you...

[Dopeskills]

I just took a Women's Studies Course, so my answer is gonna be 'no'

Women do not get equal pay. I know several people who have snuck in and found the pay records from their companies and observed this. I think a lot of women either don't realize that they are getting payed less or are willing to accept the pay.

Also, there are a lot of employers who discriminate against women because of the possiblilty of maternity leave.

(On the other hand, women don't have to worry about being drafted)

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by mantidor

is not that general, hyenas for example are a matriarchy, and among insects the female is usually the dominant. And you are WRONG, in elephants the female also rule.

anyway among humans is the men who is dominant. (Im refering strictly to the animal part of us, not saying that men are better than women like my dad says )

guess u learn something new everyday...

well the point is, the animal instinct in us sorta predetermines whose dominant

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

guess u learn something new everyday...

well the point is, the animal instinct in us sorta predetermines whose dominant

Maybe you are overevaluating the role of our genes, because - if it is true what you said - then there would have been only patriarchy and no matriarchy. But if I remember correctly, patriarchy is actually a younger phenomenom than most would have guessed (about 3000 years?)

[Access]

Originally Posted by Dopeskills

Women do not get equal pay. I know several people who have snuck in and found the pay records from their companies and observed this. I think a lot of women either don't realize that they are getting payed less or are willing to accept the pay.

Also, there are a lot of employers who discriminate against women because of the possiblilty of maternity leave.

(On the other hand, women don't have to worry about being drafted)

Depends on where you live. In Israel women have to do 2 years service (mandatory) as well as men. Israel needs all the feet on the ground they can muster in order to not get invaded though. Some European nations are also at least 'exploring' the idea.

I assume you are refering to the US, if you take all corporations combined of course you will find some that are prejudice toward women and some that are closer to or virtually equal. Again it is largely dependent on the individual corporation.

As for partriarchy, that is largely an artifact of war/wars I think. For most of recorded history, whether your culture survived the ages and was able to dominate / consume others was largely based on sucess in war. The original societies before the written word could have just as well been matriarchal, with all the talk that predominates the 'early' religions such as (believed) worship of the "earth mother". It's hard to do anything other than speculate when it comes to pre-recorded history.