AnimeSuki Forums

hyl · 2012-09-29, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Such as?

Your statement (that I bolded) carries no weight at all if you're not able to back it up with at least a concrete example or two.

what, you mean nukiges in some kind of school settings with bad ends? Some Bible black games did it earlier. Although School days might have brought more eroge with yanderes and yangires.
Plus tons of random hentai games (Which i hardly play, because those are not VN's and lack any actual story) has themes like sex (more often rape)and revenge in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And who says a nukige in a high school setting with some guro content can't also have smart themes?

Don't try to reverse what i posted. I never said nukiges with high school settings and guro can't have smart themes, but to me school days doesn't have them.
Besides i have read "smart" Nukige (despite not liking nukiges that much) such as Harumade Kururu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think that Ninja Realist is overthinking School Days. I think that you're allowing a personal distaste of it to cause you to dismiss School Days a bit too easily.

I have read and seen way and way more extreme eroges (like euphoria and Joker) than school days. My personal distaste for school days is not just because it's a nukige with some guro in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, how is saying that something is a deconstruction the same as overrating it? A deconstruction is neither inherently good or inherently bad - It simply is. Being a deconstruction is no guarantee of greatness in a general sense.

His level of deconstuction is hardly what i can call an actual deconstruction, it looks closer to overthinking/overanalyzing things that might or might not be originally intended by the writer. Eventhough i have to agree on some (not all) deconstructions posted on tv tropes.

ujiuji · 2012-09-29, 18:12

Looks like I've taken so long to write a reply the discussion has gone in a different direction, well seeing it I put some time into my rambling message here it is anyway, ignore if you like.

I keep abreast of world news. I know history. I've seen and experienced some of the "darker" sides of life; (I originally put a list here but it felt uncomfortably like I was boasting about it); it's not something I'm looking for in entertainment. There's nothing wrong with escapism unless you try to use it to blot out the real world completely and permanently. Having said which I'm not opposed to fiction, including anime & manga, including painful elements it's just that they have to be well executed. Narutaru, the manga, haven't seen the anime, is not something I'd have picked up if I'd known how it was going to turn out but found it was too good to drop. From the simple-looking but subtly expressive art to the well-rounded, if disturbed characters Kitoh shows mastery. When the violence occurs it feels equivalent to the violence committed every day by people who aren't archetypes of metaphysical evil, just tragically fucked up. On the other hand in say, Blassreiter, the persecution of the outsiders is depicted in such a naive, simplistic way that it feels insulting. The persecuters are just evil gits, the victims, unless they happen to be major characters, have no other personality attributes but their victimhood. If it was a leave-your-brain-at-the-kiosk action flick this lack of subtlety wouldn't bother me, but in Blassreiter I get the feeling we're supposed to take it as serious drama. I've read that Urobuchi may not be totally responsible for the way Blassreiter turned out but it has turned me off trying his other works like Madoka Majica. If you need a more "realistic" magical girl show there's always Ojamajo Doremi, a show that acknowledges that magic can't solve problems, that some problems just cannot be resolved, but that kindness and making an effort to understand others can go a long way. Now that's the kind of realism I can get behind.

kenjiharima · 2012-09-29, 20:13

always ends in tragedy many people do not like that.

DonQuigleone · 2012-09-30, 21:16

I think the issue is when something lacks any kind of "service" element. Drama on it's own is far too tiring, you need service of some kind to keep you going. Things like:
* Battle Sequences
* Weird Psychedelic animation sequences
* Fanservice (of the NSFW kind)
* Musical sequences (in anime most commonly is varied OPs and EDs)
* Melodrama (absurdly heightened Drama)
* Comedy
* Nice imagery/backgrounds (Scenery Porn/Costume Porn)

If you lack the more shallow stuff, you just get dragged down by the heavy drama, and get bored.

The key is striking the right balance. FMA: Brotherhood struck this balance, in my opinion. It's not really a deconstruction though, it was just written better then most other Shonen (IE the mangaka didn't make it up as she went along

!)

Kaioshin Sama · 2012-10-01, 13:41

I'm not sure it's the "realism" in some anime that sparks the hatred, but rather the more complex a situation is presented to be and the more divided a character becomes in his convictions as a result of it, the more commentary seems to shift towards the irrationally angry and where you get the accusations of "plotholes", "bad writing" and "bad pacing" and just the general impatience to wait out the proper resolution of a narrative when more often than not there is no actual "plot hole" present, it's just a show not being willing to commit absolutely to one particular view of events the second said events occur, which I'd swear despite peoples insistence otherwise is what most would seem to prefer. That shows be less complex, less challenging, less nuanced, more safe, more beat you over the head obvious, and more generally pleasant and direct overall. People appear to prefer not shows that challenge their perceptions (anime fans in particular really seem to loathe having their perceptions challenged and seem to believe it's some form of "trolling" or "plot hole" when a show does this) but ones that make them feel comfortable and able to easily analyze what is going on. I don't get the sense that people really appreciate those types of show that require them to look at events from multiple angles and approaches that might not align directly with their own views. To me it looks like more often than not people would rather just see a character do things the way that they themselves would rather than behave within the framework that has been established through those characters experiences for those particular situations so as to stay in character, likable or not. Call it a lack of empathy or genuine involvement in the narrative and nuances of the characters in these sorts of shows if you will, but it's definitely something I can't help but notice.

Maybe it's also that greater complexity gives people more things to nitpick at going along since it's kind of hard to nitpick say your average "slice of life" shows because they are generally just so laid back and non-threatening in their portrayal more often than not that they tend not to have much in the way of plot driven content to criticize to begin with and this tends to be seen as a strength rather than a tradeoff nowadays. In general I continue to get the impression that despite what many anime fans say they don't really like characters and situations that are complex, conflicted or showcase hesitancy and that those types of characters and plot points tend to illicit a great deal of hatred whenever they pop up. It's sort of ironic in a way that people appear conflicted in approach about how they feel about anime that are conflicted in approach.

ujiuji · 2012-10-01, 14:42

Have to agree with much of what you say there, Kaioshin, I often look at discussion threads and hope the participants don't judge people in real life with the same lack of, as you say, empathy that they display in their posts. Amusingly, I have seen a character that I identified with quite strongly, vilified as a "horrible person". That in a slice-of-life story too.

NinjaRealist · 2012-10-01, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Maybe it's also that greater complexity gives people more things to nitpick at going along since it's kind of hard to nitpick say your average "slice of life" shows because they are generally just so laid back and non-threatening in their portrayal more often than not that they tend not to have much in the way of plot driven content to criticize to begin with and this tends to be seen as a strength rather than a tradeoff nowadays. In general I continue to get the impression that despite what many anime fans say they don't really like characters and situations that are complex, conflicted or showcase hesitancy and that those types of characters and plot points tend to illicit a great deal of hatred whenever they pop up. It's sort of ironic in a way that people appear conflicted in approach about how they feel about anime that are conflicted in approach.

I agree with 99% of what you said. I feel that anime fans in particular tend to have a problem with all of the types of things you've mentioned.

And yet when I talk to people about American Live Action TV, it is exactly these traits which define some of the most popular well respected TV Shows ever. I'm thinking about shows like The Wire and Twin Peaks. The Wire in particular is probably one of the most depressing, tragic (some might call it a deconstruction of cop shows) pieces of fiction on American TV. It doesn't give you a moral, it doesn't tell you who the good guys and the bad guys are, and nobody makes it through the experiences of the show physically or emotionally unscathed.

But I never hear American TV fans criticizing The Wire because the plot is too ambiguous or because they think that the creators are trolling us by killing off X character in such a sudden and brutal way.

These are the types of criticisms I often see levied at morally ambiguous/depressing anime and manga.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ujiuji

Narutaru, the manga, haven't seen the anime, is not something I'd have picked up if I'd known how it was going to turn out but found it was too good to drop. From the simple-looking but subtly expressive art to the well-rounded, if disturbed characters Kitoh shows mastery. When the violence occurs it feels equivalent to the violence committed every day by people who aren't archetypes of metaphysical evil, just tragically fucked up.

Kitoh is such a great writer. Narutaru and Bokurano are both masterpieces of tragedy. Few anime or manga have made me cry so much.

2012-09-29, 20:13	Link #63
kenjiharima Mizore-chan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Moe Land Age: 43	always ends in tragedy many people do not like that. __________________ Vampire+Sisters

2012-09-29, 18:12	Link #62
ujiuji Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Brighton, UK. Age: 61	Looks like I've taken so long to write a reply the discussion has gone in a different direction, well seeing it I put some time into my rambling message here it is anyway, ignore if you like. I keep abreast of world news. I know history. I've seen and experienced some of the "darker" sides of life; (I originally put a list here but it felt uncomfortably like I was boasting about it); it's not something I'm looking for in entertainment. There's nothing wrong with escapism unless you try to use it to blot out the real world completely and permanently. Having said which I'm not opposed to fiction, including anime & manga, including painful elements it's just that they have to be well executed. Narutaru, the manga, haven't seen the anime, is not something I'd have picked up if I'd known how it was going to turn out but found it was too good to drop. From the simple-looking but subtly expressive art to the well-rounded, if disturbed characters Kitoh shows mastery. When the violence occurs it feels equivalent to the violence committed every day by people who aren't archetypes of metaphysical evil, just tragically fucked up. On the other hand in say, Blassreiter, the persecution of the outsiders is depicted in such a naive, simplistic way that it feels insulting. The persecuters are just evil gits, the victims, unless they happen to be major characters, have no other personality attributes but their victimhood. If it was a leave-your-brain-at-the-kiosk action flick this lack of subtlety wouldn't bother me, but in Blassreiter I get the feeling we're supposed to take it as serious drama. I've read that Urobuchi may not be totally responsible for the way Blassreiter turned out but it has turned me off trying his other works like Madoka Majica. If you need a more "realistic" magical girl show there's always Ojamajo Doremi, a show that acknowledges that magic can't solve problems, that some problems just cannot be resolved, but that kindness and making an effort to understand others can go a long way. Now that's the kind of realism I can get behind.

2012-09-30, 21:16	Link #64
DonQuigleone Knight Errant Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dublin, Ireland Age: 35	I think the issue is when something lacks any kind of "service" element. Drama on it's own is far too tiring, you need service of some kind to keep you going. Things like: * Battle Sequences * Weird Psychedelic animation sequences * Fanservice (of the NSFW kind) * Musical sequences (in anime most commonly is varied OPs and EDs) * Melodrama (absurdly heightened Drama) * Comedy * Nice imagery/backgrounds (Scenery Porn/Costume Porn) If you lack the more shallow stuff, you just get dragged down by the heavy drama, and get bored. The key is striking the right balance. FMA: Brotherhood struck this balance, in my opinion. It's not really a deconstruction though, it was just written better then most other Shonen (IE the mangaka didn't make it up as she went along !)

2012-10-01, 13:41	Link #65
Kaioshin Sama Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Neither Here nor There Age: 39	I'm not sure it's the "realism" in some anime that sparks the hatred, but rather the more complex a situation is presented to be and the more divided a character becomes in his convictions as a result of it, the more commentary seems to shift towards the irrationally angry and where you get the accusations of "plotholes", "bad writing" and "bad pacing" and just the general impatience to wait out the proper resolution of a narrative when more often than not there is no actual "plot hole" present, it's just a show not being willing to commit absolutely to one particular view of events the second said events occur, which I'd swear despite peoples insistence otherwise is what most would seem to prefer. That shows be less complex, less challenging, less nuanced, more safe, more beat you over the head obvious, and more generally pleasant and direct overall. People appear to prefer not shows that challenge their perceptions (anime fans in particular really seem to loathe having their perceptions challenged and seem to believe it's some form of "trolling" or "plot hole" when a show does this) but ones that make them feel comfortable and able to easily analyze what is going on. I don't get the sense that people really appreciate those types of show that require them to look at events from multiple angles and approaches that might not align directly with their own views. To me it looks like more often than not people would rather just see a character do things the way that they themselves would rather than behave within the framework that has been established through those characters experiences for those particular situations so as to stay in character, likable or not. Call it a lack of empathy or genuine involvement in the narrative and nuances of the characters in these sorts of shows if you will, but it's definitely something I can't help but notice. Maybe it's also that greater complexity gives people more things to nitpick at going along since it's kind of hard to nitpick say your average "slice of life" shows because they are generally just so laid back and non-threatening in their portrayal more often than not that they tend not to have much in the way of plot driven content to criticize to begin with and this tends to be seen as a strength rather than a tradeoff nowadays. In general I continue to get the impression that despite what many anime fans say they don't really like characters and situations that are complex, conflicted or showcase hesitancy and that those types of characters and plot points tend to illicit a great deal of hatred whenever they pop up. It's sort of ironic in a way that people appear conflicted in approach about how they feel about anime that are conflicted in approach.

2012-10-01, 14:42	Link #66
ujiuji Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Brighton, UK. Age: 61	Have to agree with much of what you say there, Kaioshin, I often look at discussion threads and hope the participants don't judge people in real life with the same lack of, as you say, empathy that they display in their posts. Amusingly, I have seen a character that I identified with quite strongly, vilified as a "horrible person". That in a slice-of-life story too.