(L+CR) It's Not My Fault I'm Not Popular (WATAMOTE)

[Reality_Breaker]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

She is the creepiest female character I have ever seen in an anime or manga.

What are you talking (writing?) about? She's cute and relatable, it's just that she's kind of an asshole to people who have a better life than her (I kind of understand this side of her) since some people just seem to get everything without trying, so screw them

Also to those who feel depressed when it's only on the second episode then I recommend you stop right now and watch something else, since this will make you remember every embarrassing thing you've done just so you can relate to her.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I kind of get that but is she really a horrible person or is she a horrible person because of her situation?

It's a chicken & egg sort of situation.

My impression is that it's the latter, that years of loneliness have worn Tomoko down and started making her unstable. I think that her natural personality is a sweet and friendly one, and that with friends to alleviate her loneliness she'd turn into an angel of moe. I think that her thoughts towards the fat guy were pretty ugly (especially since he's a perfectly decent guy), but otherwise her more bitter thoughts aren't biting enough or cruel enough for me to hold them against her. Just the helpless bitterness of someone that feels completely isolated and alone.

[Trogdor Jube]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

She's not a hikikomori. She's an uncomfortably realistic portrayal of a person with a serious social anxiety disorder, and because the author clearly knows the subject she hits uncomfortably close to the mark for those who recognize the signs.

Are you implying that social anxiety isn't silly?
It's normal
It's common
But that doesn't make it any less silly, if it wasn't silly people wouldn't be trying to AVOID it.

Tomoko's problems are silly in that they are irrational and based on exaggerated perceptions on life.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Trogdor Jube

Are you implying that social anxiety isn't silly?
It's normal
It's common
But that doesn't make it any less silly, if it wasn't silly people wouldn't be trying to AVOID it.

Tomoko's problems are silly in that they are irrational and based on exaggerated perceptions on life.

Irrationality becomes rational in the minds of people who are stuck in the said rut. It's a very real problem for a lot of people because they can't get out of it. Some people can, others can't. Tomoko rationalizing and defense mechanisms puts her in a vicious cycle that only reinforces her situation.

She's almost to the point where she mixes it with false perceptions and paranoia, and once she's there, it's no longer silly. It becomes a very real problem.

[Trogdor Jube]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Irrationality becomes rational in the minds of people who are stuck in the said rut. It's a very real problem for a lot of people because they can't get out of it. Some people can, others can't. Tomoko rationalizing and defense mechanisms puts her in a vicious cycle that only reinforces her situation.

She's almost to the point where she mixes it with false perceptions and paranoia, and once she's there, it's no longer silly. It becomes a very real problem.

Silly and real problems aren't antonyms.
Many real world problems are based around foolish actions either by people or the people around them.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's not a question of being stuck in a rut. Tomoko isn't in a bad mood - she has a medical condition. It's obviously not something the mangaka is going to address openly in a series that functions mainly as a comedy, but he clearly knows his stuff - he's dealt with clinical depression and/or severy anxiety disorders either himself or (more likely) in his close family. He nails the patterns too well not to.

The fact that Tomoko can be dismissed as silly means the show is working on both levels, which is great. But that other level definitely exists.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Trogdor Jube

Silly and real problems aren't antonyms.
Many real world problems are based around foolish actions either by people or the people around them.

That was precisely my point. For the most part, she's doing this to herself. She's disabling herself from getting out of her silly alienated lifestyle by persistent exaggerations inside her mind.

And yet many psychiatric problems start out like this. It becomes a real medical condition when it piles up and extends towards the more bizarre and surreal.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's not a question of being stuck in a rut. Tomoko isn't in a bad mood - she has a medical condition. It's obviously not something the mangaka is going to address openly in a series that functions mainly as a comedy, but he clearly knows his stuff - he's dealt with clinical depression and/or severy anxiety disorders either himself or (more likely) in his close family. He nails the patterns too well not to.

The fact that Tomoko can be dismissed as silly means the show is working on both levels, which is great. But that other level definitely exists.

As in my above quote, psychiatric conditions aren't a BAM here it is plain and simple. In my clinical experience it's a progression, and what she's going through is one of the means of getting worse. You could even call her, to some degree, a poster child of someone who will develop a REAL problem somewhere down the line. It's silly now, true, some of it part or the typical teenager emotional growing pains. Some of it are however going into the territories beyond teen angst.

And I really wouldn't call this part of a depressive disorder based on DSM-IV-TR. At best it's social anxiety, at worst probably avoidant personality disorder. Her beliefs about her peers being... uh... sluts and whatnot might be considered as delusions, but then again teenager, and she definitely doesn't have hallucinations.

[Dr. Casey]

I wouldn't go so far as to call Tomoko's isolation self-imposed. A self-imposed problem I think of as being something that can be solved with a reasonable amount of ease; severe social anxiety is by no means an easy problem to fix or ignore. It's an extremely paralyzing thing, no easier to overcome than it would be for an arachnophobe to ignore their fear of spiders and pick up a tarantula.

As for the severity of Tomoko's problems... I would consider her overall mental health to be fair, but that her level of isolation and anxiety goes far beyond anything normal. I noticed this whenever I went back to school in late 2011, but it's quite rare for students to have absolutely no friends - even those that are withdrawn or seem to have poor self-esteem manage to carve a small niche for themselves and at least form acquaintanceships with other kids. Tomoko probably almost never speaks outside roll call, and that is a special level of isolation. I think hers is a rather quiet and muted pain - she's not on the razor's edge of suicide or anything, she seems to get a shallow degree of enjoyment out of life - but that it's a pain that will eventually catch up to her, and that in real life a person of her mindset and situation would be much, much worse two or three years down the road. (Since this is a comedy series, though, I doubt things will go that route - unless this dark comedy intends to become an even darker one.)

[aohige]

It treads a fine line, as the SOS signals (intentional or otherwise) are clearly there, but being dismissed - which is both the central aspect of the humor, but also an aspect that would be discouraged at all cost in real life.

The poor girl needs help.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

She is the creepiest female character I have ever seen in an anime or manga.

O_____________o whaaaaaaaaaaaat what about all those yandere bitches who go "I'LL KILL YOU AND MYSELF IF YOU DON'T CHOOSE ME!!"

There's nothing creepy about Tomoko. She's just socially awkward and cynical.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by aohige

It treads a fine line, as the SOS signals (intentional or otherwise) are clearly there, but being dismissed - which is both the central aspect of the humor, but also an aspect that would be discouraged at all cost in real life.

The poor girl needs help.

But... and no offense to the Japanese, good luck finding that sort of help in Japan. The taboo against psychological help means that she's literally screwed, unless her parents happen to be more liberal than normal. The alarm bells are shrieking, but it is utterly shameful to answer the bells.

And the worst thing is, Tomoko is intelligent enough to at least dimly grasp where this is all heading too. I don't think she was joking when she made the statement that if Highschool was this hard, the outside world would be even more difficult for her. She knows, at some level she has a problem - it's just that she doesn't fully comprehend what it is. I suspect we'd see more gyrations between self-loathing, and blaming "society" (and for quite the hilariously, but understandably wrong reasons at that).

This has been repeated many times, but you have to pity her brother. She is a social Outside Context Problem for him, and he is in no way capable of actually helping her.

I have a suspicion that Yuu is meant to be a parody of quiet, meek Shojou/ Otomoe game protagonist protagonist who acquires Gary Stu boyfriends, and Slice of Life heroine loners whose lives turn around in high school with a zanny group of friends.

Any Watamoe fix fan-fics (and I can foresee that happening) would probably require Tomoko to acquire some psychological help.

Sadly, I don't think it would come until Tomoko actually snaps further, and carry out her episode 1 threat to commit suicide.

I theorize that some find her is creepy because she offends our expectations, and because she portrays sheer "wrongness". It's a burn it with fire reaction, and IMO reeks of Ableism.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

As for the severity of Tomoko's problems... I would consider her overall mental health to be fair, but that her level of isolation and anxiety goes far beyond anything normal. I noticed this whenever I went back to school in late 2011, but it's quite rare for students to have absolutely no friends - even those that are withdrawn or seem to have poor self-esteem manage to carve a small niche for themselves and at least form acquaintanceships with other kids.

A large part of her problem is she's in a Japanese high school where she's pretty much stuck in a room with the same thirty students all day long. With a social group that small, it's quite possible there's no one around with similar interests. That's what elementary school was like for me -- I didn't like G.I. Joe or football, so I couldn't make friends with any of the boys, and I wasn't into jumping rope and Barbie so the girls were equally distant. Things didn't improve until middle school when we started changing classes and I had more chances to encounter fellow geeks. If I'd been forced to stay in a single class all through high school, I probably would've ended up like Tomoko.

[hamazura]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I kind of get that but is she really a horrible person or is she a horrible person because of her situation?

It's a chicken & egg sort of situation.

because she is already a terrible person from the beginning, always look down on people, etc etc
and because of her condition now she become more and more terrible person.
I dont mind people feel sad for pure innocent loner who happen to be a loner because he/she (usually) different from others or want to befriend but have no social skill.
Kuroki is different, she is a loner who is a pure-evil type

[TaquishaJohnson]

This show is fucking perfect so far. I love it. And as a rhythm game nerd, I lol'd at "Po Po Po'n Music."

[ID555]

I can't watch this. Someone help this poor girl please.... TT___TT

[Dop]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I have a suspicion that Yuu is meant to be a parody of quiet, meek Shojou/ Otomoe game protagonist protagonist who acquires Gary Stu boyfriends, and Slice of Life heroine loners whose lives turn around in high school with a zanny group of friends.

I have to disagree with that, I see Yuu as being basically the Anti-Tomoko.
Yuu and Tomoko started alike but took different paths, Yuu presents an example of what Tomoko COULD be if she wasn't so horribly anti-social and had a more healthy lifestyle.

Tomoko's repulsive opinions of others make her such a horrible character I'm not sure I'm going to follow this show. Maybe one more episode then decide.

[Veviticus]

Is there going to be any character development for Tomoko? I might drop it early if she stays alone throughout the entire series. It's just so depressing for me

[ninryu]

Originally Posted by hamazura

because she is already a terrible person from the beginning, always look down on people, etc etc
and because of her condition now she become more and more terrible person.
I dont mind people feel sad for pure innocent loner who happen to be a loner because he/she (usually) different from others or want to befriend but have no social skill.
Kuroki is different, she is a loner who is a pure-evil type

You are totally exaggerating - Tomoko isn't exactly "Good-Guy Greg", but she's defiantly not a bad person. Selfish? Yeah. Self-centered? Absolutely, but not evil. Her dismissive attitude towards others is just a self-defense mechanism she's putting in order to soften the blow of being completely isolated and unable to achieve the sparkly highschool life she dreams of. She's defiantly not helping herself doing it, and she can be stuck-up sometimes, but I believe she's actually a decent person.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Dop

I have to disagree with that, I see Yuu as being basically the Anti-Tomoko.
Yuu and Tomoko started alike but took different paths, Yuu presents an example of what Tomoko COULD be if she wasn't so horribly anti-social and had a more healthy lifestyle.

Tomoko's repulsive opinions of others make her such a horrible character I'm not sure I'm going to follow this show. Maybe one more episode then decide.

If Tomoko was able to interact with other people without collapsing into a jelly, then yes, I would have agreed that Tomoko is one of the most disagreeable and unlikable slice of life protagonists I've ever seen.

The thing is, you seem to be treating this as if Tomoko's natural tendency is to regard others in such a repulsive manner. On the contrary, I take the position that much of her repulsive outlook of life emerges out of limited socialization, as a result on her complete inability to interact with complete and total strangers. In other words, her "horribleness" is a product, IMO of her social isolation, rather than her social isolation being a product of her "horribleness".

I am sure you don't mean to imply that Tomoko is born evil? To me, your position easily leads down to that road. But if Tomoko isn't horrible by default, then surely the blame lies less on her own hatreds, but more on very real disabilities.

Since we haven't seen Tomoko actually acting like an asshat to others, I am inclined to believe that the root of her isolation largely lies not on her being an ass, but her inability to even express herself, to begin with.

Simply put, Yuu doesn't seem to be a Tomoko with anti-social opinions, but rather, what Tomoko might have been if Tomoko wasn't crippled by her inability to even interact meaningfully with others (whether it be positively or negatively). In other words, a standard "quiet" Otome game /Shojou romance protagonist or Slice of Life protagonist. By this, I mean a quiet loner type protagonist who could be coaxed out from her shell by others.

Tomoko isn't pushing people away because she wants to push people away. She cannot even interact with anyone outside her family in the first place with any semblance of coherence, besides Yuu.

For me, the sterling problem isn't that Tomoko is an ass with a superiority and persecution complex rolled into one. It's her very inability to meaningfully interact with anyone outside her family. That's the major difference between Yuu and Tomoko. So, yes in that sense, she is an anti Tomoko - in so far that she doesn't share Tomoko's most sterling inability, by any indication. Whether or not she is morally speaking also an Anti-Tomoko is something debatable - until we see Yuu's own internal narrative, there's no way to know for sure. If Yuu is the Anti Tomoko, then Tomoko is more properly the Anti Shojou romance loner protagonist.

For me, the main reason why I might end up dropping this show, is that seeing Tomoko basically drowning in her disabilities one time too many might become to painful to watch. That girl needs help, and she's never going to receive it, until she hangs herself or overdose herself on drugs or commits a crime, or any number of bad ends her life is careening right towards. The best case scenario is Hikkimorihood.

If anything, her character faults actually come across as funny, in the sense of it being absolutely ridiculous, delusional, and negative. But every time that negativity turns into sexual innuendo, the more I am convinced that a realistic end for this girl is being lured into a life of prostitution and drug abuse. From my view, Tomoko doesn't need to be shot because of being inherently evil (but I am convinced she's not to begin with), she needs help on the account of having inherent social disabilities.

If we remove her Misanthropy completely , what we get is a girl full of self loathing, and saddled with very real disabilities that require help. For all intents and purpose, no difference would likely be seen externally - Tomoko would still be that utterly shy, totally isolated, completely socially incompetent girl totally unable to even attempt a conversation with someone she does not know, let alone try to hold one.

[Kirarakim]

Yeah I think I am going to have a hard time following the series if the character is not going to get better. But I think that is part of the humor.

I guess I would label this black comedy. I don't think the show is necessarily laughing at Tomoko or real people like her but it does take a comic approach at something I just don't find much to laugh at here.

I do like black comedy in other situations and I can understand why people would enjoy this but I am not sure if this works for me personally. And besides I have too much else to watch this season.

I think whether you can enjoy this is very personal and nothing to do with the quality of the series. In fact I would say despite my misgivings I think the series is well done overall, just not for me.