[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Someone suggested that gold could be a particular author's embellishment of things that can never be confirmed (as the detective did not witness them, I guess?). In that case, both examples would conform:

Battler can guarantee a particular corpse is Kinzo's because Erika never saw one, and in his view of the events (as "Game Master" which is perhaps synonymous with being the author for an episode) Kinzo's corpse does indeed exist somewhere. The gold works because it's necessary to understand the game; you can't have a game where the detective can meet with a living Kinzo, but you can embellish all you want whether the Kinzo nobody's seen is dead or alive. Maybe. Arguably ep5's version of Kinzo is based on the GM (Lambda I guess) deciding to portray Kinzo as definitely dead (as opposed to just ambiguously so like Beatrice does). This doesn't contradict facts (he is dead), but she doesn't have to actually produce his body. By doing this, she leaves a loophole for Erika to exploit (positing the existence of an unknown living Kinzo), but also a loophole for Battler to exploit by pointing out that Kinzo is dead.

For the cup thing between the Beatos, there is no "objective observer," nor are they in a place that necessarily must conform to the laws of the physical world in the first place. The cup trick could be sleight of hand. But it could also be magic. As nothing in the Golden Land can contradict the existence of magic, they declare that it really was an act of magic.

So I guess you could potentially look at it like an author deciding how it all shakes down. Certain aspects of characters' behavior and unobserved events are possible but not provable. The gold could be the author saying "in this case, it happened this way" in a situation where it can never be shown exactly how it happened. Only a GM-level observer can use the gold in such a case because they need to know the pieces and board well enough to create an authorial authority (try saying that three times fast) that gives them the right to make such statements.

In other words, you could argue that if Beatrice is the original writer, and Lambda is a halfway decent fan-fiction writer, Battler has to prove himself slightly better than the author of "Superman and Naruto fight Goku." Having a little piece of gold text doesn't prove it all by itself. Only narrating an entire episode proves his authority.

In summary for this concept:

RED is factual information, whether or not it's relevant.

BLUE is the detective's authority. It challenges the author and must be answered in facts. Contradiction means the detective wins or a logic error occurs.

GOLD is the author's authority. It cannot be challenged unless it contradicts established facts. As long as there is ambiguity as to what could have happened, the author is permitted to give their own opinion of what really did happen.

[trialxerror]

Has anyone explained what's happening in this scene?

Spoiler for Third OP:

It looks like something's on fire, a building?

I'm finding it harder and harder to believe there isn't some kind of fire or bomb at the end. There's also this picture Jan-Poo has posted regarding maps of the island

Spoiler for Map:

By the way, I've been finding the "Nanjo" theory very interesting. It has helped string little things together for me that start to make a lot more sense when you think of it as a real possibility.

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by trialxerror

Has anyone explained what's happening in this scene?

Spoiler for Third OP:

It looks like something's on fire, a building?

I'm finding it harder and harder to believe there isn't some kind of fire or bomb at the end. There's also this picture Jan-Poo has posted regarding maps of the island

Spoiler for Map:

By the way, I've been finding the "Nanjo" theory very interesting. It has helped string little things together for me that start to make a lot more sense when you think of it as a real possibility.

That first picture is regarding the Magical Battle between Virgilia and Beatrice. Virgilia summoned a tower from the sky and stopped the thousands of arrows.

But it could be that it represents fire or bombs o-o

[trialxerror]

Well, I think that scene had way too many metaphors to count. Near the beginning of the battle, Beatrice states: "If you don't want to wreck the whole island, it looks like that'll be impossible, right?" (Beatrice referring to Virgillia keeping her eyes closed at the beginning of the fight). I found that line interesting, considering on how the battle is so "grand-scale" but apparently there's nothing actually there at the location. Of course, you can just ignore most of the magic all together, but I think that would probably be a bad idea. For that matter, what is one to understand from this battle when Kumasawa's body was discovered some place else? Did she and Beatrice get into some kind of real-life confrontation?

[Antera Caramichael]

If I were to give a signification to this scene, it would be like this:
"Beatrice the culprit" was intending since the begining to kill Kumasawa, which was his/her master in some way (There are infinite possibilities, for example, Kumasawa acted as/like Beatrice in the past) and by so know what he/she is planning to do and by so is the most dangerous person for him/her.
If we think there are accomplicies, then the stakes are explaned. The battle could be a metaphor of a logic battle, like in Ep5. For example, Kumasawa is arguing with Beatrice so that she stop his/her project. Beatrice make her believe that she won and is stabbing her in the back.
That's an easy interpretation, if we look more in the details, we could find something more developped I think...

[Renall]

Wasn't Kumasawa discovered in bed? A bed the TIPS suggest she took frequent naps in. It's possible, of course, that she was placed there, but I think it would be equally interesting to consider the possibility of her being killed in her sleep. Of course you'd have to explain the "battle" in another way.

But what if she did confront "Beatrice" and actually did convince her of something? After all, this is the one episode where all the servants - and the prime Beatrice suspect - are killed in the First Twilight. Perhaps something was discussed which led to the opportunity for someone who doesn't normally kill to take out the servants for some twisted reason.

Of course you have the small problem of the magic circles and closed room arrangements. If this person was just an opportunistic killer, it seems a bit odd to use traits we've traditionally ascribed to the "epitaph" side to them. Of course, if they're a defector from that team (such as Nanjo or George, who are both the obvious potential suspects and the only ones without a solid alibi for that time) they might well keep going with the plot for their own reasons. However, that requires us to ask what their reason was.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by trialxerror

Has anyone explained what's happening in this scene?

Spoiler for Third OP:

It looks like something's on fire, a building?

I'm finding it harder and harder to believe there isn't some kind of fire or bomb at the end. There's also this picture Jan-Poo has posted regarding maps of the island

By the way, I've been finding the "Nanjo" theory very interesting. It has helped string little things together for me that start to make a lot more sense when you think of it as a real possibility.

After EP6 I'm back at my very first hypothesis that I elaborated back after EP4. I believe the "unfortunate incident" is a volcanic eruption of some sort.

[TheDarkLatias]

Originally Posted by Nyura Kousen

In my opinion, there's no need to remove another person. Because there are 17 in the island, yes, but I think Battler is a player.

Why Do You Think Battler Is A Player???

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

After EP6 I'm back at my very first hypothesis that I elaborated back after EP4. I believe the "unfortunate incident" is a volcanic eruption of some sort.

Curiously that you don't buy WWII explosive, rather you choose an anticlimatic natural event, which means you don't know why the killing of Battler in EP4 was also the heart of Beatrice.

[Jan-Poo]

There are several reasons.

The first is that I believe the incident was of a vast magnitude, which can't really be explained by a few bombs and I can't really believe there is a small atomic bomb in Rokkenjima or an equivalent in TNT.

Second a natural event is more likely to be considered an "unfortunate incident" while a huge explosion would cause people to believe in a culprit or a plot, and speculations about mass murderer started only two years after the fact.

Third the seagulls can notice a natural event beforehand but they can't know a bomb is going to explode. I don't buy they aren't there just because of the typhoon. The fact that the torii crumbled down can be a further hint that some seismic shakes were happening since a while which is often the case before volcanic eruption.

Fourth I believe that the existence of a volcano was known since the past and that's the true meaning behind the old name "Akujikishima". In EP2 the final disaster has been compared to a demonic banquet after all. That knowledge must have faded through the ages probably thousands of years until everyone only remembered about a "great evil" residing on the island. There must be a reason why it was left uninhabited after all.

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There are several reasons.

The first is that I believe the incident was of a vast magnitude, which can't really be explained by a few bombs and I can't really believe there is a small atomic bomb in Rokkenjima or an equivalent in TNT.

Second a natural event is more likely to be considered an "unfortunate incident" while a huge explosion would cause people to believe in a culprit or a plot, and speculations about mass murderer started only two years after the fact.

Third the seagulls can notice a natural event beforehand but they can't know a bomb is going to explode. I don't buy they aren't there just because of the typhoon. The fact that the torii crumbled down can be a further hint that some seismic shakes were happening since a while which is often the case before volcanic eruption.

Fourth I believe that the existence of a volcano was known since the past and that's the true meaning behind the old name "Akujikishima". In EP2 the final disaster has been compared to a demonic banquet after all. That knowledge must have faded through the ages probably thousands of years until everyone only remembered about a "great evil" residing on the island. There must be a reason why it was left uninhabited after all.

Well, if we're thinking geography, islands ARE made from volcanic eruptions under the lake or ocean. Speaking of which, if there was a volcanic eruption, also triggered by a bomb, it seems almost probable.

However, wouldn't locals know the magnitudes of volcanoes during that time? Or was it even invented yet?

To the point, something killed the family, but if there was really a culprit, shouldn't they be alive? Or does everyone REALLY die?

[Renall]

The Izu islands are volcanic. Everyone in the area is well aware of this and have been for centuries. It wouldn't be unknown to people.

If there were an eruption, however, why was Kuwadorian spared? That's an awfully small eruption.

[rogerpepitone]

If it were caused by a volcano, that would have happened in all episodes. In Episode 1, why would they have made the search that ultimately revealed Maria's jawbone?

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by Renall

If there were an eruption, however, why was Kuwadorian spared? That's an awfully small eruption.

An eruption is not something that destroy an entire island like everyone think. There are two/three types of eruption: The ones with big explosions and the one with lava and mud rivers, and finally the one that implies both^^. If it is the first type then it depend where the explosion occurs and with the other one, it depend where the river is heading to.
But in the other hand, the second one would be more likely to occurs by night when they are sleeping.

The fact that the authorities found Maria jaws, it would be an indication that fragments would maybe have crashed, and the lava/mud recovered all the rest, and I don't talk about the gaps that could follow the earthquake.

I like this theory.

With it, it would explain Beatrice's letter which hurries the family to resolve the epitaph, and by so escape the eruption. But why hiding behind a riddle and not show it directly?

[ijriims]

Who could predict a volcano eruption? or any natural disaster?

[Renall]

Most lava-only eruptions are incredibly slow. There are volcanos in Hawaii that are erupting right now. Lava is flowing. It's no big deal. If Rokkenjima were erupting without an explosive blast, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to not notice it coming or get caught in it. It certainly couldn't sneak up on people in one day.

It'd have to be an explosive eruption to really kill an entire group of people quickly. And if it was an explosive eruption, it seems awfully weird that Ange would believe Eva could have had anything to do with it. Everyone would've known full well what had happened.

[Antera Caramichael]

That's why I added "mud" with it^^
Actually, the eruption with mud flows are the more deadly because the mud is going at more than 80km/h depending of the landscape, and Rokkenjimma is very rocky.
And remember: Ange was a child a the time. When she saw that everyone exept Eva, died, of course she would suspect her to have kill them, she was 6 years old at the time. After there was the suspicion around her at the begining, but again she was finally inocented.

And actually, we can predict today more or less when eruption can occur because of the earthquakes that happens before them.

[rogerpepitone]

Why didn't Okonogi point out the impossibility of Eva triggering a volcanic eruption?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Why didn't Okonogi point out the impossibility of Eva triggering a volcanic eruption?

There is a possibility, however small, that Okonogi just doesn't see why any sensible person would believe that what happened was caused by anyone. The message bottles might say that there was a serial murder, but perhaps it's like people who say the moon landings are fake or that the KGB killed Kennedy. Most people don't believe it, but a subset of conspiracy theorists (the Witch Hunters) do. They just believe Eva got lucky, survived, and escaped to Kuwadorian where she was found.

Okonogi simply didn't believe Ange was the sort of person who would actually believe Witch Hunters' theories. Ange's narration is generally questionable as she has a major axe to grind and her memories are twisted by Maria's diary, which has been proven to be a fairly unreliable source.

It's possible that Ange came to believe in the murders as a way of explaining her own feelings of guilt. She apparently said some hurtful things to Maria and never got to apologize. The murders and the magic might be a way for her to cope.

[chronotrig]

Well, it's impossible to outright disprove the volcano theory, but I guess I'd find it a bit insulting as a reader. It basically leaves you two options: the massive coincidence of a serial murder happening on an small island on the same day as a completely unrelated volcanic eruption, or accepting that the murders themselves are outright lies and could not have happened at all except by the greatest of coincidences.

With the first, you have an almost impossibly unlikely setup, especially with the volcano supposedly erupting at midnight on the second day. With the second, all of the logic battles and murders are cat box lies that would never actually have happened. If so, then the whole thing about Battler remembering his crime has nothing whatsoever to do with surviving and Beato's game becomes pretty much pointless. Many of the lines of red text would be completely impossible and pretty much everything game board Battler "sees" would have to be a lie too.