(L) Noragami

[ookamigirl]

Yukine sure made a mess of things.
I was surprised he didn't care about Yato's condition at all.
Daikoku was pretty impressive.
Eve though he didn't like Yato, he did his best to help.
Glad the important ones came to help Yato & Yukine.
Things got very intense for a while there.
Yukine sure was full of resentment and jealousy.
He is just such a kid who played tough all the time.
I just love that silly trio <3
This was the best episode so far!

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by sikvod00

So I assume that's the end of the Yukine arc. Overall, what did everyone think of it? My hope is that the final takeaway wasn't something as simple as "If Yukine had not been a whiny, ungrateful douche none of this would have happened. Oh, and Yato is a saint for tolerating him." Maybe I misinterpreted something, but it definitely felt like that sometimes. That's the danger of having a character who isn't immediately likable and sticking them in a relationship dynamic. The audience is going to overwhelmingly prefer one over the other. Hiyori was certainly the highlight for me in this episode. Although Yato and Yukine were enduring excruciating physical pain, I believe she was being tortured mentally. Having people you care about suffer while you helplessly look on is an awful feeling. It was very fitting that Hiyori was ultimately the one responsible for saving them, because she had been caught in the middle of their dysfunctional relationship since the beginning.

As long as people see that Hiyori is the real saint despite them talking about Yato. That's what is meant to be taken from this episode. If people still think Yato is the hero despite him outright saying Hiyori saved both of them... oh boy

Anyway, here some missing details from this chapter/episode. I might go a little farther back since this has been building up for a few episodes.

Spoiler for "Name" manga comparsion:

Yukine did a little bit more than steal the skateboard in the manga.

There's a short scene in one of the earlier chapters where Yato is fulfilling the request of some old couple, and Yukine asks for more money from the old man.

Hiyori talks to him about it, but he tells her off, saying along the lines of "I would understand it coming from someone poor, but you are in no position to lecture me given how rich you are". Hiyori left the subject alone ever since.
The equivalent to this scene in the anime would be where Yato catches him with the stolen skateboard, but Hiyori decides to cover for him saying she paid for it.
This is what Hiyori was referring to when she said she should have stopped Yukine in "Cross the Line".

Regarding the little girl turned Phantom, Yato didn't come to their rescue. After Yukine pushed her away, he and Hiyori had to make a run for it. When they finally found Yato... he was sleeping on a bench with a hangover. This is what prompts Hiyori to take Yukine into her house (not on a whim like the anime).

While there, Yukine takes all of Hiyori's money (about... 100,000 yen? not positive on the number) and eventually uses some of it to buy a PSP. Hiyori doesn't bring it up because of what Yukine told him before. Stealing Hiyori's money is one of the sins he confessed to in the manga.

Additionally, after Hiyori realizes all her money is gone on an outing with her friends, she tries to ask her father for more money. Dr. Iki, believing Hiyori simply spent all of her money and just wants more, changes his policy regarding how her allowance. From then on, Hiyori has to do chores around the house for spending money, and even then he will only give her 5-10 yen per chore (not positive on the exact number). This is something she never mentions to Yukine, though after the purification ritual Yukine works hard to pay her back in full anyway.

In the ending scene where Hiyori is frowning before she hugs them, the manga shows Yukine flinching with his eyes shut, worried that Hiyori might be angry at them. The anime is missing that part, showing how surprised he was when she hugged them instead and was just happy that they're fine now.

[Kazu-kun]

I won't do any comparison myself but I agree the manga did this arc much better.

But yeah, the real saint, the actual hero, is Hiyori.

[Haak]

I'm kinda disappointed to be honest. The episode was highly engaging and I'm glad Yukine finally learned what he did wrong but I would've liked the show to acknowledge that he might not have necessarily caused this had Yato been straight with him from the start, which unfortunately the episode never decided to explain (Regardless of whatever theories anyone cares to fashion up). If there was meant to be some sort of grand reasoning to why Yato felt this was necessary then it sure didn't look like it, especially when he felt so gracious towards Hiyori at the end.

Moreover, I was really hoping the show would finally delve into Yukine's past and explore how much of a factor it was for Yukine's personality and bad behaviour but it seems the root cause of Yukine's sins were due to other reasons entirely. If Yukine's past was explored (I'm guessing when Yukine flinched at Hiyori characterising Yato as fatherly) then it seemed token at best.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

As long as people see that Hiyori is the real saint despite them talking about Yato.

Indeed. Yato's stupidity not only nearly got himself killed but nearly turned Yukine into a phantom. The way Hiyori kept portraying Yato as an altruistic father felt a little flat because of that. Yato's a good guy who means well, but he never struck me as a good father.

[frodonk]

yukine has been grating on my nerves for many episodes now, I'm glad that they finally got that one over with, I hope they can finally move on and answer those other things they've shown, like nora or that one-eyed guy and bishamon.

[Kazu-kun]

Too bad now we'll probably have to deal with an anime-original arc for the final part of the series.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

If there was meant to be some sort of grand reasoning to why Yato felt this was necessary then it sure didn't look like it, especially when he felt so gracious towards Hiyori at the end.

There is a reason, but it's not worth worrying about at this point.

Spoiler for manga comparison:

Yato wants to keep Yukine because he empathizes with his father issues. He thinks about this when the other Shinki ask him why he let things get this bad and keeps it to himself.

The show left that out because it leaves a hint to Yato's backstory that won't be addressed until much later.

Kazuma's debt to Yato is the same, but they couldn't leave that bit out because going out of his way to help Yato wouldn't make any sense without it.

In any case, the point is that Yato wanted to keep Yukine but didn't have people skills to act like a real father, so it's natural that things would get this bad.

Originally Posted by Haak

If Yukine's past was explored (I'm guessing when Yukine flinched at Hiyori characterising Yato as fatherly) then it seemed token at best.

Uh... no, Yukine reevaluated himself when Hiyori called him her "friend". That was what stopped him before Yato sealed the deal with the whole "name" issue.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Uh... no, Yukine reevaluated himself when Hiyori called him her "friend". That was what stopped him before Yato sealed the deal with the whole "name" issue.

Yeah. I thought the anime didn't highlight that bit enough. But you're right, that was what did the trick more than the father thing.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There is a reason, but it's not worth worrying about at this point.

Spoiler for manga comparison:

Yato wants to keep Yukine because he empathizes with his father issues. He thinks about this when the other Shinki ask him why he let things get this bad and keeps it to himself.

The show left that out because it leaves a hint to Yato's backstory that won't be addressed until much later.

Kazuma's debt to Yato is the same, but they couldn't leave that bit out because going out of his way to help Yato wouldn't make any sense without it.

In any case, the point is that Yato wanted to keep Yukine but didn't have people skills to act like a real father, so it's natural that things would get this bad.

It seems MangaYato was much better characterised than AnimeYato.

Uh... no, Yukine reevaluated himself when Hiyori called him her "friend". That was what stopped him before Yato sealed the deal with the whole "name" issue.

...

Okay? Not that I didn't know that but thanks anyway...

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

...

Okay? Not that I didn't know that but thanks anyway...

You said he flinched when Hiyori characterized Yato as fatherly. That's wrong.

He did a double take on the word "friend".

His father issues have nothing to do with it. Yukine stated that he doesn't really remember his past life when Hiyori asked him a while back.

[Haak]

Oh I remembered it wrong. He didn't flinch at the mention of fathers: He noticeably stopped walking away metaphorically.

That still indicates relevance though, so I don't know what you're talking about, nor why you're getting so bent out of shape about this.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh I remembered it wrong. He didn't flinch at the mention of fathers: He noticeably stopped walking away metaphorically.

That still indicates relevance though, so I don't know what you're talking about, nor why you're getting so bent out of shape about this.

Because it's wrong, and I don't know why people are so obsessed about Yato being a crummy person when the episode states that's not the problem.

Images

Screenshot 1: Yukine has no memory of his father

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Screenshot: friend

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Yukine stopped walking away metaphorically because of Hiyori.


Yukine's problem is that no matter what he does, he will never have a normal life with friends. This is something Yato has no control over.

Therefore, what he responded to was the fact that Hiyori is his friend.

[Flower]

Three cheers for Hiyori - she really saved the day, and in so many ways. Both Yato and Yukine have way too many issues or shortcomings or weaknesses or undeveloped aspects to themselves mixed in with their talents or good qualities that it was a disaster waiting to happen. Rather than pointing the finger overmuch at either of them what was needed was someone else in this case from the beginning, and they were fortunate that that someone was available for them from the get go - i.e. it is cearly Hiyori who is responsible for both of them being alive at the moment.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Because it's wrong, and I don't know why people are so obsessed about Yato being a crummy person when the episode states that's not the problem.

Precisely because the episode states it's not the problem when it is?...

Not that this has anything to do with what I was taking about anyway.

Images

Screenshot 1: Yukine has no memory of his father

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Screenshot: friend

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Yukine stopped walking away metaphorically because of Hiyori.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop trying to deny reality here. You've given screenshots so I can assume you've watched the scene again so I can only assume you're being insultingly disingenuous and God knows why. Go to point 17:40: Hiyori says Yato's words were almost fatherly. Yukine stops walking. It's right there. Regardless of whether it contradicts established points or whether anything else factored into Yukine's recovery.

Yukine's problem is that no matter what he does, he will never have a normal life with friends. This is something Yato has no control over.

Therefore, what he responded to was the fact that Hiyori is his friend.

You're not making any sense anymore.

First of all, I quite specifically said that anything to do with Yukine's speculated father issues was purely token and that the root cause of his behaviour was due to other things, didn't I? What exactly do you think I meant by that? The exact opposite? When I said Yukine's father issues was purely token in his recovery, do you think I meant that Yukine's father issues was the sole reason behind his recovery?

And secondly, this has nothing to do with Yato's crumminess anyway. Yato has no control over Yukine's lack of a normal life nor his father issues beyond comforting him so that's completely besides the point. Yato's crumminess had nothing to do with my point about Yukine's father issues not being explored as much as I hoped it would be.

I don't know why you feel the need to take everything I say out of context and completely twist it into something unrecognisable beyond belief, but please stop.

[kuromitsu]

OK, this is exactly what I'd thought would happen after last week's episode, and sorry, but this was such BS.

Maybe, MAYBE if there was a word of apology from Yato I would've believed it. Or if someone called Yato out on his behavior with Yukine, and letting things get to this point. But I'm supposed to sympathize with Yato and think he's awesome, and also think that Yukine was a Bad Boy who needed some spanking and being told that Yato is awesome, to see the error of his ways? What the hell?

I mean, let's see if I get this right.

Yukine has a very troubled life, somehow ends up dead. As a spirit he's floating around without a consciousness until Yato forcibly turns him into his shinki and pushes him into an absolutely impossible situation. Yukine deals with this as poorly as one can expect from a troubled kid. Meanwhile, Yato absolutely fails to comfort him, or connect with him, or even communicate with him, in fact he doesn't even really try, instead behaves like an overgrown manchild even though he's like a millennium old. With Yato not dealing with Yukine properly unless it's related to his function as a shinki, Yukine just feels even worse about himself and his situation, which starts to affect Yato. Yato STILL doesn't do or say anything substantial to make Yukine understand because... otherwise there wouldn't be any drama? or something. Hiyori feels sorry for Yukine, worries about him and tries to help him, without much success, mostly because Yukine is way too troubled and can't handle Hiyori's way of helping. Meanwhile, Yato hangs around but still does nothing and lets Yukine do as he pleases.

So anyway, things get to the point where Yukine finally snaps. Turns out that his actions and state of mind have been hurting Yato something horrible all along, but instead of actually doing something, anything, Yato just suffers silently because... because otherwise there wouldn't be any drama? or because it's ~so noble~? Hiyori takes all of them to Kofuku's, where Daikoku and the others basically bully Yukine, and in the end Hiyori goes and guilt trips him into admitting that everything, EVERYTHING is actually his fault, and oh my god how could he betray Yato who has done so much for him... except of course the part where Yato didn't really do anything for him (other than not doing the worst, I suppose), and all the pain and suffering could've been perhaps avoided if Yato had behaved like the millennia-old deity he is, who should really know better. Yukine looks at Yato and apologizes over and over, tearfully, and we're supposed to think this is moving, and that Yukine has finally learned his lesson.

In the end everyone is safe, Yukine is a pile of guilty conscience, and Yato is like "sorry that Yukine was such a nuisance" and makes him apologize without a hint of self-awareness about his own responsibility in the whole mess. And everyone is like "yeah, that Yukine, he's a handful indeed." Because when it's between a troubled child who has problems accepting that he's dead, and a deity who acts as his guardian, and who's lived through an impossibly long time and knows everything about the situation they're in, clearly it's the former who is responsible for everything, and the latter is blameless and is in fact a victim.

What?

No, sorry, I'm not buying this. And I don't care what's in the manga, although from what I've read so far Yukine doing even worse things in the manga doesn't really change anything at all (in fact it makes things even worse because ffs Yato, what the hell).

But to not be all negative, the parts about Yukine's feelings about being dead were pretty good, and also him realizing that Hiyori has been her friend all along. That was really nice... too bad it was in the middle of something really cringe-inducing.

Also, poor Kaji Yuuki, his throat must've been so sore after recording this ep. He's still not Seki Tomokazu when it comes to tortured screams, but he's getting there.

[RoboMambo]

It was good nice episode, and I liked the closure for the arc, but part of it left me a bad taste. The thing is, when Hiyori says "Even when you kept betraying and hurting Yato, he kept on enduring it" she is casting a whole lot of blame on the wrong person. I'm not sure I can call Yukine the victim here, but I'd sooner call him that than guilty of betraying and hurting anyone. He didn't hurt anyone knowingly, nor is he responsible for the situation he is in and what came out of it. He was pretty much left to deal with stuff by himself, but still gets some serious guilt tripping, and the show flies with it. At least Yato finally said something truly supportive to Yukine, that actually regarded his insecurities. Because more than anything he needed someone to tell him that he is still a person and there is still something for him. Yeah, it came way too late, but better than never, kinda.

Also, noticed this episode that Hiyori is good and all, but she is also pretty condescending with Yukine, even if she doesn't realises herself. Never treated him like a person capable of making his own choices.

Right now I'm wondering if the blight is caused by commiting sins or if it depends on the shinki's emotions. I mean, did Yukine's action's caused blight because they simply did, or because Yukine recognised he was doing wrong? It's not an important distinction here, but it'd be an interesting bit of information.

[Bern-san]

Originally Posted by Flower

Three cheers for Hiyori - she really saved the day, and in so many ways. Both Yato and Yukine have way too many issues or shortcomings or weaknesses or undeveloped aspects to themselves mixed in with their talents or good qualities that it was a disaster waiting to happen. Rather than pointing the finger overmuch at either of them what was needed was someone else in this case from the beginning, and they were fortunate that that someone was available for them from the get go - i.e. it is cearly Hiyori who is responsible for both of them being alive at the moment.

I agree, Hiyori is the highlight and her role was vital. Her being human makes her able to sympathize with Yukine but still see his wrong ways.
I also want to comment on Mayu who still cared for Yato despite she wasn't too happy in her days as his shinki.

I'm surprised they left out the page where Kazuma asked Yato why he left the corruption spread for so long and then he explains his reasons for not doing anything about Yukine but still refusing to let go. That page was very important imo.

[Flower]

You know kuromitsu, I havecbeen reading your posts the past few weeks and mulling over them, and something struck me...

It seems that what the story presents is that when a god selects a regalia it does not necessarily have to include the free choice of the regalia (though it can). Regardless of free will or not when the selection is made a new dynamic and relationship is set up that has limits and consequences and boundaries. I do not think you have a problem with the idea in general.

I think what disturbs you is what you see to be an injustice or abuse or inbalance or something similar being played out in the particular example between Yato and Yukine. Am I right?

But you see, I don't think the point or main thrust of the series thus far is to defend or justify the dynamic objectively. It is what it is, and in the dynamic there can be a range of success and failures. The main point of the series is centered around Hiyori, and the main theme of this episode is Hiyori and her involvement. I do not think it is as much the point of the series to primarily present either Yato or Yukine as "in the right" or being "the ones to blame", and so I think focusing on that aspect of things might not be the ideal angle to try to make sense of the story.

Yes - both Yato and Yukine have their problems. Yes - they are both responsible for contributing to the big problem which came to a head in this ep. However, the point was it was Hiyori that was the main catalyst in resolving it, completely irrespective or who was to blame or whether or no the objective parameters of the god-regalia are fair or right or whatnot.

If someome has problems with the objective parameters of the story setting, then I would wonder why in the world they are still following the series. But I don't think you do - it kinda feels like you are letting the dysfunctionality of the particular god-regalia relationship presented up to now as the main focus overshadow the other things being presented. I could be wrong of course, and I amnot criticizing whether or no your take on the dysfunctionality is true or false, I just wonder whether you might be missing out on what the story seems to be focusing on through your emphasis?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by RoboMambo

The thing is, when Hiyori says "Even when you kept betraying and hurting Yato, he kept on enduring it" she is casting a whole lot of blame on the wrong person. I'm not sure I can call Yukine the victim here, but I'd sooner call him that than guilty of betraying and hurting anyone.

I don't know if the point here is that Hiyori is just blaming him and whatnot. I think she wants him to realize that Yato is there for him. That even if Yato couldn't do anything for him (mostly because he lacks social skills), the fact that he took that pain for him means that he cares. And giving your back to someone who cares about you is somehow a form of betrayal. It's not about blaming him; Yukine was already feeling guilty, he just couldn't admit it. The point was that he needed to realize that he isn't alone.

Heck, that's why he responded to the word "friend" so strongly. That's all he wanted deep down. He just didn't realize that he had not one but two very good friends all along.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

Precisely because the episode states it's not the problem when it is?...

Not that this has anything to do with what I was taking about anyway.



I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop trying to deny reality here. You've given screenshots so I can assume you've watched the scene again so I can only assume you're being insultingly disingenuous and God knows why. Go to point 17:40: Hiyori says Yato's words were almost fatherly. Yukine stops walking. It's right there. Regardless of whether it contradicts established points or whether anything else factored into Yukine's recovery.

"Deny reality"?

Hiyori says Yato's words were almost fatherly, then after that at 18:00, she says Yukine can't go or she'll stop being friends with him, then Yukine stops metaphorically walking.

And you're telling me I'm being insultingly disingenuous? And you wonder why I get "bent out of shape"?