Claymore Chapter 117

[hh707]

Essentially, my answer earlier is a subset of the answer to this question. The list of #1s is those who are almost certainly stronger than the Abyssals, and have the lingering question mark of potentially being far stronger (ie: in a class of their own). This leaves the Abyssals as being those drawn from the remaining 'standard' #1 class of Claymore.

If any of the listed 8 had awakened, the Org would likely have expected them to be stronger than the existing AOs, but not to any hugely notable level (eg: maybe Hysteria could have been 20% stronger than Isley; that's still within the general scope of the power of Abyssal Ones). It's only Dae's find that leads him to question the possibility of a new tier altogether.

I wonder why the Org never sent any of the 8 to hunt the Abyssal Ones. If they were stronger than Riful, Isley why not just eliminate them and be done with it??

[haegar]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Spoiler for length:

@irvinethearcher:

I think I see what you mean now. You're not trying to ask whether these #1s are stronger on the general scale of comparison between Claymores, but whether any of them might have the potential to be born into an entirely new class, as high above the Abyssals as the Abyssals are above standard ABs (ie: exactly what Priscilla is).

So Dae's question is explicitly not a question like "which of these characters is potentially a bit better than the ones we already know about", but "which of these characters could curbstomp the ones we already know about".

The other MiBs, not having a real answer to the question, constructed the list of the "especially powerful" #1s, who, if they had been deliberately holding back, could conceivably have reached an entirely new tier.

Essentially, my answer earlier is a subset of the answer to this question. The list of #1s is those who are almost certainly stronger than the Abyssals, and have the lingering question mark of potentially being far stronger (ie: in a class of their own). This leaves the Abyssals as being those drawn from the remaining 'standard' #1 class of Claymore.

If any of the listed 8 had awakened, the Org would likely have expected them to be stronger than the existing AOs, but not to any hugely notable level (eg: maybe Hysteria could have been 20% stronger than Isley; that's still within the general scope of the power of Abyssal Ones). It's only Dae's find that leads him to question the possibility of a new tier altogether.


Thus the question and answer sequence leads to a different set of implications. These are not merely Claymores who may possibly be even stronger than the previously known Abyssals, these are Claymores that may potentially have Priscilla-class power. Given that line of reasoning, along with the hints that one of them may awaken (which Dae would be perfectly happy with), it seems almost certain that whoever awakens is going to be another Priscilla-class monster.

What are the odds that they picked the right set, that one of these three will achieve Dae's expectation? He wants them to awaken, not out of cruelty or a desire to destroy the rebellion, but to simply see if it's possible that a greater power than he had ever imagined could potentially exist. I doubt his plans to control such a monster are even as advanced as Riful's plans to control the Destroyer. He just wants to see an entirely new creation be born.

We know that he missed one Priscilla-class: Teresa. For two to exist, in addition to Priscilla, that puts the odds of getting a super-AO at about 33% of the exceptionally strong #1s, who themselves would be ~maybe~ 33% of all #1s, who are themselves just 1%-2% of all Claymores who even made it out of training. Something like 1 in 1000 of all graduating Claymores.


So the question now becomes: Which of our three is going to become the next Priscilla-class opponent? And what the hell do you do about such an enemy? Time for Clare and Priscilla to come out of hiding.

that is as intriguing as it is disturbing - and if true it might hold the answer on how we get the main characters out of the unresposive blob. so maybe two of these #1s will by some twisted turn of events go down for good, costing us a lot of characters in the process and with the playing field thus leveled of too many characters the remaining one awakens to propell us into the new and possibly final arc with a huge bang. hm. na I dont think Id like this still ...intriguing

Originally Posted by hh707

I wonder why the Org never sent any of the 8 to hunt the Abyssal Ones. If they were stronger than Riful, Isley why not just eliminate them and be done with it??

possibly becasue they could despite their increased #1 level strength not beat an Abyssal without awakening, or danger thereof? and probably the ORg was afraid of in such a way worsening their predicament by creating yet another superpower. Also the status quo with three abyssal cancelling each other out served them well - for research purposes they were around - so if you wanted to send a warrior against an Abyssal to see what happens you could do that - at the same time by their numbers and their simmilar level there was little chance they messed up the orgs plans due to the carefully upheld power balance.

[irvinethearcher]

good post kinematics.
i would rep you for it but it won't let me
I personally think only roxanne could achieve it perhaps.
But they were all weaklings, otherwise they wouldn't have become dae's puppets.
teresa would have never awakened or been defeated.
I even doubt that the nr. 10 would have had a chance against someone as strong in yoki sensing as teresa. I find your idea interesting that something terrible will be the outcome of the fight. Like rimuto said, the dead should stay dead.
But i think the main fight will be between clare and priscilla.
the fate of the island will be decided there.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Before killing her idols,she went with them in several missions,and sometimes they also became a famous duo inside the org, to achieve something like that it means that Roxy stayed with her victims for months,almost surely even a few years......

Originally Posted by Irvine

But even if i would have been imprissoned in alcatraz 10 years with albert einstein there is no way i could have surpass him in quantum physics.
this means only that she needs that long time to accomodate to the power of their victims.
IMO she perhaps somehow permanently addapts/synchronizes herself to the victims yoki so that she changes her body on a cellular level or something like that.It is more than simple synchronisation, i want to say.

It simply means that roxanne stayed a long time with their victims and managed to surpass them that way every time sooner or later.
So i took the real world example and imagined me with an inborn obsession for physics imprisoned with alber einstein in a cell for 10 years in alcatraz.
After 10 years i would have been more knowledgeable in physics but still a primate compared to our albert.
The same should have been with roxanne and those number 9 or number 5. HOW THE HELL GOT ROXANNE THE ABILITY TO SURPASS THEM?
Clare is the claymore with the fastest learning speed we have seen so far. And still... she would have never been able to surpass irene by conventional means in her qs. Irene said that clearly and i posted that somewhere above. That's what i wanted to say.

[carbontaxes]

Clare v. Priscilla is DOA, not only in common sense terms (just a glance at what both of them are capable of), but much more especially for those of you who think that yoki energy=everything. By that philosophy, there could never have been a legitimate Clare v. Priscilla that could possibly make sense and/or not be broken-sauce.

But since the majority of the fanbase needs to see it, and the author himself wrote this promise into the story, some form of it needs to happen. There are only a couple of ways for that to happen and not be broken.

1) Clare and Pris emerge, whatever other beings than these 2 that still needs to be dealt with is then dealt with. But in the process, Pris gets especially harassed and weakened by a super-weapon(s) that was thrown onto the battlefield, then she gets finished by Clare/friends in a similar way that Riful died. Sort of cheap and un-fulfilling, yet logically possible, and not "wtf-no that can't happen".

2) Using the Destroyer as an equalizer for Clare. Personally I think that the Destroyer's effect on both women should be shown as much a mental prison/crucible as it is a physical prison. Some could say a chrysalis depending on the outcome for either woman. The way that the author can present the Destroyer as a fair distributor of extra power to both women, is to give each one a chance to overcome their mental/spiritual frailties that they each struggled with in life. Priscilla can be confronted with her mutilated family blaming her for their deaths; she has the chance to see this image as a lie and identify what is truly important in the world. She could also be confronted by Theresa's apparition, blaming her for killing someone that was actually a force for what is right in the world and blindly following the callous Organization. Pris can fail to learn anything from these tortuous visions and be ejected from the Destroyer exactly as she entered.

Clare can be confronted by Theresa's image, pushing much the same guilt complex trip, blaming her for Theresa's weakness as a warrior as well as her eventual death. She could also be confronted by Jean, doing much the same (even though it would be a lie, Clare obviously had a serious mental block over this issue). If Clare could see past these lies, she would then be given instruction, or simply bestowed with, some of Theresa's techniques, and be ejected from the Destroyer with an actual deserved power-up. About the only thing that could logically be presented that could elevated an otherwise "pathetic" Clare to battle an entity like Priscilla and not look like cheating.

Also, no matter what the author actually does with the Destroyer, I'm pretty sure that Destroyer chapter will be THE most trippy/cerebral/awesome looking panels of the series are going to be in the chapter that deals with the Destroyer as the two women are getting ready to emerge. I think it's going to be a well drawn, mental bonanza that should be a very welcome change from the sword fighting of (almost) every single other chapter. But I don't think the Destroyer is going to finally pop until next year.

[Korinov]

Well, Roxanne probably had a lot of potential, the MiBs knew about it. The fact that Priscilla was judged ready to be #2 just after graduating doesn't mean it always happens that way... I'd even say she got the #2 because the MiBs were already thinking about Teresa's "retirement", it's been clearly stated that they don't like warriors staying alive too long, and Teresa had proven to be cunning and inteligent enough to end up becoming troublesome (she knew about the Org sending armies of yoma to obliterate towns that didn't pay).

State of things when Roxanne graduated was different. This is just speculation, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Roxanne had already shown, as a trainee, a similar behaviour to the one we've seen in the flashback (idolizing someone else, learning her techniques, surpassing her, then backstabbing). Maybe the MiBs knew they had true #1 material in Roxanne but knew about her 'methods' and decided to let her continue that way. Hence the low number (they knew about her potential, the number is just a number) and getting her into hunting squads pretty early, even making groups of five just to include her.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by haegar

Spoiler for OT, reply to double friedman, goral, ryus, concerning miria in 107:

ah ryus actually he was refering to a specific shot I posted, and in that you can see one panel top right were #10 is indeed still powered down he is totally right about that- the point in question though if that specific panel, in fact the whole showing of #10 is "taken out of time" for dramatic reason by yagi - that is my line of argument which I will elaborate more once I have the time at 107:

yes, by simple and obvious order of panels, FIRST mira got cut, and MISSED, THEN AFTER THAT #10 powered up - HOWEVER... if you consider the way she fought the twins in 106, and assume that (despite misjudging by going to the org in the first place) she has not totally lost it - then the fight makes much more sense under the assumption that the timing by yagi is off here: imagine the scene showing #10 as a tiny, in chapter flashback - we see miria fighting, holding out against them, yes as rubel indicates it taxes her, but only cause she is bent on sparing them - then, SUDDENLY she missed and gets hit, she is suprised, us readers are suprised...wtf is going on?! THIS HEIGHTENS THE TENSION (yagi rly overhyped the emo on the scene -.-) and then after that he belatedly hands us the explanation for what is happening. I cant express it better than this on the fly. I feel it helps if you imagine it like a series of shots in an action movie, very little time passes rly, and actually events at two places happen at the same time: down there the 3 of them fight, up there #10 observes and gets to work. it is the decission of the director in what order he "changes angles" between those 2 locations ...and that changes the time perception. that is my feeling of what yagi did here...and considering the heated debate it sprouted I think it was a mistake (as the whole miria buisiness was handled a bit subpar for his standards)

Ah, now things are starting to make sense... I thought I started reading where I left off yesterday but apparently missed your post so I was at a complete loss at what DF was talking about

I'll reread it all now... hoping it makes sense this time.

[Fermat]

Originally Posted by hh707

After learning about Roxanne, Cassandra, and Hysteria, am I the only one that wants to know about the other 4? Hopefully yagi will reveal more about Licht, Sistina, Chloe, and Lutecia!!

Was this already asked?? Would Roxannes ability to erase her Yoki presence been effective against Teresa? Since, we don't really know a lot about it, does Roxanne have the ability to use her Yoki while preventing her opponents from seeing/tracking her yoki?? If so she would have been a better challenge for Teresa, right?

Nope, you're not the only one. Speculating about them was a bit fun back when their names were revealed in Scene 110. I'm particularly interested in Lutecia, because her nickname "the Universal" just seems cool; Chloe and Sistina, not so much. Chloe likely had immense strength, while Sistina probably had Teresa-like quasi-precognitive abilities. Licht's nickname has been the subject of many green jokes from me. Some have speculated he's male, though this would be proven false if indeed there was only one male generation as stipulated by some, so I've joked about the third arm being... Ah, you guys fill in the blanks. Haha!

It's unlikely Yagi will reveal more about them, though. If they get resurrected and each receive fairly long flashback sequences, I can't even begin to imagine the amount of ranting and "OMG, wers CLAIR?!!1!11!!" comments many fanboys/girls will spew out. The three resurrected ones are already receiving their share of disapproval.

Originally Posted by haegar

possibly becasue they could despite their increased #1 level strength not beat an Abyssal without awakening, or danger thereof?

Yup, I agree. If they perceived that a warrior (likely No. 1) could potentially defeat an AO, then sending her over to kill the AOs carried far too much risk. The Organization likely considered the scenario that that particular warrior would end up awakening and become a new AO that's even more powerful than the one she managed to kill. There's also the worst case scenario of the warrior awakening before managing to kill the AO, adding to the number of ridiculously powerful ABs in the process.

[Shiek927]

I feel I should point out Kinematics that their is, putting it mildly, a huge gap between The Abyssals and Priscilla/Teresa. I'm not gonna annoy Ryus with my math on the subject again (), but remember -- it's not one or the other. The gap between No.1-5 and everyone else applies even more so for them...it almost seems like the gaps between powerlevels increase the stronger the person is.

Getting to the point, the three if they awaken may be as strong or stronger then the Abyssals, but not necessarily as strong as Teresa/Priscilla are (they can be only somewhat stronger then the Abyssals): to be that powerful would be the absolute best case scenario for the Org (more likely worse once they start rebelling), not necessarily what they were expecting.

[murikibishii]

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

Also, no matter what the author actually does with the Destroyer, I'm pretty sure that Destroyer chapter will be THE most trippy/cerebral/awesome looking panels of the series are going to be in the chapter that deals with the Destroyer as the two women are getting ready to emerge. I think it's going to be a well drawn, mental bonanza that should be a very welcome change from the sword fighting of (almost) every single other chapter. But I don't think the Destroyer is going to finally pop until next year.

Hell no, letting some mental mumbo-jumbo be the decider would suck as totally as can be. Unfortunately you're right that we'll more than likely be getting some random mental crap going on instead of a resolution fitting the overall (fantasy) realism of this manga. I'm dreading it already. Hey Yagi, at least kill Helen and Deneve for me to keep some reality in this! It'd be best if Roxanne relieved them of their undeserved ninth lives, she's a welcome breeze of good old-fashioned deviousness. I'm rooting for you, Roxanne!

[Xion Valkyrie]

It's too bad we never saw how strong Rafaela was. Since she's basically identical in power to Luciela, we could get a good gauge of how strong the abyssals were before they awakened.

So the question really is, do you think these current 3 #1's are stronger than Rafaela.

Also, the MiB seem to be very terrible at estimating power. They didn't even realize the true potential of either Teresa or Priscilla.

[Fermat]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

It's too bad we never saw how strong Rafaela was. Since she's basically identical in power to Luciela, we could get a good gauge of how strong the abyssals were before they awakened.

So the question really is, do you think these current 3 #1's are stronger than Rafaela.

Also, the MiB seem to be very terrible at estimating power. They didn't even realize the true potential of either Teresa or Priscilla.

Well, yeah. The only time we really saw Rafaela fight was against Clare in that imaginary plane of existence. All we saw was that she was quick enough to block all the blows of a WC with normal sword swings. As far as I know, no one's been able to do that, well, except for Miria, but she was using her New Mirages at the time. However, Rafaela wasn't quick enough to parry the blows of a QS, unlike a certain godly No. 1 we all know too well; so nope, not Teresa-level (as if this even needed to be said). Of course, Teresa had her amazing yoki sensing to guide her swings against Irene's QS, so it might be a bit unfair to compare the two of them just based on battling against a QS user (though my conclusion that Teresa would pwn her in seconds stands). Also, what we saw was basically just an agility measurement, as for overall power, we can only extrapolate given her Organization rating. I'd venture a guess as a level or two above Irene, maybe near Priscilla's level (with better spirit/mentality) when she was a claymore.

As for the three resurrected warriors, I'd say they're probably stronger than Rafaela, but not by a very large margin. Maybe close to, at, or just slightly above Priscilla's level as a claymore?

[bakaelite]

The thing is, Rafaela has been fighting for years without using her yoki. And seeing as how she was assigned as the Organisation's purger, she's essentially lived her life killing wayward claymores. So she's particularly experienced to fight against other warriors. Granted, it's unlikely she faced a high-ranking deserter, but I think she'd be on par with the current number three's. I mean, Miria's doing pretty well atm against Hysteria, meaning her yoki quality has greatly improved from the original databook to now. So Rafaela, who's yoki was ranked A since the begnning, could have greatly improved her yoki quality as well by fighting without it for so long. Add her years of experience (she may have been the longest living claymore, since she was way before Teresa's generation) and she could easy be a match for the revived number ones.

The only thing is that Rafaela doesn't really have a "signature" move, much like Alicia and Beth, which may be problematic. But then, she (like Alicia and Beth) were likely trained to excel in all areas as all-around superb fighters, even if their particular skills in one area was not as good as a specialist. However, with all the soul-linking training, Rafaela had very sharp yoki sensing, so while she may not be as fast as Hysteria or Cassandra (when she's using her Dust Eater mode), she could probably defend against their attacks.

[Double_friedman]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

It's too bad we never saw how strong Rafaela was. Since she's basically identical in power to Luciela, we could get a good gauge of how strong the abyssals were before they awakened.

So the question really is, do you think these current 3 #1's are stronger than Rafaela.

Also, the MiB seem to be very terrible at estimating power. They didn't even realize the true potential of either Teresa or Priscilla.

As a claymore, Raph was great, but as an AOne (Luciella the identical), not so much. Alicia and Beth were way too stronger than the sisters by the time they two awakened, since they were completed 7 years ago and had 7 years to train more.

I have the impression that Hysteria and Roxie are more powerful than Ralph. Both have great techniques and sword ability. I guess Cassie would have many problems fighting Raph, given her number 5 level, and her non perfect sword technique.

[SuperKnuckles]

My, my. Cassandra's technique could be some of the deadliest yet.

Basically a Dempsey Roll on steroids.

[haegar]

btw considering all the recent posts on powerlevels of Abyssals vs resurrected #1s, what do you folks feel is the #1s overall function in the plot - being introduced at this point?

I mean there was a progression in powerlevel going along with the characters evolution up to forming the Ghosts, from yoma, to Awakends to awakend single digits to Abyssal ones - however, while some of the Ghosts have engaged in fights and interacted with them in some way, they were still shown to be a farcry of getting anywhere near their level (with the exception of speculating on Clare's completely awakend powers)

There is this symmetry between the three Abyssals that dominated the story back then, and the three #1s that now dominate the fight against the ORG - so what do you feel where will it most likely go? Are they there simply to decimate the currently rather large number of characters 'pieta-style'? Are they a sort of mirror-image of the Abyssals, intended to show that the Ghosts by now have become a force to be reconned with even at that level? Are they simply there because Yagi tired of mindless feeder-style opponents and wants to go back to the roots?

And what does all this maybe begin to tell us about the current stage of the main story, and how long it still might last? Like on the one hand I feel Yagi now taking his time with these three newly introduced characters suggests there is still quite a bit more to come - on the other hand the level this all is reaching likewise indicates he is in the process of preparing the field for the final stages of plot / final arc?

What say you?!

[MalakTawus]

@irvinethearcher

But 20 abyssal ones are still waaaaaaayyyyyy weaker than teresa. Perhaps 500 abyssal ones can beat teresa when she eventually runs out of yoki but even here i am not that sure.

Don't you think you are exaggerating a "little"???

Teresa is strong,but 500 abyssals would destroy her.........(maybe if she awakens,maybe)



....about what i said about Roxanne,i get what you said,but it had nothing to do with what i was talking about,that's why i didn't understand.

[irvinethearcher]

Your post before was only meant as a template to build my thinking on top of it. It was not that i wanted to contradict you.

I don't know, to be honest. Perhaps even 1000 couldn't harm her or perhaps her limit is 200.
I think the wars in the claymoreverse are not won by numbers.
I think we have to free our minds from this thinking in numbers.
How surprised the mib was about what the three number ones did to the other claymores despite it was the expected outcome in every way.
Remember, there is the possibility that teresa only played with rosemary.
She riped her arm off at 0% what indicates that she could have ripped her into shreds with 0% yoki and her bare hands if she had wanted to.
This let me think about die hard one...
"Now i have a claymore, ho ho ho!"
We have never seen teresa at 50% and i am sure that awakened priscilla with a full belly could easily kill 500 abyssal ones after what she did to alicia and beth in her human form.

[carbontaxes]

All this would indicate that the final battles on the island would make even DBZ blush

[SagaraSouske]

The list of #1 listed was stated to have possibility to awaken into AO class. It does not necessarily mean they are stronger then Riful, Isley and Luciella. It could be that they are around the same level and thus may turn into abyssals had they awakened. Cassandra, Roxanne and Hysteria may not be the strongest of the ones listed since they are the only ones with full body that can be resurrected among the list.

I wonder if they will do a background chapter on Hysteria too. Now it is looking like:
Cassandra will die.
Roxanne will awaken.
Hysteria may defect.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Cassandra, Roxanne and Hysteria may not be the strongest of the ones listed since they are the only ones with full body that can be resurrected among the list.

i understood it the way that they were the by the org considered strongest three from those with a body which can be resurrected