2022-01-09, 05:07 | Link #34803 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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2022-01-20, 06:53 | Link #34809 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Also I never doubted Atalante's ability, I doubted her devotion to the cause. Kitty Archer betrayed us before, and no, it's irrelevant that she was a Berserker at that point, as she is still the same Servant, especially non FGO wise. Now, Imagine what would have happened if Artemis Avatar had come down to meet Atalante instead of Orion. She may be a good fit for Koyans, but is a really BAD one for this Losbelt. Quote:
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Ad Cerberus: Not applicable at all. First of all, we are again back to the point that Herc wasn't out to Kill his opponent, while Orion was. Killing something with a strong blow against a physical weakpoint is comparingly easy, ton wrestle something into submission, as in the latter case, the thing you try to wrestle actually has a chance to fight beck. Also, he only killed one of them instantly, and that was also charging at him, the other one he had to fight first. i.E. his attack actually got stronger due to the speed the Cerberus had built up. Putting aside, that the Cerberus got hit literally at it's most perilous weak point, all it took is skill to hit him there (In that case not even that much, as he just bashed in his brain.), which I never doubted he had. Ad Ceanis: Actually, the only reason he could hurt Ceanis, was that he had Poseidon's heart. Which wasn't even something he had thought of himself, but it was either Jason or again Caldea. Quote:
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Other Casters such as Sheba or Tamamo would be far better sources here. Then again, 3 Tails Tamamo's buffs would probably work better against Artemis to begin with, as the Witchcraft skill can bypass magic resistance. Quote:
Until you give him a bow. Yes, he might spawn without Hera's bow, but that doesn't mean that he can't use bows period. Quote:
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Ilya is also not exactly the smartest of Masters, the smart move here would have been forsaking Madness Enhancement and give Herc 100% thinking power. The same fight would have gone very differently with a proper master, the same way it went way differently when Medusa finally got rid of Shinji as her Master. Quote:
And while it is, unlike Excalibur, not unbreakable, it still had the same power output as the former, while combining (most of) Excalibur's and Avalon's properties in one item. Quote:
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Almost the same as Mordred vs Siegfried, where I can tell you that Siegfried would have blasted through her, due to Mordred's Dragon attribute... Not to mention that he is smarter too. Quote:
That aside, since we can get a pretty good idea about who the casters were, we don't even know how strong those buffs were, or if they were helping at all. Quote:
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Yes, you needed some divinity of your own, which was however rather relative as almost all Greek heroes claim to have some, at least ancient, blood relation to the gods. --- I somehow managed to draw Beni - Maybe Koijiro will someday get his duel now I really don't like the Amazoness Event. I don't even mind the part where my Servants get put to rest for some time, what I do mind though is that 99% of my AP are rotting due to each delivery only costing 1AP. At the same time the game is telling me to use 6 Servant,s forcing me to use at least 3, when each of those deliveries can be done with a single AOE servant. E: also Ishtar, now I'm just lacking Eresh.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2022-01-20 at 08:59. |
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2022-01-20, 10:51 | Link #34810 |
150% done
Join Date: Feb 2012
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They literally spell out that he's been a dead man walking from the start
I'm going to put the rest in a spoiler, as it's largely just more back and forth that doesn't really matter to the crux of our argument anyway. Spoiler for length:
In the end this is largely all irrelevant, though, because of the factor of Hephaestus having known about Herc and never once considering him for opposition to Artemis. Heracles just flat-out isn't capable and was never once implied to be capable of opposing Artemis. Orion is a fucking Grand Servant who explicitly has more raw strength than Herc and a Noble Phantasm uniquely suited for attacking Artemis...and still needed massive support and backup to stand a chance. There were at least two different times during the arrow duel that someone else (Hector, Mandricardo) had to step in to stop an arrow to buy Orion more time, and Paris had to give him another arrow forged from himself, and then Orion had to draw on all of those factors plus his own connection to Artemis to create Ortygia Amore Tri-Star to actually win. Herc had none of those things and even if you gave him the bow and arrows, he lacks the Noble Phantasm to pierce her defenses, the allies capable of diverting other shots, the physical strength to survive that number of shots (don't say God Hand we already established Divine Constructs (like the bow) bypass that), and the ability to create something equivalent to Ortygia Amore Tri-star. Not to mention that even Orion needed to be in a specific spot unmolested for the entire time to carry out the duel, which required beating back Odysseus and the new Echidna, which means Herc likely wouldn't have ever had the chance to try it.
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2022-01-20, 20:11 | Link #34813 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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A mystic code isn't exactly something you can sneak onto people in FGO. Quote:
And Adult Medea, who is again more powerful than Lily, got beaten by freaking Rin. It doesn't even matter that it happened when she was a Servant, and by you weaker than when alive, as Lily would have lost that one too if you make her trade spaces with her adult version. Then again, Lily wouldn't have been as hostile to begin with. Why doesn't it matter: Rin isn't there. Instead the ones there are other Servants and divine spirits. QUOTE=XFire;6499460] None of this is correct. The kill/not kill thing you're talking about doesn't exist and any experienced martial artist you brought that up to would laugh his ass off at the idea. Cerberus' head is not a weak point, it has two backups if one goes down. The only reason Orion didn't kill the second one was because it snuck up and actually latched on to him, preventing him from getting a good shot at it.[/quote] I fully disagree here. First off, of course it's a weak point it's a freaking brain right behind that skull. The point that they even remarked where he hit him is proof of that, as it would have otherwise been meaningless to even mention it. That fictional Martial Artist you are talking about, won't laugh long, when he dead. Especially considering how we aren't even talking about a human, but some kind of animal. Again, most of the places you can use to knock a human out can be very lethal. Not even sure why you deny the solarplexus here, considering how you literally can't breath when hit there, even without the right amount of force to knock you out. And let's not forget about the dozen of cases where securities thinking they could just knock people out cold on their heads, only for them getting charged with 2nd or 3rd degree murder later. That aside, this isn't even about a human, it's about a freaking animal with sharp claws and teeth. (Also 3 sets of said teeth.) And again: Herc wrestled it into submission, in both legend and fate. Orion on the other hand killed it. Could herc just have killed it? Of course, he did the same with the Hydra, which has even more heads than a giant 3 headed dog. Fun enough, the story itself even kinda agrees with me, as Odysseus got killed by an enemy he didn't properly kill, and that fought back. Also, if you read his profile, you will soon find that any beast type thing just drops dead when orion gets summoned as Grand Archer. That's not particular muscle strength, it's a part of his Grand Graph. QUOTE=XFire;6499460] Because Caenis has an invincibility button over water, and it would have worked just the same against Herc as it did Orion. The moment it was gone Orion obliterated her despite her explicitly being comparable to a Divine Spirit even without it.[/quote] Which is exactly why Orion beating her up wasn't all that special. First off, he had help, second off, Achilles without his heel cut could have done the same, as could herc have, if you gave him the poseidon-heart. Yes Herc would have lost a few lives, but that is mostly because he literally doesn't give a shit about them until he is down to about half. Quote:
Also, the solarplexus is an actual body part, which is indeed a weak point as being hit there can both kill you or knock you out. Quote:
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3 Tails Tamamo is already stronger than most A-Rank servants, if not even S rank, we don't know that as we weren't given the S-Ranked ones power level. A Ranked ones have a Raw Power of approx 100 though, while 3 Tails Tamamo has 729. And no, Medea isn't S-Ranked. The even funnier thing here is that we don't even know if that is really her full power at that level, as even her one tailed version has been shown to far exceed the given power level simply by actually using her morph skill. Because unlike in FGO, it's not necessarily a purely defensive skill. More on that later though. Quote:
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The reason why he didn't vanish could be several fold btw., as his lives can actually regenerate, and he also has a guts skill. Quote:
Especially in fate, where Archer has already taken the majority of them using UBW. Quote:
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the power levels we do know (and are still unreliable, due to her not using Morph are: Sefar, Amaterasu, A Rank Servants, and all tail versions of Tamamo. It's also noteworthy that the one who actually shot it wasn't Arthoria, but Zeus. Quote:
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Also, knowing Nasu, Herc would have either changed classes all of a sudden, or randomly pull out one of his Archer skills out of his ass, maybe even combine the bow with Athena's bow. Not sure what makes you assume that, given that everyone and everything was held back by others than Orion himself at that moment. What exactly makes you think they wouldn't have protected Herc?
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2022-01-21, 18:50 | Link #34814 |
150% done
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size Also, I'm not going to be addressing the Kill/Not kill thing going forward because you're beginning to make me genuinely concerned for your safety around wild animals, and I don't want you to get hurt trying to "prove" me wrong.
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2022-01-21, 18:54 | Link #34815 |
150% done
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Actually, as fun as this has been, we've pretty much hit the limits of this discussion. It did get me to go re-read Atlantis (and yes, Herc dying was the last thing that happened, Jason had the code on the entire time, and Herc was alive when they met Hephaestos) but at this point I don't think it matters.
I get the idea this is mostly an emotional argument from you wanting to see Herc do something cool in FGO again, and I get that, but we're clogging the thread. So you can respond to my comment and then we can both drop it. Do me a favor and drop it in a spoiler tag for size concerns though.
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2022-01-29, 12:17 | Link #34817 |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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This CQ is made so easy by Morgan.....Put her with Casturia and Merlin and she slowly grinds any opposition to death.
However, her NP's anti-Man buff helped a lot. If the enemies were some other trait it would be far slower. Like FAR slower. I am really starting to think she is one of those Servants who needs NP2 and above to be viable else her damage on non-Man is far too crap.
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fgo, gacha, ios, type-moon |
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