(L) Kaguya-sama wa kokurasetai

[WingedAccelerator]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Is it really that complicated to you? Ishigami didn't think of Iino as a potential candidate because he thought she hated him. Now that Iino has been changing her attitude, even getting into the same hobbies as him, he thinks that it might work.

He has always been protective of Iino since middle school so he definitely has a soft spot for her.

It's not complicated. It was not shown at all through Ishigami's POV how Iino is changing this much. Simple as that.
In comparison, you see Tsubame interacting with him, trying to be helpful during the Sports Festival, then the confirmation happens later that Ishigami fell for her. Easy to believe. Yet, no such things during their chapters post-Tsubame. Cue third paragraph, the past card.

Aka gave up on making this pair getting together flow seamelessly. The Tsubame depression and Iino not taken seriously phases lasted way longer than it needed. Break after break, one month break, and this is how things should progress, huh. From nowhere. And I repeat myself: Not a single thing Iino tried to do had a result, yet she gets rewarded because of reasons, probably Aka wanting to wrap things up slowly, but surely.

Since no doubt this topic will resurface again and again, I'm sick and tired of always encountering the boring "Ishigami helped her this and that time in the past" arguments. They are completely irrelevant in the current situation and didn't influence Ishigami one bit. It just gives a wonderful irony to these debates. "Iino is not special from the start and Ishigami is not in love with her all this time..." Yet these examples always keep coming back with their foundations on being past events, heavily suggesting the opposite. As if Tsubame never existed or people are really undermining her, Ishigami's Sun

[Tenzen12]

Of course it had clear and obvious result. They naturaly hang out for while already. Ishigime always held affection toward Iino and now that he knows she doesn't hate him things just smoothly progress. Iino doesn't need change Ishigami, because Ishigami can be together with her as he is already. Issue was with Iino not Ishigami, that's why he doesn't need to change.

And while Tsubame left deep impression on Ishigami, he is not loner (well that as much of loner) that he can't function as person without her around. He had crush on her, got his heart broken and now he's moving on (and it's not even his first time). We all went through that at least once and I believe most people didn't need dramatic breakthroughs or had to have someone else to change who they are.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

It's not complicated. It was not shown at all through Ishigami's POV how Iino is changing this much. Simple as that.
In comparison, you see Tsubame interacting with him, trying to be helpful during the Sports Festival, then the confirmation happens later that Ishigami fell for her. Easy to believe. Yet, no such things during their chapters post-Tsubame. Cue third paragraph, the past card.

Aka gave up on making this pair getting together flow seamelessly. The Tsubame depression and Iino not taken seriously phases lasted way longer than it needed. Break after break, one month break, and this is how things should progress, huh. From nowhere. And I repeat myself: Not a single thing Iino tried to do had a result, yet she gets rewarded because of reasons, probably Aka wanting to wrap things up slowly, but surely.

Since no doubt this topic will resurface again and again, I'm sick and tired of always encountering the boring "Ishigami helped her this and that time in the past" arguments. They are completely irrelevant in the current situation and didn't influence Ishigami one bit. It just gives a wonderful irony to these debates. "Iino is not special from the start and Ishigami is not in love with her all this time..." Yet these examples always keep coming back with their foundations on being past events, heavily suggesting the opposite. As if Tsubame never existed or people are really undermining her, Ishigami's Sun

Thus why I talked of this in terms of shipping. Shipping creates a very heavy bias, resulting in you (and me, and everyone who ships) seeing some things very easily, ignoring or failing to notice other things, and coloring the interpretations very strongly. Case in point, from your perspective Tsubame was something obvious that Aka "gave up on". To me, it was absolutely never believable. Sure, I understood why he'd have a crush on her, but it was always in my eyes just that, a very superficial crush that had no future and honestly was never meant to. Rather than "he gave up" I'd more define it as "he never meant it to happen, and so never made it anything more than a one-sided thing".

On the other hand, the slow change in Miko's behavior is completely ignored or dismissed because there weren't enough occasions that deliberately and explicitly showed Ishigami taking direct note of how she's been nicer. Never mind that we've seen her act nicer and less prone to dismissal gradually over the course of the series, he didn't repeatedly comment "wow she's getting nice lately" so it's not enough. Well, the little bits here and there are enough for me, just like what I saw as a shallow feelings of "she's nice and has a pretty smile" had deeper things that were more than enough for you. We're both biased, we both see things the other doesn't see and either didn't notice, didn't see, or deliberately ignored things that the other saw.

As for the "Ishigami helped her in the past" bit, it is relevant because of things like the worries that he might say he always loved her, or the constant insistent that she was never special at all. It's been made abundantly clear through the way that he not only "helped her a few times" but went out of his way to interfere with the bullying, even anticipate coming problems and try to prevent them before they occur, that he never saw her as just another face in the crowd, just a random person who he occasionally saved then forgot. He respected her, admired her, and detested the way she was treated and thus made a point of protecting her. This was established all the way back in the elections, and didn't change. It's relevant here because claiming that there's nothing special in his feelings toward her would require that one either ignore that past or assume that he's completely changed in his opinion toward her, despite the fact that there's also been absolutely nothing to suggest his opinion changed in that way. Instead, his opinion has always been that she's someone who hates him, who at most tolerates his presence, and his behavior has been modeled around that belief. He said as much very early on, when discussing dating with Miyuki, and when that simple belief is taken into account all those spots you insist demonstrate he doesn't care about her or dislikes her make perfect sense.

[Tenzen12]

Narratively speaking Ishigami x Tsubame weren't on same page since beginning to end and that's why it didn't work out. Ishigami heavily invested himself into that relationship but that doesn't change that he never truly understood her.

Arguing whether Ishigima x Iino would work is one thing, but even if it was terribly written and didn't work at all, it wouldn't Ishigami x Tsubame better alternative. Ishigimi x Maki or Ishigami x Gamer girl (what was her name again?) or even Ishigami x Chika would be still better as there is at least some chemistry.

[BWTraveller]

Regardless, one thing I've learned from this thread is that ship wars are roughly equivalent to pitting a religious zealot who believes illness is a curse and prayer will always heal the true faithful against an atheistic zealot who treats the belief in a supreme being like an adult who still believes in the tooth fairy.

[WingedAccelerator]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Arguing whether Ishigima x Iino would work is one thing, but even if it was terribly written and didn't work at all, it wouldn't Ishigami x Tsubame better alternative.

When Aka clearly preferred to show Iino's suffering instead of truly focusing on Ishigami x Tsubame content, I really wonder why people seem to think that both heroine were on equal grounds or something. And I have already mentioned that too that Iino came to this story with prior knowledge and an already established dynamic with Ishigami and vice versa, where you don't have to make up something from scrath instead you rely on their narrative history. It's easy to see why people prefer them instead. But even with these things, I bet that majority of the readers would be head over heels for Tsubame in the first vanilla dating chapter, if she would have accepted Ishigami's confession. But we will never know.

I'm also not asking for impossible demands here. Iino acted the same, unbearable, easily flipping Iino in the Discord advertisement chapter, which was roughly 10 chapters ago. I collected the Ishigami x Iino chapters for a reason to prove that it's awfully generous of Aka to write that Ishigami noticed a positive change in Iino, which was recently undergoing, when pre or post-Tsubame chapters focusing on them barely gave you anything or didn't give you anything at all, where Iino is noticeably treats him a lot better that shatters his belief that she hated him all this time. Or if she took a step in the right direction, she took two steps back immediately in a folow-up chapter.

So all in all, yes, we have our bias regarding the pairs. But I don't think I'm seriously off the mark when it comes to wanting unquestionable present bonding, insight, realization based on actual events happening present time after all of Ishigami's negative, pessimistic feedbacks towards Iino, and not relying on their past history together to justify it majority if not all the time. That's all from me for this week.

[BWTraveller]

Sure, Miko still had a temper during the Discord arc, and the same stubbornness. But she was still different in terms of her attitude toward Ishigami. Earlier on she couldn't even bring herself to acknowledge any positive traits in him. Back in their old fights it'd be over him playing games or just being in her line of sight. Big difference from "why won't you talk to me you jerk!" The things that have been shown are for me already clear and more than enough in my opinion to get the point across. Especially given the state that the characters are in. With Ishigami's reluctance it'd feel a little jarring to me if he were too frequently or openly recognizing Miko's affections and how happy he is about it. Showing him holing himself up instead, resisting even acknowledgment of another route to love, feels more appropriate.

[WingedAccelerator]

Callback to Chapter 20, and the things that have yet to come.

Spoiler for Chapter 239:

Miyuki and Kaguya mentions the Exchange Party that happens tomorrow. They are not the organizers this year, so they are off the hook.

Except we have the reappearance of Betsy, who has a talk with Miyuki. Apparently she is still scared of Kaguya and the Shinomiya Family to a greater extent since they are painted like serious criminals even in France.

This topic aside, the preparations for the event are also in an absolutely disastrous state, so Betsy wants Miyuki's help. Miyuki reluctantly seems to agree, but also states that the Principal is useless again. Betsy however defends the Principal, but also reveals that Miyuki was being tested back then.

The Principal still plays Pokémon GO, when Miyuki meets with him. He confirms he tested Miyuki and talks about how someone capable is needed in this special school. Surprise, surprise, the bald Kaguya brother, Shinomiya Oko is like the real ruler of the school, and the Shinomiya Family's power extends to such great lengths that it's a really dirty society they are living in.

It must be Miyuki who protects Kaguya using his bonds and connections with people against this overwhelming power. Miyuki asks why would the Principal go this far for Kaguya, but he rather talks about a Snoopy quote with how you are playing with the cards you are dealt. They just don't know their cards yet. But until they figure it out, they shouldn't just blindly follow the orders of adults.

Something like this. Dunno, it will probably make more sense translated. The Principal goes for a Raid Battle, thus ending the chapter.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Callback to Chapter 20, and the things that have yet to come.

Spoiler for Chapter 239:

Miyuki and Kaguya mentions the Exchange Party that happens tomorrow. They are not the organizers this year, so they are off the hook.

Except we have the reappearance of Betsy, who has a talk with Miyuki. Apparently she is still scared of Kaguya and the Shinomiya Family to a greater extent since they are painted like serious criminals even in France.

This topic aside, the preparations for the event are also in an absolutely disastrous state, so Betsy wants Miyuki's help. Miyuki reluctantly seems to agree, but also states that the Principal is useless again. Betsy however defends the Principal, but also reveals that Miyuki was being tested back then.

The Principal still plays Pokémon GO, when Miyuki meets with him. He confirms he tested Miyuki and talks about how someone capable is needed in this special school. Surprise, surprise, the bald Kaguya brother, Shinomiya Oko is like the real ruler of the school, and the Shinomiya Family's power extends to such great lengths that it's a really dirty society they are living in.

It must be Miyuki who protects Kaguya using his bonds and connections with people against this overwhelming power. Miyuki asks why would the Principal go this far for Kaguya, but he rather talks about a Snoopy quote with how you are playing with the cards you are dealt. They just don't know their cards yet. But until they figure it out, they shouldn't just blindly follow the orders of adults.

Something like this. Dunno, it will probably make more sense translated. The Principal goes for a Raid Battle, thus ending the chapter.

Already sound like a promising chapter compare to the previous chapter.

[Kuroageha]

^
That's a low bar bro.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Sixth

Already sound like a promising chapter compare to the previous chapter.

Thanks for updating us that your opinion on last chapter has not changed.

This DOES look like an interesting chapter. I wonder just how far it's going to go with what was said. If possible I'd love to see everyone have a proper role in overcoming the situation. If they're going on about needing his bonds and connections, I'd rather it not come down to simply manpower. It's certainly doable. Everyone has their own unique families with unique political and professional connections as well as unique personal strengths. Might be asking for a lot, but I think it'd be real cool if everyone applied those unique strengths and connections to the problem.

[magnuskn]

Well, they will have to address the whole Shinomiya family drama sooner rather than later, good to see this aspect of the manga is moving forward, finally.

[Shadow5YA]

It's not really realistic to have Miyuki overthrow the Shinomiyas under a year, even if he somehow won over every student in the academy right now.

I think it would much easier and more possible to get them to give up on Kaguya though.

[BWTraveller]

That’s all he really needs to do. All he wants. He might eventually take them on full scale if they try to interfere again, but for the moment forcing them to free Kaguya and maybe dealing with the worst brother seems much more reasonable. Maybe get another brother to ally himself to take him down in exchange for her freedom.

[Kanon]

Mikado will probably be the key player.

[WingedAccelerator]

The chapter is out.

I get what Aka wants to say, but the odds are seriously against Miyuki. The best way to go about this is to settle the goal as soon as possible. Do they want to obliterate the Shinomiya Family, or do they want to set Kaguya free/make the family disown her? The former needs really damn good writing when it comes to kids saving the heroine from the corrupt world of adults, and I'm pessimistic Aka has it in him. I fear the anticlimactic conclusion with a copout regarding Kaguya's father. The latter is way easier, has a lot of room. But please, don't go with it last minute after the Shinomiya Family obliterated them left and right just to pretend that was the plan all along.

Oh, and I wonder why the Principal really goes out of his way specially for Kaguya.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Oh, and I wonder why the Principal really goes out of his way specially for Kaguya.

Wasn't there a chapter where it was revealed he used to be in love with Kaguya's mother? He's trying to honor her memory.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

The chapter is out.

I get what Aka wants to say, but the odds are seriously against Miyuki. The best way to go about this is to settle the goal as soon as possible. Do they want to obliterate the Shinomiya Family, or do they want to set Kaguya free/make the family disown her? The former needs really damn good writing when it comes to kids saving the heroine from the corrupt world of adults, and I'm pessimistic Aka has it in him. I fear the anticlimactic conclusion with a copout regarding Kaguya's father. The latter is way easier, has a lot of room. But please, don't go with it last minute after the Shinomiya Family obliterated them left and right just to pretend that was the plan all along.

Oh, and I wonder why the Principal really goes out of his way specially for Kaguya.

There's been several hints throughout the course of the series that the Mikados are preparing to go to war with the Shinomiyas, and the principal hinted at that again this chapter.

I think there's a good chance that the Shinomiya Zaibatsu could fall apart even without Miyuki participating.

But if that happens and say, the Shinomiyas go into hiding or something, someone needs to stop Kaguya from being forced to go with them.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

The chapter is out.

I get what Aka wants to say, but the odds are seriously against Miyuki. The best way to go about this is to settle the goal as soon as possible. Do they want to obliterate the Shinomiya Family, or do they want to set Kaguya free/make the family disown her? The former needs really damn good writing when it comes to kids saving the heroine from the corrupt world of adults, and I'm pessimistic Aka has it in him. I fear the anticlimactic conclusion with a copout regarding Kaguya's father. The latter is way easier, has a lot of room. But please, don't go with it last minute after the Shinomiya Family obliterated them left and right just to pretend that was the plan all along.

Oh, and I wonder why the Principal really goes out of his way specially for Kaguya.

I'm in full agreement there. Bringing down a company is way too much for high school students. Let alone one that has as much power as the Shinomiya group has. It'd take some really hard work for Aka to uphold my suspension of disbelief with something like that. I prefer either 1: freeing Kaguya, or 2: taking down Oko personally. One or two of the other brothers seem like they might be a bit more reasonable; at the least they might be willing to grant Kaguya her freedom in exchange for help taking him down. And exposing or otherwise eliminating one man, however influential, seems far more within the capabilities of these characters. Hayasaka could definitely provide a big help here: she's worked for him for years, so she has a better chance than many to know where to look for buried skeletons.

[Lex79]

What I'm expecting is that President will take down Kaguya's brothers through various means and put her in charge of a reformed Shinomiya family. Thuis will happen, as the principal mentioned, with the help of everyone, and it will be interesting to see what role the other characters will play.
I might be totally wrong, of course. We'll see how the story develops.