(CR) Saint Seiya Omega

[Ozuma]

@Hamazura

Galaxian was also able to translate the scene between Pallas and Titan in the final part of episode 85. (as seen on his tumblr). I assume you're capable of something just as similar?

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I know that. That’s why I said “....but isn't that a "number 1" rule in any shounen to show how strong a character is?”.

How else do you portray that these guys are strong beside defeating lower-level opponents? This is a very common thing in every fighting story (be it mangas, comics, anime, novels, or movies). Is it pandering to fans? yes it could be. But more than anything else, it serves a purpose to portray how strong these guys are before making them face even (much) stronger opponents.

The Gold Saints were already established the be strong, but LC still started almost every arc with a Gold Saint defeating a someone weaker before moving on to someone of his level.

Also, Unity is the Sea Dragon mariner at the time. So I wouldn't say he's below Degel, at least in raw power.

Unity was borrowing power from the Sea Dragon Scale, he said so himself, and the fight with Degel would have lasted only one chapter had it not been for Poseidon's statue.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

The Gold Saints were already established the be strong, but LC still started almost every arc with a Gold Saint defeating a someone weaker before moving on to someone of his level.

Unless, LC is not designed to be watched by longtime Saint Seiya fans only. Those newcomers will wonder "okay, so they said these guys are strong. But how strong they really are?". That's why the story need lower-level opponents for them to defeat. Also, the practice is very common that there is a term for it. It's called "setting the bar". It's a common practice in almost every fighting story not only for protagonists but also the antagonists. Have you seen movies like Kickboxer, The Raid, Ip-Man, Fearless, or the recent Man of Taichi?

Originally Posted by Galaxian

Unity was borrowing power from the Sea Dragon Scale, he said so himself, and the fight with Degel would have lasted only one chapter had it not been for Poseidon's statue.

I assumed when you said Degel vs Unity, you refer to "Sea Dragon Unity" as a whole, because we all know Unity himself isn't up to snuff compared to Degel. How can he fight him at all without the scale? And the story is clearly not focusing on Degel vs Unity fight. It focuses on pseudo-Poseidon instead.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Unless, LC is not designed to be watched by longtime Saint Seiya fans only. Those newcomers will wonder "okay, so they said these guys are strong. But how strong they really are?". That's why the story need lower-level opponents for them to defeat. Also, practice is very common that there is a term for it. It's called "setting the bar". It's a common practice in almost every fighting story not only for protagonists but also the antagonists. Have you seen Van Damn movies like Kickboxer, The Raid, Ip-Man, Fearless, or the recent Man of Taichi?

1st, LC, while approachable by newcomers, is even more aimed at old fans than Omega's season 2.

2nd. They didn't have to rinse and repeat the same process with almost every Gold Saints, the fact that they are the same rank already implies that they have similar power levels, so they only have the establish dominance with two or three and it will be applied to the others.

I assumed when you said Degel vs Unity, you refer to "Sea Dragon Unity" as a whole, because we all know Unity himself isn't up to snuff compared to Degel. How can he fight him at all without the scale? And the story is clearly not focusing on Degel vs Unity fight. It focuses on pseudo-Poseidon instead.

Yet the manga felt that it needed to show Degel pwning Unity, why? Because of pandering sake

Now I love Lost Canvas, otherwise I wouldn't have spent the hours I did helping get a English scans out, but it had its flaws (it's last couple of chapters are just as bad as the worse episode of Omega) and I believe that one of the reason why people now held it in such high regards is because of all the pandering, especially with the Gold Saints.

[Goty]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

1st, LC, while approachable by newcomers, is even more aimed at old fans than Omega's season 2.

2nd. They didn't have to rinse and repeat the same process with almost every Gold Saints, the fact that they are the same rank already implies that they have similar power levels, so they only have the establish dominance with two or three and it will be applied to the others.

Yet the manga felt that it needed to show Degel pwning Unity, why? Because of pandering sake

Now I love Lost Canvas, otherwise I wouldn't have spent the hours I did helping get a English scans out, but it had its flaws (it's last couple of chapters are just as bad as the worse episode of Omega) and I believe that one of the reason why people now held it in such high regards is because of all the pandering, especially with the Gold Saints.

Excellent post.
One thing that always bothered me in LC, besides all the many flaws, was how formulaic it was. Sure, SS is formulaic enough when it comes to its arc structure already, but LC made it even more noticeable with the same pattern being repeated over and over for every Gold Saint.

There was a clear "i made Gold Saint A do this, now it's time for Gold Saint B to do the same, so fans of that constellation will be happy" going on and hindering the narrative.
It was funny to see Teshirogi struggling with Dokho and Shion because she couldn't kill them off in a blaze of glory.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Goty

It was funny to see Teshirogi struggling with Dokho and Shion because she couldn't kill them off in a blaze of glory.

She tried, she tried.

Despite the flaws and the abysmal way it ended, the good in Lost Canvas far awaits the bad (I will defend LC!Tenma to the end of my days) and I can say the same thing about Omega.

In fact, not only has Omega been on average as enjoyable as Lost Canvas, but it has been even more beneficial to the franchise. While LC did manage to breath some life back into the franchise during its run, it can't compare to the revival it has had because of Omega.

[Ozuma]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

In fact, not only has Omega been on average as enjoyable as Lost Canvas, but it has been even more beneficial to the franchise. While LC did manage to breath some life back into the franchise during its run, it can't compare to the revival it has had because of Omega.

Exactly. Too much win in this post and bolded statement. By far the best post I've seen from Galaxian in this thread and most amazing one that explains why Omega's fame and returning SS franchise to the limelight has made the series invaluable to Kuramada.

[hamazura]

what did shion do anyway? he seems very underwhelming goldies in whole of lost canvas series

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

1st, LC, while approachable by newcomers, is even more aimed at old fans than Omega's season 2.

2nd. They didn't have to rinse and repeat the same process with almost every Gold Saints, the fact that they are the same rank already implies that they have similar power levels, so they only have the establish dominance with two or three and it will be applied to the others.

1st, Keyword: more. "more" is not absolute. So while LC is more aimed for the old fans, they're still considering the newcomers. Also, Omega is mainly intended for the new generation of young audiences. It's the show that revived the franchise for today's audience anyway.

2nd, This is where you and I have different view. Even though LC is a prequel or spin-off of an established story, it’s still has the obligation of introducing each notable character and their unique traits and powers like any other stand-alone fighting-shounen stories out there, even more so since all the Gold Saints (except two) here are different individuals from the ones we had in the original series. This kind of “individual power display/intro” is very common (if not always present) in every fighting-shounen genre for notable group of characters. For example: see how each member of Genei Ryodan dispatching the mob grunts with each of their unique abilities before facing the much-stronger Kurapika in Hunter x Hunter; see how each member of Akatsuki gets power-intro by dispatching grunts, capturing jinchuurikis, and facing lower-level opponents before going all out and got defeated one by one in Naruto; and many more examples from other well-known shounens like (Fairy Tail, One Piece, Bleach, Black Cat, Samurai Deeper Kyo, etc). LC just took the same method with the Gold Saints only to have some of them introduced and perish exclusively during their own mini-arcs. Each mini-arc is relatively different from another and each has a goal that actually adds to the bigger picture. This is pretty much similar with each Gold Saints fight in the 12-Houses Arc in the original series. The difference being: the Gold Saints are the protagonists instead of the antagonist, and instead of one fight per-Zodiac House, we have multiple fights per-mini arc which true to the scale of the story (This is not about “Bronze Saints going through 12-Houses to save Athena” anymore, but an all-out war with Hades and his minions).

Originally Posted by Galaxian

Yet the manga felt that it needed to show Degel pwning Unity, why?

Why not? That dude's crazy for reviving Poseidon. Beating him up serve the story.

Originally Posted by Galaxian

Now I love Lost Canvas, otherwise I wouldn't have spent the hours I did helping get a English scans out, but it had its flaws (it's last couple of chapters are just as bad as the worse episode of Omega) and I believe that one of the reason why people now held it in such high regards is because of all the pandering, especially with the Gold Saints.

I agree that LC has flaws (I've never said otherwise). And I too don't like some aspects in the last chapters. I think it's a stepdown from earlier chapters with some questionable turns of events.

Like I previously said, the pandering element is there, but I don’t agree if it’s the main cause of creating all the Gold Saints mini-arcs & fights. I mean, if a story is focusing on a certain character for a period of time and looking more into his/her personality, effort, achievements, etc, does that automatically count as pandering? Some Genei Ryodan & Akatsuki members (among others) got the same treatment, but I never heard anyone said it was pandering.

[Mad Pierrot]

Just watched 87. The fights and animation were good. Nothing to do with 85. Also, Fudou is really entertaining with his sudden change of personality

[Ozuma]

@amaterasu4

Word the fuck up buddy ^^

@Obelisk Ze Tormentor

Good lord, are you really using Naruto as a "good" example of baddies showcasing their strength?

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Ozuma

@amaterasu4

Word the fuck up buddy ^^

@Obelisk Ze Tormentor

Good lord, are you really using Naruto as a "good" example of baddies showcasing their strength?

Watch your mouth and remember how to end sentences before replying, buddy.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ozuma

@Obelisk Ze Tormentor

Good lord, are you really using Naruto as a "good" example of baddies showcasing their strength?

No, I merely saying that I’ve never seen all this “pandering” hoopla (at least not to this extent) directed to any other group of strong people (protagonist or antagonist) in any other shounen titles even though they get more or less the same treatment. Naruto is just one example of many other shounen titles just like I clearly said in my previous post. I think I remember some people said Bleach is pandering on Kuchiki Byakuya, Kurotsuchi, or Hitsugaya, but those are more individual-character pandering than the whole Shinigami Captains-pandering.

[Ozuma]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Watch your mouth and remember how to end sentences before replying, buddy.

I can't use the "F" word?

@Obelisk

Bleach coasts on shock value endings most of the time. I can't say much about the captains but I will say that Kubo's writing on Aizen is fairly poor and nonsensical. This is agreed with by a large majority of people on two different forums I go to.

The bottom line is Naruto is inconsistent and uses "nerfing" on several different occasions. This is something its weekly SJ co-stars, "Bleach" and "One Piece" don't do.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ozuma

@Obelisk

Bleach coasts on shock value endings most of the time. I can't say much about the captains but I will say that Kubo's writing on Aizen is fairly poor and nonsensical. This is agreed with by a large majority of people on two different forums I go to.

The bottom line is Naruto is inconsistent and uses "nerfing" on several different occasions. This is something its weekly SJ co-stars, "Bleach" and "One Piece" don't do.

I was talking about "pandering" on a group of strong characters. What's your above post has got to do with pandering?

[Ozuma]

@Obelisk

Read. I made it clear that you should stick to using Bleach and One Piece than Naruto since they're better at power level consistency.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ozuma

@Obelisk

Read. I made it clear that you should stick to using Bleach and One Piece than Naruto since they're better at power level consistency.

And again, what's the relation between power-consistency level and "pandering"?

[Ozuma]

@Obelisk
I could care less about that point of "pandering" I'm saying don't reference Naruto because of "power level inconsistency".

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ozuma

@Obelisk
I could care less about that point of "pandering" I'm saying don't reference Naruto because of "power level inconsistency".

Ah, so you’re replying to my posts without even bother (or care) to think about my points, and speaking about other things instead. Yeaa...whatever you say.

[Ozuma]

@Obelisk Ze Tormentor

First off, most times your points don't have a strong foundation to support themselves (Galaxian just schooled the hell out of you on LC). Secondly, lol @ listing Hitsugaya as one of the captains who gets "pandering". I hope you thought that post out thoroughly dude because he is FAR from being one of the strong captains.

He couldn't even finish off an Espada (Aizen got sick of shit and cut down Harribel in the Fake Karakura town arc).

In the Vandenreich arc rather than a savage beat-down or meeting an iconic villain on the battlefield like Byakuya he is side-lined for irrelevance and just slapped down. I could go into more detail but oi I don't feel like it. To put it short: you listed one of the wrong characters being pandered to.

EDIT:

Okay, I'm sorry but what? So I'm only supposed to respond to your points when I address you and mine in my post above are to be brushed off? That's rather rude don't you think?