noitaminA anime block discussion

[Katapan]

noitaminA ratings (Fractale & Hourou Musuko) up to this week:

Ep. 1: 1.9%
Ep. 2: 1.8%
Ep. 3: 1.6%

... damn.

[RRW]

why noitaminA decline seem to be interesting topic?

dont take this wrong, i like noitaminA anime

[TJR]

Originally Posted by rrw

why noitaminA decline seem to be interesting topic?

dont take this wrong, i like noitaminA anime

noitaminA is one of the few bright spots when it comes to broadening the appeal of anime, which is essential for the industry's long term survival.

The slot's inability to retain its former popularity has people worried that it may be the beginning of the end. We already know that most noitaminA series don't sell on DVD/BD, so the failure to generate high ratings (which haven't always been enough to please Fuji TV management either) spells doom.

This wouldn't just be a blow to noitaminA producers but rather the industry as a whole. Subsisting purely on niche content (children's anime has been in trouble for a while too because of low birth rates) isn't going to work forever given the gradual decline in the number of hardcore fans over time.

[Guardian Enzo]

In my view we're looking at three seasons in a row where the best new series (Hourou Musuko, Kuragehime, House of Five Leaves) was a Noitamina show. Even more I'd say the best two shows of those seasons were both Noitamina (adding Shiki and Fractale) with the only exception being Tatami Galaxi - which is a show many people adored. Losing the Noitamina block would be a crippling blow to high-quality, challenging anime.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Katapan

noitaminA ratings (Fractale & Hourou Musuko) up to this week:

Ep. 1: 1.9%
Ep. 2: 1.8%
Ep. 3: 1.6%

... damn.

We don't have split ratings this season? Usually one show tanks and one does well.

Originally Posted by TJR

so the failure to generate high ratings (which haven't always been enough to please Fuji TV management either) spells doom.

Which they supposedly stopped caring about now.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In my view we're looking at three seasons in a row where the best new series (Hourou Musuko, Kuragehime, House of Five Leaves) was a Noitamina show. Even more I'd say the best two shows of those seasons were both Noitamina (adding Shiki and Fractale) with the only exception being Tatami Galaxi - which is a show many people adored. Losing the Noitamina block would be a crippling blow to high-quality, challenging anime.

You mean you didn't like Tatami Galaxy?

It pains me to see Noitamina's ratings decline considering the anime airing on Noitamina are always among the best of the season for me as well. Even if they're not always the best (for example, I think the best anime of this season is Level E), they rarely fail to separate themselves from the crowd. That's the reason I've been watching Noitamina anime religiously these past two years. Quality may vary, but at least they're not anime I feel like I've already watched a dozen times.

Anyways... hope Yamakan's resignation letter is ready.

[SeijiSensei]

I admit that I haven't yet watched past the initial episode of either Noitamina show this season. One reason is that, to me, these two shows, regardless of their quality, don't seem as different from other anime shows as did past Noitamina shows. The early shows like Hataraki Man targeted an audience of adults, particularly female adults, with uncommon content. Who had seen a show about a single career woman or aspiring professional musicians? Now there seems to be more emphasis on shows for an aging otaku audience like Kuragehime or Fractale. The last show that seemed to me as carrying forward the original programming emphasis of Noitamina was Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. Both the current shows have a cast of children which, to me, limits their distinctiveness.

And why is cross-dressing such a persistent theme in Noitamina? (It goes back as least as far as Moyashimon in my memory.) Does that subject really have a lot of audience appeal in Japan?

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

You mean you didn't like Tatami Galaxy?

Anyways... hope Yamakan's resignation letter is ready.

No, I would put Tatami Galaxy in the "pretty good" category - it just seemed a bit forced and self-reverential to me. My point was that it was the only show of the last three NoitaminA seasons that I don't consider one of the two best airing at the time - and even there, many other people certainly would have.

Let's hold off on Yamakan until we see the DVD figures. I don't have much hope but you never know.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Anyways... hope Yamakan's resignation letter is ready.

Why? Without the split ratings, we have no idea why it's moving the way it is. Fractale was on top the first week and currently has the 3rd most 2ch threads for the season while Wandering Son is tied for 7th with less than 1/2 the traffic. Fractale could be holding steady and Wandering Son could be going down.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I admit that I haven't yet watched past the initial episode of either Noitamina show this season. One reason is that, to me, these two shows, regardless of their quality, don't seem as different from other anime shows as did past Noitamina shows. The early shows like Hataraki Man targeted an audience of adults, particularly female adults, with uncommon content. Who had seen a show about a single career woman or aspiring professional musicians? Now there seems to be more emphasis on shows for an aging otaku audience like Kuragehime or Fractale. The last show that seemed to me as carrying forward the original programming emphasis of Noitamina was Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. Both the current shows have a cast of children which, to me, limits their distinctiveness.

And why is cross-dressing such a persistent theme in Noitamina? (It goes back as least as far as Moyashimon in my memory.) Does that subject really have a lot of audience appeal in Japan?

SeijiSensei, I'm interested to see you opine that shows with a cast of children are limited in their distinctiveness. I do grant you your point that shows about children are nothing rare in anime, and perhaps Noitamina is going a little more conventional in premise. I don't think that implies are compromises in quality - the list of emotionally complex, challenging anime about children is a long one - Dennou Coil, Ghost Hound, Noein, Now and Then, Here and There and yes, Evangelion. Not as distinctive perhaps, but no less superb for it. I guess in the end, as long as Noitamina is committed to producing excellent series I don't care as much about whether they're distinctive.

Looking strictly at your criteria, I would argue that House of Five Leaves lives up to the original programming emphasis you mention. As for the whole cross-dressing thing, well - we all know traps are the rage in anime these days so maybe shows like Kuragehime and Hourou Musuko are Noitamina's highbrow, pretentious (that word seems to be in vogue around here lately) way of cashing in on that.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

No, I would put Tatami Galaxy in the "pretty good" category - it just seemed a bit forced and self-reverential to me. My point was that it was the only show of the last three NoitaminA seasons that I don't consider one of the two best airing at the time - and even there, many other people certainly would have.

Heh. In my view, you're just repeating a bias against a certain type of show, which was also apparent in your dislike of Bakemonogatari and Eden of the East, the former of which I enjoyed tremendously for what I considered to be subversive wit.

And, in further signs of how tastes differ:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

SeijiSensei, I'm interested to see you opine that shows with a cast of children are limited in their distinctiveness. I do grant you your point that shows about children are nothing rare in anime, and perhaps Noitamina is going a little more conventional in premise. I don't think that implies are compromises in quality - the list of emotionally complex, challenging anime about children is a long one - Dennou Coil, Ghost Hound, Noein, Now and Then, Here and There and yes, Evangelion.

As an ageing fan myself, I echo SeijiSensei's sentiment, in that anime in recent months have dwelt mainly on its core market of Japanese youth at the expense of a wider, more universal audience. That in itself doesn't necessarily detract from the shows' quality, but it does however mean that, for the most part, such anime are far less likely to pull in older viewers.

Case in point: Hourou Musuko fails to grab me, and I'm still at a loss to adequately explain why that is so. It most certainly does not lack in terms of aesthetic quality, and the subject matter is something I am interested about. But the spark, for me, is simply not there. If I had to give a reason, I would say that I just can't relate with the characters, especially since all of them are just first-year junior-high kids. As I've already mentioned in the anime's thread, at my age, I would far more likely connect with adult perspectives of the issues they face. So, try as I might, I just can't help that the anime is leaving me out in the cold.

The kids in Hourou Musuko have my sympathy but, to be brutally honest, I don't care about them, because they don't speak directly to me about the issues I perceive in my socio-cultural context.

As for the other half of this season's noitaminA slot, after my initial enthusiasm, I'm beginning to wonder how Fractale will turn out. I'm not sure to what extent my sentiment has been affected by the bad press it recently received, but there's no doubt that it has influenced my views, making the anime seem more pretentious than it at first appears.

But on the basis of pure entertainment, I would agree: Level E is the best show this season. I guess I'm beginning to like dumb stuff a lot more as my grey cells start to decay.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Heh. In my view, you're just repeating a bias against a certain type of show, which was also apparent in your dislike of Bakemonogatari and Eden of the East, the former of which I enjoyed tremendously for what I considered to be subversive wit.

Well, bias is a strong word. I think I have a bias against shows that are self-important and emotionally false! I certainly don't dislike EotE or Tatami Galaxy, because they bring enough to the table to compensate for their shortcomings. Bakemonogatari, on the other hand...

I'm no kid myself, but I don't have any trouble relating to kids in Hourou Musuko despite having effectively nothing in common with any character in the show. On the one hand, for me a great show is a great show and I don't really care about the genre - I think they need to be judged on their own merits. On the other, you both raise a valid point that something is lost when we don't see series aimed at a diverse demographic. It probably isn't fair to hold Noitamina personally responsible for making shows aimed at non-traditional audiences - it should be enough that they're making good series at all (which is of course a matter of personal taste). But the reality is that if they don't do it, who else is going to take a chance?

And that's what this really gets down to, taking a chance. As the industry contracts and the economy struggles, the inevitable happens - the number of series produced decreases. They tend to be shorter series. And anything that doesn't have a marketable hook is a lot less likely to get a green light. And Notimaina isn't immune from that, unfortunately. I'd rather see a great Noitamina series that breaks new ground, but I'll settle for a great series of any kind because there aren't all that many of them out there.

I find it interesting that Showa Monogatari was a show specifically marketed as aimed at adults - but the main character is a 12 year-old. And as far as I can tell it hasn't gotten much attention on either side of the pond in it's preview mode, despite good reviews. I'm not sure what the answer is - but this isn't a situation I expect to change soon.

[Pocari_Sweat]

It's a shame that the noitaminA timeslot is declining in popularity. As people said beforeme, noitaminA animes are some of the best out there. Although it may not necessarily be the best of a particular season, they are pretty consistent - in fact, I personally think they are the MOST consistent.

I think part of the reason for the decline of noitaminA anime is that they seem to be generally aimed at more mature audiences and usually outside the typical otaku-crowd. This is in addition to the added fact that late-night anime are typically watched by otakus and general mainstream audiences don't watch anime outside of theatrical films made by famous directors (e.g. Miyazaki) or the "big shonens" due to the negative stigma attached to anime.

A real shame, but what can you do.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed is that noitaminA seems to almost have monopoly when it comes to adapting material based from the "josei" demography, which is the rarest demography when it comes to anime/manga. Conversely, adult women generally are the primary audience when it comes to TV dramas, but these people don't generally watch anime in the first place, which doesn't help at all.

[MeoTwister5]

The first thing I look at every season is what's gonna be airing in NoitaminA, then everything else. Not to say that every other show pales in comparison, but there are times that regardless of quality it's the shows on said time slot I feel that are really worth writing home about for better or for worse.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

The first thing I look at every season is what's gonna be airing in NoitaminA, then everything else.

Funny enough, I tend to do this as well. I mainly look at production staff/studio/timeslot in determining priorities on what animes to check out first in a particular season and it happens noitaminA based ones are on top of my list.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by acejem

I think part of the reason for the decline of noitaminA anime is that they seem to be generally aimed at more mature audiences and usually outside the typical otaku-crowd. This is in addition to the added fact that late-night anime are typcially watched by otakus and general mainstream audiences don't watch anime outside of theatrical films made by famous directors (e.g. Miyazaki) or the "big shonens" due to the negative stigma attached to anime.

A real shame, but what can you do.

I'm wondering whether the decline in Noitamina's ratings are similar to those experienced by non-anime TV blocks in recent years. Anime does not exist in isolation - I've heard at least one blogger speculate that declining ratings for many anime may be due to increased competition from online media.

And yes, I consider the declining ratings a shame too. I seldom consider Noitamina shows my favourite of a given season, but they often end up among my top few.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm wondering whether the decline in Noitamina's ratings are similar to those experienced by non-anime TV blocks in recent years. Anime does not exist in isolation - I've heard at least one blogger speculate that declining ratings for many anime may be due to increased competition from online media.

That's an interesting hypothesis and one that may be very true. Perhaps noitaminA's goal isn't to try and make a profit in their shows alone, but to promote the original source material or other adaptations. For example, Nodame Cantabile anime did not make much DVD sales at all and is not a franchise where you can make much from merchandise either, yet there was 3 seasons of it. It most most likely made to promote the original manga and possibly live-action TV drama, both of which were critically acclaimed.

I'm sensing the same sort of marketing strategy for the upcoming Bunny Drop series which is scheduled to be aired in Summer this year. I can already predict that it's going to do pretty well rating wise, but on the DVD sales side of this, it's gonna do fairly poorly, with the primary goal of promoting the original manga. I know I've already been suckered by this strategy because I bought the first two volumes of the manga as soon as I read the synopsis (it is exactly the kind of story I enjoy )and heard that noitaminA is adapting it. I'm currently loving this manga series.

EDIT: Bunny Drop is scheduled to have a live-action TV drama adaptation in June this year, just prior to the anime series. This marketing strategy seems to be similar to the route that Nodame Cantabile took, except this time they plan to air both the TV drama (most likely aimed at adult females/housewives) and the anime (aimed at a particular portion of the latenight anime community) at the same time.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In my view we're looking at three seasons in a row where the best new series (Hourou Musuko, Kuragehime, House of Five Leaves) was a Noitamina show.

That's not three seasons in a row. House of Five Leaves aired back in Spring 2010, while Kuragehime aired in Autumn 2010.

[antigone]

the ratings have been dipping because the shows have been terrible lately.

Production IG's Higashi no Eden had decent visuals, but the writing has been all over the place

Tatami Galaxy is pretentious drivel, while House of 5 leaves was not able to portray the manga successfully.

The manga of Shiki is way better than the anime adaptation.

Hourou Musuko's writing is mediocre so far, and Fractale is one of Yamakan's greater disappointments.

The last good noitaminA show was the Genji adaptation, and even that was above-average at best.

they should just scrap this block already

[cyth]

Please have some charts, courtesy of 2ch. The first one is a bit outdated.

DVD sales (*TWTL = Too Weak To List)

11,039 　Honey & Clover
*TWTL　　Paradise Kiss
TWTL　　 ～ayakashi～ (Excluding the Bakeneko arc)
*2,140 　～ayakashi～(Bakeneko arc)
*6,378 　Jyu Oh Sei
*6,110 　Honey & Clover II
TWTL　　 Hatarakiman
*8,788 　Nodame Cantabile
12,515 　Mononoke
*8,492 　Moyasimon
*6,892　 Hakaba Kitaro
10,047　 Library Wars
TWTL　　 Antique Bakery
*3,873　 Nodame Cantabile Paris Chapter
**,922　 Genji Monogatari Sennenki
*7,947　 Eden of the East
**,509　 Tokyo Magnitude 8.0
*2,034　 Kuuchuu Buranko

Noitamina audience ratings

Average　Highest　Lowest
＝＝　　＝＝　　＝＝
4.80　　5.8　　2.8　　 Hakaba Kitaro
4.63　　6.6　　3.7　　 Nodame Cantabile Pari-hen
4.56　　5.3　　3.8　　 Moyasimon
4.44　　5.5　　3.1　　 Nodame Cantabile
4.01　　5.1　　3.1　　 Hatarakiman
＝＝　　＝＝　　＝＝
3.96　　5.0　　3.0　　 Eden of the East
3.56　　5.8　　2.0　　 Tokyo Magnitude 8.0
3.51　　5.0　　2.3　　 ～ayakashi～
3.50　　4.9　　2.7　　 Jyu Oh Sei
3.48　　4.8　　1.6　　 Mononoke
3.48　　4.6　　2.8　　 Library Wars
3.45　　4.5　　2.6　 　Antique Bakery
3.33　　4.2　　2.5　 　Genji Monogatari Sennenki
3.25　　4.2　　1.9　　 Honey & Clover II
3.25　　4.9　　2.1　　 Nodame Cantabile Finale
3.19　　4.4　　2.5　　 Paradise Kiss
3.05　　4.2　　2.0　　 Honey & Clover
＝＝　　＝＝　　＝＝
2.61　　3.9　　1.5　　 Kuuchuu Buranko
2.56　　3.4　　2.0　　 Moyasimon + Shiki
2.06　　2.9　　1.5　　 Tatami Galaxy + House of Five Leaves

*2.3　　**.*　*2.2　Kuragehime + Shiki
*1.9　　**.*　*1.6　Fractale ＋ Hourou Musuko

Ratings have been especially low these last four seasons because they expanded the time slot to an hour, so the second show usually gets lower numbers because it's aired at a later time and so "devalues" the time slot. By the way, they do record separately, but numbers have been sparse. Fractale captured 2.4% and Hourou Musuko 1.5% on their debut.

I think the reason for the general decline is pretty obvious--the supposed target audience simply doesn't have much affinity for anime with unrealistic elements of any kind. Basically, the decline of these new shows isn't because of their quality or lack of diversity but because some otaku person at Fuji thought it would be a good idea to introduce otaku anime to the general public. This never works well. General audiences just want animated content that doesn't resemble anime at all, akin to sappy TV dramas and those awful manzai comedy shows.