2010-07-27, 19:44 | Link #8402 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Other than your view that English and Mandarin are the same with respect to the Chinese populace, I am in agreement with everything else you said. The forced integration polices in Tibet and Xinjiang are quite disturbing to say the least. |
|
2010-07-27, 22:40 | Link #8403 | ||
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Quote:
FYI, Mandarin is forced onto the Chinese population the same way English is forced onto the Indians: they are both policy-based results initiated by the authorities instead of a natural phenomenon. No, not everyone is a Han Chinese (Tibetans, Uruguayans, etc...) in China. And even for Han Chinese, in the South a majority of them has a mother-tongue different from Mandarin. It is self-illusionary to believe that there is a "Great China" where everyone have been speaking Mandarin for 5000 years. From a linguistic point of view, Mandarin's history as "the official Chinese" is pretty short. Cantonese which was the official language in Sui Dynasty (and likely Tang Dynasty) was forced to take shelter in the South due to the invasion from the North during the era of Southern and Northern Dynasties. The Northern invaders (Mongolians, Turks, etc) found the Chinese language extremely difficult to pronounce, so they mixed their own stuff into the Nanjing and Beijing dialect, as well as simplifying the whole thing by cutting away stuff they didn't like, such as all the stopped syllables. The mixture was further simplified to make a "language for the bureaucrats" in Qing dynasty that even the Manchurian officials would be comfortable with. That is exactly why it is called the "Mandarin." Japanese who came to China to learn their language in the Tang dynasty has preserved most of the stopped syllables in the Japanese language (kanji) in a simplified manner. Of course all of these syllables are kept intact in Cantonese, but none is present in Mandarin. This in itself proves Cantonese's history and traditional accpetability as a Chinese language. Spoiler for Example:
Saying that Mandarin is a generic Chinese language showing the Chinese nationality, that is purely made by the Chinese and for the Chinese, is laughable at best. Some people even take the view that it is a language largely shaped by invaders and autocrats rather than the general populace. Anyway as of now it is simply an artificial "Common Language" (Putonghua) in PRC; nothing more, nothing less. Still, never did I say Mandarin should be replaced by English, and never will I advocate such. It would simply be non-practical and a waste of resources. CCP had good success in educating the non-literate public from over 50 races to be at least able to communicate in a common language (whatever it is). This is already a great achievement in itself. A recap on what I have said: Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-07-27 at 23:45. |
||
2010-07-27, 23:50 | Link #8404 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
However, I've never been able to find any academic material to back the suspicion. The correlation of some Cantonese words with the equivalent words in Japanese seems compelling, but that's all it is: correlation, not confirmation. |
|
2010-07-28, 01:26 | Link #8405 | ||||||||
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Quote:
Anyway here is an excerpt from the book of Li Chen (陳澧), a well acclaimed linguistic expert in the 17th century (Qing Dynasty). The excerpt is in classical Chinese. 廣州音說 (An explanation on Cantonese pronunciation) Quote:
Quote:
Other online sources on the issue: 移民不斷南下古粵語一體化有跡可尋 (The Assimilation of ancient Chinese into Cantonese can be traced to the migration towards the South) 周雲《文匯報》〈文匯首頁‧副刊‧百家廊〉2009年2月1日 http://www.cantoneseculture.com/page...90201_001.aspx 粵語形成於古廣信 (Cantonese is originated in Ancient Guangxin*) [*in Central China] 羅康寧《中國評論學術出版社》(網上開卷 ─— 粵語與珠江文化)2004年7月 http://www.cantoneseculture.com/page...mTo/index.aspx Quote:
The same applies to my claim on the preservation of Cantonese/Ancient Chinese stopped syllables (i.e. syllables with checked tones) in Japanese: again I cannot give you a reliable source at this point, but there are ample academic evidence supporting that. Anyway here is a quote from the Japanese wikipedia article on stopped syllables. 入声 (Checked tones) http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/入声 Quote:
Quote:
入声韻尾消失の過程 (The Process of Disappearance of Checked Tone Syllable Coda) http://uwazura.up.seesaa.net/ando_ko...E4C6FEC0BC.pdf Quote:
Quote:
Further reading: Entering tone in Sino-Xenic (Japanese) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checked_tone#Japanese
__________________
Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-07-28 at 04:20. Reason: Polished the translations a bit. I am not a linguist btw so don't hold me responsible for TL errors... m(_ _)m |
||||||||
2010-07-28, 13:52 | Link #8406 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Remember that recent tide of classified documents that wikileaks released awhile ago? Well apparently the names of hundreds of informants for the US in Afghanistan were revealed.
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-28, 14:34 | Link #8407 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-28, 17:05 | Link #8413 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
My opinion at the moment (subject to change) is that someone wanted to recreate a worthy leak in history -- the Pentagon Papers, which basically showed how badly we were screwing up the Vietnam war and getting lots of people killed for someone's fun and profit.
You can already hear the floating administrative heads on both sides of the aisle babbling about how all that was "in the past" and "mistakes were made" and "we're doing better now". We'll see after everyone parses it out whether anything will actually happen if actual crimes are uncovered. The US seems to have become completely adept at not blaming anyone for anything.
__________________
|
2010-07-28, 18:26 | Link #8415 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
|
Do you realize than those real informer are most likely to be linked to the Taliban ? And even if the leak designated false-informant-real-Taliban their family are likely to get trouble as well .
This time, those Wikileak guy just wanted to make a big coup, without thinking of the consequence or seriousness.
__________________
|
2010-07-28, 22:18 | Link #8416 | ||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Quote:
And the majority of the informants that are listed in the documents are most likely all pretty low level. I doubt the Taliban would be much thrown into confusion over this. Quote:
You certainly don't deserve the protection of Freedom of Speech when it gets people murdered. |
||
2010-07-28, 22:23 | Link #8417 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
|
^I see wikileaks' action as not at all wise, to put it very mildly, but it is consistent with what they do. However your reaction is just a knee-jerk revenge thing.
Quote:
Which, if true, is kind of admirable in a way. |
|
2010-07-28, 23:12 | Link #8418 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
The case for US$320,000 kindergarten teachers
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-29, 00:39 | Link #8419 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-29, 08:08 | Link #8420 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Cause it's not like their actions are going to hurt anyone important. Am I right?
Quote:
Watch a video of somebody getting their head cut off and tell me how fucking admirable it is. |
|
Tags |
current affairs, discussion, international |
|
|