Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Arju1712

When Madoka shoulders the grief of a magical girl, does the magical girl die, when it was still the old system? After she changed the system, what does Kyuubey harvest, a magical girl's grief or curses?

I'm not fully sure what you're asking, but yes, the girls die when Madoka takes their grief. The new universe describes it as the girls simply fading away when they've used up their magic, but in truth it's likely Madoka stepping in and taking their grief right before they would otherwise become a Witch.

As for what Kyubey harvests, I can only assume grief and curses are meant to be more or less the same thing (and that maybe curses was a term used to differentiate from Grief Seeds). It makes no sense for eliminating Witches to somehow eliminate the energy Kyubey is after.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i miss this show so much. i can't get over it.. DX

[mols]

Originally Posted by RDF2050

This is hard to tell because the situation was kinda hard but I completely agree with what you just said. Miscommunication cause a lot misunderstanding, despair and hatred between the girls. The particular example you show is perfect. Unless I am not mistaking, Madoka saw Homaru was busy trying to get herself out of a trap Mami put to her. Madoka should at least inform or tell Saya why she can't rescue her. However, the situation wasn't helping at all. They were scared of what they were seeing. By Mami dying in front of their eyes, makes them so scared to even Madoka thing about something else.



I believe that's the main reason your opinion is that way. As older we get, we use the following 4 factors to base our comments or opinions about something.



These factors can affect the point of view of something during our life. This is why it influence our final thoughts of anything. Because you can't be an anime character, you base your point of view base on the four factors above. Anime characters can be relate to you somehow but never be the exact thing because they are no real. They are able to show human characteristics, behaviors or emotions but still has a imaginary element that puts difference between reality and imagination.

I agree with you.
But, we don't need to analyze which factors have an influence in our communications to realize when something is strange.

Sometimes you see a show, and you realize some characters just made a silly mistake, and a misunderstanding follows. You tell yourself that if only they had said this or that the misunderstanding wouldn't have occurred. But you also realize that those situation do arise, and that, well, everybody makes mistakes. (e.g. you speak to a friend thinking he/she already knows something and then you leave in a hurry and you didn't realize he/she had no idea what you were talking about).

On the other hand you have situations, in shows only, like the example I mentioned, where you can clearly see that the writer wanted to force a misunderstanding or force a lack of communication.

The writer of those parts is obviously a live human that knows this. Every normal human, and by normal I mean a statistical normal, will notice these things at once. We are very sensitive to the situation of others, we know when someone is happy, sad, etc. Also, we know what behavioral patterns to expect in a given situation. We evolved that way, it is a communication tool. It allows us to be able to imitate people, to learn by watching... And it also allows us to have the feeling "I wouldn't have done that/said that". And of course, it allows us to watch sad shows and feel sad.

So, when I see this kind of thing I just feel that something is not quite right.

Going back to my example, Madoka would have had the motivation to insist that Homura was not to blame. In fact, she should be even "desperate"to make her best friend understand that. I am talking of basic human behavior here...

I also was a high school student before, and even though I have never been in such a situation were people die killed by witches,etc. I have been in relatively serious situations where I have insisted on some points to avoid misunderstanding, regardless of the mood or receptiveness of the person I am talking with.

Ok, now, I have to say that I do study animal behavior, and thus I am interested in behavior in general.

Finally, I just want to add that misunderstandings happen every time and often. They are easy to make. But if it is done badly in a show, in an "unnatural" way, we can see it.

[Kirroha]

One thing I need clarifying though - all puella magi will eventually disappear, right? Since in the old system, all puella magi will eventually become witches? So puella magi are cursed anyway, even in the new system.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

One thing I need clarifying though - all puella magi will eventually disappear, right? Since in the old system, all puella magi will eventually become witches? So puella magi are cursed anyway, even in the new system.

As far as I know, yes. They still disappear.
But, since the incubators have no interest in them becoming witches, you can assume that they can live longer...and/or receive more help.

[Snork]

This is all assuming that Oriko is indeed a sequel. While that is appearing to be a likely case, unless I'm mistaken, we've yet to get an official confirmation that that is the case.

Seeing as the whole franchise is known to bathe in trolling, it's good to be careful.

I go with the idea others have suggested that the final timeline is the way things would have been had witches never existed, per Madoka's wish. Thus Madoka doesn't exist, Mami is alive since Charlotte never eats her, Sayaka doesn't turn into Octavia, and so Kyoko is also alive since she never dies to keep Sayaka company. It all fits very cleanly.

Witches are more or less replaced by demons, so in Mami's case I'd say she'd have a chance of dying even now. But there are other factors at play: the most conspicuous is the absense of Madoka whose proposal of partnership is considered by many to have driven Mami excited and a little too reckless before the fight. Also, the fight itself depends on many factors. We can't even claim it happened in other timelines except TL5: without Madoka and Sayaka, Mami might have easily missed the outbreak of the witch's activity; in T4, Homura might have done the witch in by herself (she later tries to warn Mami that the witch is not that simple). Not to mention that the structure of the team, the circumstances of their meeting were most likely redone. I'm especially curious about Sayaka, who doesn't seem to be involved in all of the previous timelines, and it is strongly assumable that she always contacted Kyuubey through Madoka.
Homura's past is also intriguing. Rewatching the ending tomorrow, I noticed that she abruptly opens her eyes finding herself at the station after the demon fight. If she was really inserted into the timeline that randomly (or not randomly: there's a chance that the general chain of events shifted after all, and by the time Homura would normally wake up in the hospital, she had already been a Puella Magi and acquainted with the others for a while in this timeline).
Also, I've watched the episode with Russian subs (direct J-R translation, not a ripoff of an English hardsub) and unlike GG's rendition, Madoka's words in the audition scene are conspicuously conditional mood (it works likewise in both English and Russian): instead of GG's "And now this future will disappear as well" we have "If I saved you, this future would disappear". Makes a good impression that the scene DOES take place after Sayaka's demise in the final timeline - and Madoka doesn't apologise for erasing the previous ones, but for not having used her wish to bring Sayaka back as a human in timeline 5. Even though it's obvious such a scenario would indeed doom everyone (and I bet Sayaka is aware of this), she can't help feeling a bit guilty. Madoka is Madoka, regardless of her state.

As far as I know the script was written by Urobuchi, so we can at least count on it being worthwhile to read.

And grim as all hell.

For the more than 5 timelines, I have no problem with that. It could have been 10 time loops before she fixed her eyes... why not? remember how many weapons she managed to steal.

I actually wonder why she didn't think about healing her eyes as far back as timeline 3. Using guns is something where good eyesight definitely comes in handy.

I can only remember one particular example: Sayaka saying that homura let mami die, and that only appeared after her death. An Madoka staying quiet...she knew Homura had been trapped by Mami and yet did not explain.

would be definitely worth trying... although Sayaka might respond with "Don't try to protect her!"

Or some lying like:"come on Sayaka, is almost like being alive, just your soul is in a gem, no problem with that cheer up!"

I assume Madoka has a problem with saying what she herself doesn't believe in.

Or what kind of person goes out of the hospital without calling/visiting a friend that visited you almost daily??

The whole internet is scratching their heads at this, trust me. No matter how many haters Sayaka somehow managed to earn, I bet Kamijou is significantly LESS POPULAR with the audience. Maybe he just forgot about everything but resuming his music practice ASAP... which is understandable for him, but nowhere near redeeming.

The new universe describes it as the girls simply fading away when they've used up their magic, but in truth it's likely Madoka stepping in and taking their grief right before they would otherwise become a Witch.

Even without external factors, realising that you've just used up all your powers and your life (hardly verging on 15 years old) is ending here and now... I guess it can cause a significant amount of despair, too.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

Also, I've watched the episode with Russian subs (direct J-R translation, not a ripoff of an English hardsub) and unlike GG's rendition, Madoka's words in the audition scene are conspicuously conditional mood (it works likewise in both English and Russian): instead of GG's "And now this future will disappear as well" we have "If I saved you, this future would disappear". Makes a good impression that the scene DOES take place after Sayaka's demise in the final timeline - and Madoka doesn't apologise for erasing the previous ones, but for not having used her wish to bring Sayaka back as a human in timeline 5. Even though it's obvious such a scenario would indeed doom everyone (and I bet Sayaka is aware of this), she can't help feeling a bit guilty. Madoka is Madoka, regardless of her state.

Then, it means that the Sayaka that met Madoka at the audition was the Sayaka that we saw transforming into a witch... so, we know that madoka will meet her friends one last time, when she'll destroy their witches. But, we have no info if any of them will even remember her.

So maybe they don't eat cake for all eternity.

[Snork]

Then, it means that the Sayaka that met Madoka at the audition was the Sayaka that we saw transforming into a witch...

Wait, what I said in the post you quoted was just the opposite - this being Sayaka of timeline 6 (who used up her powers but didn't turn into a witch, since Madoka came to her).
And if it's the case, we get confirmation for Sayaka regaining the memories of past timelines (or at least the previous one) after she died.

[TAKOYAKI]

Did you know that homuhomu had calculatedthe orbit of bombshell in ep11.

[TAKOYAKI]

Here is NOT QB,but just the image of account of 虚淵 玄(Urobuchi Gen : magica madoka scenario writer)

[Akashin]

As weird as that is, it helps me to know that there was planning behind the otherwise massively improbable sequence of attacks. Setting explosives conveniently where Walpurgisnacht would be (the two towers shown in that pic, for one, and the massive array of timed bombs as well) seemed quite a bit implausible to me, after all.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

Wait, what I said in the post you quoted was just the opposite - this being Sayaka of timeline 6 (who used up her powers but didn't turn into a witch, since Madoka came to her).
And if it's the case, we get confirmation for Sayaka regaining the memories of past timelines (or at least the previous one) after she died.

Hmmm, sorry for the misunderstanding (see, just as I said before, misunderstandings do occur easily lol)
I like your reasoning, so I'll think that is the way things work. Besides, while doing some work I started thinking about unimportant stuff, and one of those things was this show:
If Madoka did not exist, there is no reason for the girls to be together fighting demons... think about it, if Sayaka never had Madoka as a friend, her relationships would have changed, even her wish, maybe. We are not talking about a friend leaving or whatever, but never meeting someone that ultimately was important (best friends...). Kyouko and mami too, why team with Homura? and why team with Sayaka? For me, the fact that they are together is because Madoka was, in some way "there" with them and then disappeared, leaving no trace, except for Homura that remembers. So in a way, the timelines were fused or an "average"timeline was created.

Originally Posted by TAKOYAKI

Did you know that homuhomu had calculatedthe orbit of bombshell in ep11.

Spoiler for image:

Originally Posted by Akashin

As weird as that is, it helps me to know that there was planning behind the otherwise massively improbable sequence of attacks. Setting explosives conveniently where Walpurgisnacht would be (the two towers shown in that pic, for one, and the massive array of timed bombs as well) seemed quite a bit implausible to me, after all.

Which makes me think that there were more than 5 timelines, if she only went back more or less one month before WN, then 5 loops is hardly enough...

I think this was funny, but I don't understand what they say!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eESbGVn8dCY

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mols

Which makes me think that there were more than 5 timelines, if she only went back more or less one month before WN, then 5 loops is hardly enough...

No amount of timelines would give her the level of precognition necessary to perfectly coordinate the fight as well as she did, so the number of loops is irrelevant.

[Arju1712]

Has anyone tried to figure out where the demons come from in the new timeline?

A Magical Girl's Soul Gem darkens when she uses magic or feels despair, so is the Soul the fuel source as well as the medium for casting magic, meaning whenever a girl uses magic, she's sending her soul at the witches? Why does despair darken a Soul Gem?

[mols]

Originally Posted by Akashin

No amount of timelines would give her the level of precognition necessary to perfectly coordinate the fight as well as she did, so the number of loops is irrelevant.

Not quite. The apparition of WN is not random and since it is huge... Is almost like playing against the last boss of a hard game.

She might never know what the next attack will be, but knows where WN will appear, its size and speed. Enough to set traps.

Plus she can stop time, so I can just imagine how long it took to place all. But she has magic, so bah, easily done lol she even had huge weapons, if it wasn't with magic I don't know how she moved them.

so yes, more loops are necessary.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Arju1712

Has anyone tried to figure out where the demons come from in the new timeline?

A Magical Girl's Soul Gem darkens when she uses magic or feels despair, so is the Soul the fuel source as well as the medium for casting magic, meaning whenever a girl uses magic, she's sending her soul at the witches? Why does despair darken a Soul Gem?

I think it is just the system the incubators created. No reason in particular, but it seems getting depressed etc gives a lot of energy, so that's it. They get depressed (etc.) and then transform into a witch so other magical girls can be duped into fighting them and at the same time the incubators get their precious energy.

[Snork]

think about it, if Sayaka never had Madoka as a friend, her relationships would have changed, even her wish, maybe.

not having Madoka around would make her chances of encountering Mami and Kyuubey smaller, but since Kamijou is still around and presumably in the same condition, her wish is probably unchanged.

Mami showed all intentions of teaming up with both Madoka and Sayaka - the girl's too damn tired of being lonely (I bet she'd have easily teamed up with Homura as well, had the latter chosen to cooperate). And pretty much the same can be said about Kyouko, regardless of how much she cares to show it. Homura is a trickier question, since we know nothing of how she spent the sixth iteration (and she really must have spent it differently), but then again, she's hinted to keep the memories - and we're talking the girls who really used to be Homura's friends. She might as well have been the one to gather the team.

Has anyone tried to figure out where the demons come from in the new timeline?

A Magical Girl's Soul Gem darkens when she uses magic or feels despair, so is the Soul the fuel source as well as the medium for casting magic, meaning whenever a girl uses magic, she's sending her soul at the witches? Why does despair darken a Soul Gem?

They come from "distortions of this world", whatever you interpret it as. Maybe they're born from negative emotions (and since witches feed on it, this would explain why there were no demons [left?] in TL5), maybe from the exact wish-related destructions Kyuubey mentioned in ep 11. Anyhow, their modus operandi seems to resemble that of witches, up to setting barriers.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Snork

They come from "distortions of this world", whatever you interpret it as. Maybe they're born from negative emotions (and since witches feed on it, this would explain why there were no demons [left?] in TL5), maybe from the exact wish-related destructions Kyuubey mentioned in ep 11. Anyhow, their modus operandi seems to resemble that of witches, up to setting barriers.

Lets put it this way since there are no witches to feed off the negative emotions of humans the negative emotions give birth to demons who require more grief to feed on which is why magical girls have to fight them like witches...this is mostly just a theory though.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

she's hinted to keep the memories - and we're talking the girls who really used to be Homura's friends. She might as well have been the one to gather the team.

I don't remember seeing all the girls in every loop...
I still think that without Madoka things would have been different enough to make the chances of making that group less likely. Even is the (ungrateful?) violinist had his accident, Sayaka would have had whom as a close friend if not Madoka? what did she do on her free time, who she talked with? if we assume they were friends before she fell in love with kamijou, maybe without madoka Sayaka's relationships would have been so different that she never would have fallen in love with him...maybe she would have talked to Hitomi(?) and things would have been different...

I dunno, a friend's influence is very important we are not talking about a one-day absence.

That is my view anyway, it is completely possible that what you say happened. But I am uncertain that Sayaka was a mahou shoujo in every timeline...

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mols

I don't remember seeing all the girls in every loop...
I still think that without Madoka things would have been different enough to make the chances of making that group less likely. Even is the (ungrateful?) violinist had his accident, Sayaka would have had whom as a close friend if not Madoka? what did she do on her free time, who she talked with? if we assume they were friends before she fell in love with kamijou, maybe without madoka Sayaka's relationships would have been so different that she never would have fallen in love with him...maybe she would have talked to Hitomi(?) and things would have been different...

I dunno, a friend's influence is very important we are not talking about a one-day absence.

That is my view anyway, it is completely possible that what you say happened. But I am uncertain that Sayaka was a mahou shoujo in every timeline...

I actually got the impression that Sayaka had known Kyosuke longer than she had known Madoka; either way it's largely irrelevant, since it's highly unlikely that Madoka's absence could have had any meaningful influence on Sayaka's feelings for him. Yeah a lot of aspects of her life would have changed (ie. only having Hitomi as a close friend, not having a close friend to be with when Hitomi was off doing the various little things she blew them off for, etc.), but I doubt any of that would seriously impact Kyosuke.

Also, I'm not sure what her not necessarily being a Puella Magi in every timeline (which we can't say with absolute certainty, but it does seem possible that you're right) has to do with anything. In the first three timelines Madoka made a wish to save a cat (that may have changed in timelines 2 and 3, but since Homura wasn't actively trying to prevent her contracting I am willing to bet it was the same) when Sayaka wasn't around, and it seems entirely possible that, if Sayaka was indeed not a Puella Magi in all timelines, she may have just never become aware of Witches in the first place. Assuming you're using this as a point to suggest changing feelings for Kyosuke, I'm not convinced that it flies.

Not quite. The apparition of WN is not random and since it is huge... Is almost like playing against the last boss of a hard game.

She might never know what the next attack will be, but knows where WN will appear, its size and speed. Enough to set traps.

Plus she can stop time, so I can just imagine how long it took to place all. But she has magic, so bah, easily done lol she even had huge weapons, if it wasn't with magic I don't know how she moved them.

so yes, more loops are necessary.

To return to this point (missed it earlier; my bad), there is a considerable difference between knowing location, size and speed and being able to predict its exact movements. My point was that the traps she set went a little too well; I wasn't really making an issue out of it since I don't really care, but I was noting it.