Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by ippus

lol @ giant walls of text

Hey, that's what discussion is about.

[willyvereb]

No...Walls of Text is where the discussion reaches the fan-serious level.
A level where casual anime-watchers are forbidden to post
It's like a sancturay for the hardcore fans.
But it has the side effect of slowly going off-topic. Like ther...the discussion had much more to do with the love triangle and the whole series than the actual episode B)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

No...Walls of Text is where the discussion reaches the fan-serious level.
A level where casual anime-watchers are forbidden to post
It's like a sancturay for the hardcore fans.
But it has the side effect of slowly going off-topic. Like ther...the discussion had much more to do with the love triangle and the whole series than the actual episode B)

Well, to be honest, discussions break out all over the place, sometimes even in the image thread. Since redirecting it to a more appropiate thread normally results in it dying off, I prefer to keep it going where it happens.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

*Everybody* is caught up in his or her circumstances. Geeze. ^^ Don't follow the Yasaburo, he will lead you to his Keikaku Dori.

Btw, how do explain Altos "A man cannot fly alone" confession away? I'd really like to know how a Ranka-shipper interprets it.

Well Yasaburo is a very attentive person

As for the that particular line, I think it's just as you say. Alto was going to Sheryl to reassure her but just like I said before, it's possible that those feelings are misplaced. Which leads to my previous point about telling Sheryl what she wanted to hear, only because of her predicament.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Erm, you know that this was set-up for the reveal that Alto used Ranka as his excuse to be a fighter pilot, right? ^^ The correlation of him sitting with Nanase, her big painting of Ranka and him being in thoughts about Yasaburos last attempt to sway him from being a fighter pilot and the rooftop conversation is, like, directly there. I really don't see how that could be interpreted as "romantic thoughts about Ranka".

Yes, and I do agree. The conversation with Klan is one where Alto realizes that he's only been playing his part depending on the situation, just like Yasaburo (this man is great ) has been saying all along. In an earlier episode, Alto told Luca that he would bring Ranka back but once he had his talk with his brother again, Alto knew that there were bigger concerns than just his situation, hence the declaration that he would kill Ranka if necessary. Playing his part was protecting Ranka all the time but since he stated that he was done with that, he'd kill her if it came down to it.

I did say it could have gone either way, but this set-up also has to do with his revelation of not only his excuses but his feelings (romantic or not) towards Ranka.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Well Yasaburo is a very attentive person

As for the that particular line, I think it's just as you say. Alto was going to Sheryl to reassure her but just like I said before, it's possible that those feelings are misplaced. Which leads to my previous point about telling Sheryl what she wanted to hear, only because of her predicament.

Man, your version of Alto is a mayor asshole.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Yes, and I do agree. The conversation with Klan is one where Alto realizes that he's only been playing his part depending on the situation, just like Yasaburo (this man is great ) has been saying all along. In an earlier episode, Alto told Luca that he would bring Ranka back but once he had his talk with his brother again, Alto knew that there were bigger concerns than just his situation, hence the declaration that he would kill Ranka if necessary. Playing his part was protecting Ranka all the time but since he stated that he was done with that, he'd kill her if it came down to it.

I did say it could have gone either way, but this set-up also has to do with his revelation of not only his excuses but his feelings (romantic or not) towards Ranka.

I am sorry, but I completely and utterly reject that characterization of Alto. I think episode 12 conclusively proved that Alto is *not* playing a part, but rather following his own way.

Yasaburo had one motivation in the series: Convince Alto by hook and crook to return to his home and be an actor again. Yasaburos last speech did affect Alto, but I think not in the way you think. It made it clear to him that he had used Ranka as a motivator to justify his joining the military... not that he was just "playing a part".

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Yes, and I do agree. The conversation with Klan is one where Alto realizes that he's only been playing his part depending on the situation, just like Yasaburo (this man is great ) has been saying all along. In an earlier episode, Alto told Luca that he would bring Ranka back but once he had his talk with his brother again, Alto knew that there were bigger concerns than just his situation, hence the declaration that he would kill Ranka if necessary. Playing his part was protecting Ranka all the time but since he stated that he was done with that, he'd kill her if it came down to it.
I did say it could have gone either way, but this set-up also has to do with his revelation of not only his excuses but his feelings (romantic or not) towards Ranka.

Now that's interesting, because I hadn't even seen that scene as him playing a role, rather, the opposite. It was his growth as a character I saw. So early on, he kept being questioned, "why are you really doing this?". He was just using them all as an excuse to get away from his real problems, Alto hadn't carved out quite what he believed in what he should do;he simply did what he was told and didn't really think about why (thus, the role playing analogy). That scene strengthened his resolve and what he was going to do. He wasn't willing to stay ignorant any longer, nor take the easy way out and run away from his problems. He was going to face them head on, and fight for what he believed in, no longer listen because someone else said so.

He fought for Frontier not because Leon told him to, He fought for Frontier because he saw himself how precious life on Frontier really was. Alto was deciding for himself what he should really do, not what the role decided for him.

[magnuskn]

I honestly need to ask if Dex *really* wants to make Alto out to be a guy who just "goes along" with the flow, because that would, IMHO, make him a *terrible* protagonist and even worse romantic prospect. You really want Ranka to date a guy who only is with her, because it seemed the role to act out?

Because if you apply that behaviour of Alto towards Sheryl, you also got to apply it towards Ranka.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I honestly need to ask if Dex *really* wants to make Alto out to be a guy who just "goes along" with the flow, because that would, IMHO, make him a *terrible* protagonist and even worse romantic prospect. You really want Ranka to date a guy who only is with her, because it seemed the role to act out?

Because if you apply that behaviour of Alto towards Sheryl, you also got to apply it towards Ranka.

I feel as though that's what he was doing for the most part, of course not all the time either. I'm not saying that he wasn't following his own way but rather that he lets the situation drag him along on certain occasions. That previous post might have been taken a little too literally

This isn't really about what I want but what Alto wants. Like I said before, I do like Alto and do think he's a decent character but this is one of the aspects about him that I'm not quite fond of.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I feel as though that's what he was doing for the most part, of course not all the time either. I'm not saying that he wasn't following his own way but rather that he lets the situation drag him along on certain occasions. That previous post might have been taken a little too literally

This isn't really about what I want but what Alto wants. Like I said before, I do like Alto and do think he's a decent character but this is one of the aspects about him that I'm not quite fond of.

Well, like I said, I completely reject Yasaburos characterization of Alto, since that would make Alto a manipulative piece of shit.

I think better of him than that.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, like I said, I completely reject Yasaburos characterization of Alto, since that would make Alto a manipulative piece of shit.

I think better of him than that.

Wow

Well it's not like he's consciously doing it, I actually don't think that would make him manipulative at all.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Wow

Well it's not like he's consciously doing it, I actually don't think that would make him manipulative at all.

If he doesn't do it conciously, it isn't acting. Then it's behaving like he normally would, i.e. he really feels the things he does.

If he is acting, it is manipulation, an act of lying about your real feelings.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

If he doesn't do it conciously, it isn't acting. Then it's behaving like he normally would, i.e. he really feels the things he does.

If he is acting, it is manipulation, an act of lying about your real feelings.

I´m having fun reading this discussion , i just want to point out that i agree with magnuskn on this thing about acting or not, if he really was acting then that makes Alto the worst main character of Macross history (yes even worse than Hibiki from Macross II)so that´s why i think he was not acting.

I always interpreted Yasaburo´s claim that Alto was caught in the circumstances and that he goes with the flow as Yasaburo´s method of trying to convince Alto that he didn´t really wanted to be a Pilot or that he didn´t like to fly, but i always thought that Alto really knew what he was doing but that he didn´t know how to show why, so he was always searching for a justification.

At the end he understood that he didn´t need to justify his doing and IMO all of Yasaburo´s crap about acting and being caught up in the circumstances went down the toilet in episode 24 when Alto´s own father (someone i would think knows Alto better than Yasaburo) saw him taking off in his VF-171 and said smiling "so that is your love..."

Ok now you can continue with the discussion, as i said i´m having fun reading it.

[magnuskn]

Thanks. I just finished a re-read of the episode 21 to 24 threads, and am amazed how civil things have gotten here.

Yot-Chan would have spontaneously combusted by just reading some of those things we said back then. Of course we had a far greater number ( meaning more than one ) of, ah, less-than-coherent antagonists back then.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Thanks. I just finished a re-read of the episode 21 to 24 threads, and am amazed how civil things have gotten here.

Yot-Chan would have spontaneously combusted by just reading some of those things we said back then. Of course we had a far greater number ( meaning more than one ) of, ah, less-than-coherent antagonists back then.

Who says I didn't read them? You don't have to be signed up to read the boards...

But yeah, I've been following this discussion and am rather astonished to find that it hasn't devolved into a shouting match. I think it helps a lot that Dex and Magnus are both articulate and pretty precise in their language. More than a year of these kinds of arguments have apparently left anyone to make their points with a laser-like focus. :P

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Thanks. I just finished a re-read of the episode 21 to 24 threads, and am amazed how civil things have gotten here.

Yot-Chan would have spontaneously combusted by just reading some of those things we said back then. Of course we had a far greater number ( meaning more than one ) of, ah, less-than-coherent antagonists back then.

You and me both It was far too messy back then to have a real discussion So many things going on at the same time.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Who says I didn't read them? You don't have to be signed up to read the boards...

But yeah, I've been following this discussion and am rather astonished to find that it hasn't devolved into a shouting match. I think it helps a lot that Dex and Magnus are both articulate and pretty precise in their language. More than a year of these kinds of arguments have apparently left anyone to make their points with a laser-like focus. :P

I think it also helps that we can both look at the picture as a whole rather than focusing on character A vs. character B, at least that's how I felt back then

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Who says I didn't read them? You don't have to be signed up to read the boards...

But yeah, I've been following this discussion and am rather astonished to find that it hasn't devolved into a shouting match. I think it helps a lot that Dex and Magnus are both articulate and pretty precise in their language. More than a year of these kinds of arguments have apparently left anyone to make their points with a laser-like focus. :P

It surely helps that I regularly re-watch parts of the series and research the scenes I discuss about, to make sure I am not talking out of my ass.

[Yot-chan]

I've been looking at the Sheryl Nome Visual Collection (which I only bought for the articles! Really! ) and, looking at the Aya Endo interview, they ask her who SHE thinks should "win" in the love triangle. Her answer is semi-surprising:

"I'm very sorry, but I think it should be Sheryl. Ranka is a strong person, so she'll be all right, but Sheryl...Sheryl couldn't survive without having Alto."

I'll have a fuller translation later (not MUCH fuller, though...I don't have time to do the whole thing right now)...

[BetoJR]

Can I say I completely disagree with that viewpoint?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Can I say I completely disagree with that viewpoint?

Something tells me most people here will.

[BetoJR]

I mean, she's probably one of the foremost authorities on Sheryl's persona, but... that's not the impression the series left me with, at all.