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Old 2015-03-25, 18:33   Link #41
Klashikari
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The scenario wasn't the weak point, but the storyboard/screenplay imho.
If we consider the overall plot as "Kanmusu confronting the Abyssals over few islands to regain the area", it isn't bad by itself.
The problem is how the director pretty much had to wreck things with a convulated approach which completely turn the pacing upside down.

I dare say the whole drama with Kisaragi wasn't half bad (but badly handled as all death flags were stacked in ep3). However, Fubuki's drama in the second half and the whole Midway stuff were the biggest issue in there.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:33   Link #42
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Academus View Post
We need a scriptwriter who actually played the game and not too creative by half. I don't want you to rub your original storyline in my face every 30 seconds, especially when your plot is neither novel nor good. I'll go so far as to say Kancolle anime doesn't need a plot. The scriptwriters need to stop pretending that they got a serious story to tell, because it is very obvious by now that they are incapable of pulling it off. The show would benefit immensely if the Kisaragi siniking plot were dropped entirely.
About Kisaragi's sinking being necessary, I am still half debating on that. On one hand, it increases the serious atmosphere which is fine, seeing the first few seconds of the show and all. But the other hand, going by gameplay mechanics and comparing them to in game, only a kuso teitoku would allow even ONE shipgirl to sink. But HELL no if it's ALL slice of life and yuri schematics.

Another thing that they can work on, is NOT to have a central character but rather focusing on DIFFERENT ship girls rather than Fubuki for most of the plot, therefore you satisfy the fans who don't have Fubuki/hate Fubuki and have others share in the spotlight.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:43   Link #43
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When talking about the story board, wasn't there an interview people posted before that said the one who came up with the story was actually Tanaka Kensuke, the creator of Kancolle? Something about the director only making a few suggestions around the end of the story regarding what Tanaka presented.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:46   Link #44
Klashikari
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There is no indication how far Tanaka was involved in the anime production, and generally speaking, author and the likes hardly have the time or enough power to meddle with anime production.
Even if Tanaka provided "guidelines", there isn't really any way for him to force them to follow them to a T nor the screenplay would convey the actual perspective.

Of course, it is also possible that Tanaka failed to realize his own ideas were bad since his job isn't about anime production, who knows.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:50   Link #45
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
But the other hand, going by gameplay mechanics and comparing them to in game, only a kuso teitoku would allow even ONE shipgirl to sink. But HELL no if it's ALL slice of life and yuri schematics.
I'm getting tired of game mechanic references that not only alienate anime viewers but are also not right or at least not proven. If it was possible to simply not allow your girls to sink then the girls' fear towards sinking would be nonsensical.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:55   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I dare say the whole drama with Kisaragi wasn't half bad (but badly handled as all death flags were stacked in ep3). However, Fubuki's drama in the second half and the whole Midway stuff were the biggest issue in there.
The episode itself is not that bad. The biggest problem is why they kill her so early. Then forgot about her until last episode.

That is like really bad composition and pacing failure.
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Old 2015-03-25, 18:56   Link #47
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I'm getting tired of game mechanic references that not only alienate anime viewers but are also not right or at least not proven. If it was possible to simply not allow your girls to sink then the girls' fear towards sinking would be nonsensical.
It's an anime that's supposed to cater MOSTLY to the game fans, and next, getting heavily damaged I would say is enough to cause enough fear.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:09   Link #48
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
It's an anime that's supposed to cater MOSTLY to the game fans
Which further underlines the fact anime viewers are being alienated (probably one reason why so few of them can be seen around here) and only means you have to be extra careful to not make anime viewers go "???".

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getting heavily damaged I would say is enough to cause enough fear.
Well yeah, you have to take heavy damage to sink but in the end it's the sinking that is feared, not the damage itself.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:16   Link #49
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Which further underlines the fact anime viewers are being alienated (probably one reason why so few of them can be seen around here) and only means you have to be extra careful to not make anime viewers go "???".

Well yeah, you have to take heavy damage to sink but in the end it's the sinking that is feared, not the damage itself.
Why does the opinion of the anime only viewers matter more than the game players? KC is based on a game with ship girls. WIth anime viewers, you can already go ??? at the shinkaisen kan, arrows becoming planes, the bath scenes and well, the buckets is the game mechanics.

That's like saying that in war, you don't need to be afraid of injuries and shrapnel wounds but only need to be afraid of death.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:17   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Seihai View Post
I'm getting tired of game mechanic references that not only alienate anime viewers but are also not right or at least not proven. If it was possible to simply not allow your girls to sink then the girls' fear towards sinking would be nonsensical.
I share a similar view. I expect the game and the anime to be consistent in the sense that if A leads to B in game, it would be the same in anime as well, and not A leads to C or other nonsense.

And I have to disagree with Klashikari. I believe whoever came up with the story arc of sinking Kisaragi, which I believe are the scriptwriters, must take most of the blame. If we look at each episode by itself, Kancolle anime has some good episodes, and some not so good, just like most other anime. What stinks though, is that the episodes are strung together by the sinking plot which kills immersion, and its existence from ep.3 to ep.12 and beyond constantly reminds you that the anime and the game doesn't share the same world nor logic.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:23   Link #51
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Actually, I believe the fact someone can sink put the anime "farther" from the game, exactly because it makes sense for kanmusu to sink should a war breaks out. Of course, this aspect of the series is not required if the series is solely focused on slice of life and the likes, which I already explained why I found that detrimental.

I don't need gratuitious victims whatsoever, and I also think the way they handled Kisaragi was awkward. However, the fact they can sink give a certain tension when they are engaging a serious fight. In fact, most anime only viewers were suprised that someone died for real as they couldn't take the fights seriously at all prior episode 3.
The whole problem with Kisaragi's fate is that it wasn't built properly and was quickly washed away after episode 4. It is even worse when episode 6 followed up, as it gives the impression the anime staff has no idea what they wanted to do.

That's why I'm on the same page as Seihai: always referring to the game is a burden because it leads to a lot of troubles and nonsensical comments (like how people claimed the admiral was an idiot despite kisaragi's sinking couldn't be his fault anyway).
There is a certain balance to keep so the anime could just make a "reference" instead of directly borrowing a mechanic that doesn't flow well in an anime environment.

That's why few changes like sinking and combat phases were necessary. I don't mind tongue-in-cheek jokes like the "expedition screen" with the akatsuki, but anything beyond that is a very bad idea.
Oh and it would be best if they keep fun times exclusively for casual scenes instead of jumping the shark right in the middle of the most important operation they ever had.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:24   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Academus View Post
I share a similar view. I expect the game and the anime to be consistent in the sense that if A leads to B in game, it would be the same in anime as well, and not A leads to C or other nonsense.

And I have to disagree with Klashikari. I believe whoever came up with the story arc of sinking Kisaragi, which I believe are the scriptwriters, must take most of the blame. If we look at each episode by itself, Kancolle anime has some good episodes, and some not so good, just like most other anime. What stinks though, is that the episodes are strung together by the sinking plot which kills immersion, and its existence from ep.3 to ep.12 and beyond constantly reminds you that the anime and the game doesn't share the same world nor logic.
From this info, Kisaragi's sinking would actually come from the game creator.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:33   Link #53
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Why does the opinion of the anime only viewers matter more than the game players? KC is based on a game with ship girls. WIth anime viewers, you can already go ??? at the shinkaisen kan, arrows becoming planes, the bath scenes and well, the buckets is the game mechanics.

That's like saying that in war, you don't need to be afraid of injuries and shrapnel wounds but only need to be afraid of death.
I never said anime viewers' opinions matter more. What bugs me is that making too many insider references (especially the joking kind of) practically disables anime viewers from giving an opinion to begin with because they don't even know what the hell people are talking about. To me, this is a matter of respect.

If anime viewers question things that happen in-anime then they can simply ask if they really want to know.

Being irrelevant aside, no, it's not. Sure, you fear getting injuries. So what? You're going into war so of course you expect to get injured, however you do not expect to die. Therefore death is what you fear primarily.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:35   Link #54
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I personally quite enjoyed the anime and I'm really looking forward to the prospect of a sequel. I hope they bring in more kanmusu and have a lot more interactions between the characters and maybe drop Fubuki from being the main focus. I don't hate Fubuki, but I prefer the other characters much more.

My favourite characters in the series were by far Ooi and KTKM so maybe I'm on a different plane of existance to everyone else, because most peoplle here seemed to dislike them. I don't mind that so much though. We all have different tastes.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:41   Link #55
Klashikari
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Personally, it isn't like I hate the torp cruisers or anything. The problem is their antics are way too repetitive and the timing and relevency of these are awful most of the time. For instance, it was completely gratuitious in ep6 and 12 (in ep6, they basically have no connection to the curry competition and that scene was just... there? And in ep12, it broke the momentum and added even more issue to the suspension of disbelief considering they were trapped by TEN destroyers and they kept going mushy for nearly 2 full minutes).

I also admit that the way how they made Kitakami completely passive and meek made me wonder what was the point of her character except being the receiving end of Ooi's yandere yuri actions.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:42   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, I believe the fact someone can sink put the anime "farther" from the game, exactly because it makes sense for kanmusu to sink should a war breaks out. Of course, this aspect of the series is not required if the series is solely focused on slice of life and the likes, which I already explained why I found that detrimental.

I don't need gratuitious victims whatsoever, and I also think the way they handled Kisaragi was awkward. However, the fact they can sink give a certain tension when they are engaging a serious fight. In fact, most anime only viewers were suprised that someone died for real as they couldn't take the fights seriously at all prior episode 3.
The whole problem with Kisaragi's fate is that it wasn't built properly and was quickly washed away after episode 4. It is even worse when episode 6 followed up, as it gives the impression the anime staff has no idea what they wanted to do.

That's why I'm on the same page as Seihai: always referring to the game is a burden because it leads to a lot of troubles and nonsensical comments (like how people claimed the admiral was an idiot despite kisaragi's sinking couldn't be his fault anyway).
There is a certain balance to keep so the anime could just make a "reference" instead of directly borrowing a mechanic that doesn't flow well in an anime environment.
I believe the anime is an adaptation of the game rather than the war. In the game, you only lose kanmusu when you push your luck. In other words, in the game's world, you sink your own kanmusu. In anime, your kanmusu could sink any moment, and you have no control over it, nor any way to prevent it. Is that consistent with reality? Yes. Is that consistent with the game? No. Any subsequent mentioning of Kisaragi's sinking only serves to highlight that the adaptation is in name only.

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From this info, Kisaragi's sinking would actually come from the game creator.
Then he should stick back to game development, and anime's stuff should ask themselves why they agreed to such a stupid idea.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:46   Link #57
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Academus View Post
I believe the anime is an adaptation of the game rather than the war. In the game, you only lose kanmusu when you push your luck. In other words, in the game's world, you sink your own kanmusu. In anime, your kanmusu could sink any moment, and you have no control over it, nor any way to prevent it. Is that consistent with reality? Yes. Is that consistent with the game? No. Any subsequent mentioning of Kisaragi's sinking only serves to highlight that the adaptation is in name only.
What is the point of an anime if the series should stick with the game logic to that point?

An anime isn't supposed to just mimick the source material, but it needs it own cohension. Why on earth do we have to stick with such logic that only prevents players to lose their ships due to sheer bad luck?
Does that mean we also need battles that are stuck with 1 shelling phase and voila? How do we explain that a Kanmusu can just tank 3 wo air all day long just because she started the fight without major damage? Do we have to ask DD to launch their torpedoes only after everyone have had their shelling turn?

It is inane at this point because it is plainly the game with different visuals. That's not even an anime under such terms.
If a series centred on military operations have serious battles, I don't see how you can avoid heavy injuries or even casualties here.

Suffice to say, episode 12 "proved" that sinking could be somehow prevented with damage control. Also there is nothing that could stop them to make someone nearly sinking and have another kanmusu to tow them back to base.
So frankly, I see why people are disatisfied with Kisaragi's sinking, but the concept of sinking by itself isn't fundamentally bad, and it is inherent to the franchise due to burrowed source. They really should have handled this matter in another way.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:51   Link #58
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I believe the anime is an adaptation of the game rather than the war. In the game, you only lose kanmusu when you push your luck. In other words, in the game's world, you sink your own kanmusu. In anime, your kanmusu could sink any moment, and you have no control over it, nor any way to prevent it. Is that consistent with reality? Yes. Is that consistent with the game? No. Any subsequent mentioning of Kisaragi's sinking only serves to highlight that the adaptation is in name only.
It's not really much about reality here, but that some gameplay mechanics are there for the sake of gameplay, but isn't something you would expect to translate to any other medium adaptation.

It would be like they making an RPG adaptation that when fighting, if a character goes down it isn't a problem, he just be on the floor there, enemies won't attack him anymore, even attacks against the whole party wouldn't affect him. And after the enemies are taken care of they just get back up without a problem. As in those kind of games, only if your whole party go down you get a game over.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:52   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
What is the point of an anime if the series should stick with the game logic to that point?

An anime isn't supposed to just mimick the source material, but it needs it own cohension. Why on earth do we have to stick with such logic that only prevents players to lose their ships due to sheer bad luck?
Does that mean we need battles that are stuck with 1 shelling phase and voila? How do we explain that a Kanmusu can just tank 3 wo air all day long just because she started the fight without major damage? It is inane at this point because it is plainly the game with different visuals. That's not even an anime at this point.
That's a slippery slope argument. I'm sure there's a huge difference between doing a let's play video and making an anime that at least pay attention to some of the important underlying principle and logic of the source material. And I'm sure the way a character dies is counted as important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Suffice to say, episode 12 "proved" that sinking could be somehow prevented with damage control. Also there is nothing that could stop them to make someone nearly sinking and have another kanmusu to tow them back to base.
So frankly, I see why people are disatisfied with Kisaragi's sinking, but the concept of sinking by itself isn't fundamentally bad, and it is inherent to the franchise due to burrowed source. They really should have handled this matter in another way.
And indeed escorting a badly damaged kanmusu back is possible in game with FCF, and more importantly by player's explicit command, so if they want to show how realistic the war is, they can do that without breaking the immersion. They didn't.
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Old 2015-03-25, 19:55   Link #60
Klashikari
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The problem is that "sinking" mechanic in the game is designed in such way because the game is overly reliant on RNG without any way to change formation or force a retreat during the battle of a heavily damaged Kanmusu. If sinking wasn't dependant on the admiral choice for pushing his luck, then it would be absolutely unfair gamewise. That is to say, there is no reason that point should be present in the anime, ever.

Really Academus, do you really think it would flow well that , for example, Fubuki would tank every wo plane and have absolutely no chance for sinking in the anime, just because it would be impossible in the game? That premise is just counter intuitive in its nature and presentation.
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