F/SN UBW TV - Episode 14 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Esclair

She probably wouldn't have been so smug if he didn't think he was hot shit. Not to mention he was sacrificing kids to do it, and Caster wanted to put him in his place.

And then his first train of thought was "I'm going to hit her for upstaging me". He ordered her not to use her NP on him. What was stopping her from just beam spamming or hypnotizing him like she did Shirou?

There's having an ego and being a dunce. He fell into the latter group.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Nasu makes her a victim for almost everything she has done. Aphrodite controlled her, blablabla, brainwash brainwash brainwash, witch hatred, you can't blame her, etc. It's a really short section in the novel itself, and can be summed up in a few sentences to be honest.

As for FZ-Berserker's backstory, making him explain why everything went wrong in the Einzbern Consultation Room special wasn't really a good idea, in my opinion. Since Saber is female, it takes a good amount of imagination, why on Earth Berserker seems to be so pissed at Arthur. It would have been a bit problematic because of the pacing and the airing time they had left, but Saber just killing him off like that and ending it with a sentence or two from Berserker could have been done far better.

That Medea plotline is literally what some variations of Medea's legend has. No twist as far as I can see.

I was mostly referring to reading the original King Arthur aka Le Morte d'Arthur. In regards to Saber, she was shown wearing a suit in FZ which made her look like a beautiful young man. So it isn't farfetched that Saber was able to conceal her gender since Saber hasn't really showed any mannerisms or portrayal which would solidly put her under the category of a female other than her sex organs. Plus Merlin in the legend is a dick so it wouldn't be off either that he would put a dick on Saber.
Then Lancelot... He was accurately (in terms of ufoTM) portrayed in the legend as someone who went mad and angry while being sad that Saber never really gave the punishment he thought was fitting. Everytime Lancelot came by to Saber, Gawain would pop up and do battle with him instead. Saber also gave him safe passage everytime. Lancelot allowed Saber to conquer parts of his territory and commanded his army to spare Saber in all their battles. In those battles, Lancelot would end up with the upper hand and he was angry at that so he made Saber withdraw everytime that happened. It's pretty clear in the legend why he would be so damn angry at Saber.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Twi

And then his first train of thought was "I'm going to hit her for upstaging me". He ordered her not to use her NP on him. What was stopping her from just beam spamming or hypnotizing him like she did Shirou?

There's having an ego and being a dunce. He fell into the latter group.

She did hypnotize him. If she really used Rule Breaker, then her former master was using "non-existent" command seals. Then there was also the illusion about the cave/tomb/dungeon.


So yes, her former Master failed by not using the CS to order her to not use any magic or her NP on him and herself without permission. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she found a loophole even with that. Well we will get an example of how to get around the CS system in the next few episodes anyway.

[Lorhand]

It's more like Nasu made Medea become the victim for pretty much every notable action. Twist might not have been the right word, more like he mixed in several different tellings of her story for the Fate-version. Besides, she is classified as a fictional heroic spirit, who never truly existed. A genuine heroic spirit, but still fictional.

As for Lancelot again, I still consider it rather lazy and crudely done overall. I can understand the people who were rather disappointed when, after the built-up between Berserker and Saber, their battle ended unceremoniously. Also, it's canon that Berserker was defeated because Kariya eventually ran out of mana and Berserker just stopped moving, but the anime doesn't really make that clear.

Furthermore, that meta tactic you are talking about can in my opinion backfire. Pointing to the original story and saying "Read it." is something I consider a cheap cop-out. If the studio has the time, which in this case they probably haven't, they should take it to explain the mythical background. It doesn't have to be that long, so long as the viewer doesn't have to be forced to be well-versed in history and myths or use external sources in general, so he can appreciate the heroic spirits (I'm not really saying Type-Moon's cop-out was much better btw, when they added summaries of the legends to the status menu). And that is pretty much everything I have to say about this matter.

[king12354]

What was the reason for Lancer not finishing Caster off?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by king12354

What was the reason for Lancer not finishing Caster off?

As Archer said: "This Witch is probably the best servant at running away". Also Caster's Rank B luck > Lancer's Rank E luck. It's even enough to not get fatally hit by Gae Bolg.

[GDB]

Plus Lancer wants good fights. Caster just running away while trying not to die isn't really his cup of tea.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wang

If I could be so bold, I think I'm one of the weird people who seems to straddle the line between being a "VN devotee" and a supporter of original content in the anime.

With the exception of my minor gripe that I mentioned on the previous page, I never saw any of the original content presented in UBW thus far as being "changes." In fact, the UBW anime provides us with a lot of new scenes that don't change, but add to the already existing events of the VN plotlines. Because when it comes down to it, if we do follow the VN, of course they aren't being followed to the exact letter (as expected of any animated adaptation, really), the key events stay their course without deviating too much if at all. I do note that an actual change is that Kuzuki and Caster are presented more sympathetically than their VN-counterparts, which I think is actually a plus. For example, Kuzuki in the VN was more malevolent and encouraged Caster to kill people, whereas here he's presented as being more apathetic than active malevolent, which is a better presentation in my opinion. And yet, even with changes like this, the plot of the VN doesn't change.

What I find delightful in the UBW anime is that we not only are looking through Shirou's perspective, which we're always looking through in the VN (with the exception of an occasional interlude), we get to see a lot more perspectives in the animation. This doesn't break the VN's canon. Rather, we're seeing other things going on that aren't in Shirou's head. For example, most of the scenes that happen at the Church. We only get to see what happens there maybe once or twice in the actual UBW VN, whereas here we're seeing more going on with Kotomine, and how he interacts with the occasional visitor such as Gilgamesh, Shinji, or Caster's old Master.

Overall, I a do consider myself a die-hard Fate/Stay Night fan who does want to see it being faithful VN as much as possible since I've devoted myself to it quite a bit (even if I make the treasonous admission UBW is my least favorite route). And so far, I'd say it's doing that while adding more, not changing.

I'm sitting on the same fence really.

The original content has been really great and has added a lot more breadth to a story that was a bit insular. But I also feel like they've taken away from the two central characters of the show. At this point in VN, I could understand just how determined Shirou was in being a hero and what drove him so much. The VN made the point of hammering it home constantly to us. But I just don't get that with this Shirou. It's the same with Rin: the show doesn’t really go into much detail on her father issues and how torn she is between being herself or a "proper" mage and how vulnerable that makes her. All I can see is the tsundere act.

It's kinda annoying really because the adaptation is pretty much perfect except for one very fundamental aspect. Inn fact it's so perfect that I feel like I'm nitpicking even though it's a fundamental issue.

[Rising Dragon]

The difference in medium makes that pretty difficult. You can only convey so much through a character's actions without spoken thought, like you would with a book.

[Rev Okkin]

Haak,
As far as I know, it's been pretty damn good in its themes and whatnot.
I would probably explain it in detail, but here's the interview that would answer all that:

Spoiler for Size:

[Jaden]

Oh that's an interesting interview. It sounds like Nasu really wants this anime to be for new viewers, but also wants it to be "casually watchable", so the plot and characters have to be built with minimal exposition.
That's kind of contradictory, but they're doing a good job so far, I think.

Caster hypnotized her master?

This annoys me a little bit. In the VN she was able to hypnotize Shirou because he didn't have many magic circuits active (he was pretty much a normal human), but she wasn't able to control someone like Rin.

So how'd she so easily dominate her master, who was a proper, high-standing mage from the association?

I think she didn't actually have control over her master. She had prepared some high-level illusion trap in the workshop and her master walked into that.

Why'd Caster's master still have command seals after Caster used Rule Breaker?

That's more easily explained. Yes, she can steal command seals with Rule Breaker when using it on other people's servants, but we were never shown what happens when she uses it on herself.

When a servant dies and is absorbed by the grail, command seals disappear (for example, Archer and Rider's deaths), but from Fate/Zero we know that for some reason or another, there's a bunch of unused command seals from previous wars that still exist.

Theory: Masters who lose or abandon their contracts can normally keep their command seals, but the supervisor eventually retrieves these. Contracting with a rogue servant you haven't had before creates 3 brand new seals.

[Lorhand]

Only 21 Command Spells are produced by the Grail per War. Not more, not less, unless you're cheating. The unused ones are later taken by the supervisor. Caster gets more because it's Caster. She already figured out all the mechanics of the Holy Grail and can manipulate everything.

Q: After Caster summoned Assassin (Sasaki Kojirou), was she branded with Command Spells? I ask because I don’t think she ever used a Command Spell on Assassin.
A: She had something similar to a Command Spell. Though, as a fake Master with a fake Servant, it wasn’t something as powerful as a true Command Spell. While she may not originally have received any Command Spells, Caster may have skillfully borrowed the power of the Greater Grail to forge herself an imitation.

Spoiler for New contracts:

Rin for instance does not get three new Command Spells after she made a contract with Saber. Zouken didn't get any either, when he made his contract with True Assassin (although I personally think, he should be able to make himself some, theoretically, since he created the system himself). Then again, it's mentioned that TA's summoning was not normal, so that is probably not a good example.

Q: Was Zouken branded with Command Spells after he summoned True Assassin through Kojirou’s body? Or, not being human (and a bunch of worms that infest Sakura), did he not receive them? Also, was this the proper way of summoning the regular Assassin?
A: Even though Assassin’s Command Spells were fake, Caster still had them, so additional ones were not created. True Assassin’s summoning ritual was most certainly outside the norm.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Jaden

This annoys me a little bit. In the VN she was able to hypnotize Shirou because he didn't have many magic circuits active (he was pretty much a normal human), but she wasn't able to control someone like Rin.

So how'd she so easily dominate her master, who was a proper, high-standing mage from the association?

I think she didn't actually have control over her master. She had prepared some high-level illusion trap in the workshop and her master walked into that.


.

Not just because he didn't have good circuits. Once Caster completes a spell, a normal magus can't wash it away. Something about trying to wash away a block with water. The method she used was done while he was asleep and without any decent protection around his place besides an alarm bell. From Fate Zero we've seen the type of security system at Rin's place, Shinji's home is probably protected as well, good luck getting to Ilya, she didn't know Lancer's master, so Shirou was a viable choice in getting close.

And, being his Servant meant there was a direct connection she could exploit. She made it clear she's way better than him, so he resorted to abuse. The woman already knew the system well enough to hack it, so he was screwed one way or another.

And I thought she really sent him to that place by folding space like she does to teleport Shirou to her in a Bad End.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wang

I also know they contradicted some materials that existed before the UBW anime. I recall from some sources such as the Type Moon wiki that Caster's Master was described as almost an average-joe with minimal defining characteristics before being off'd by her. This guy is most certainly... not that. And it was implied she manipulated him more instead of this new guy being an idiot. But I guess that's a relatively minor complaint since it's so one-off and we never actually saw any portrayal of the guy until now. I won't be "that guy."

I thought the same thing, but then I read over the original passage in the VN (accessible from the references in Atram's TMwiki entry), and there are two things in favor of the anime version. First, the VN material in question is all from Medea's perspective. Given her personal history, it's hardly surprising that she might see Atram as having "few noteworthy characteristics", and him using the Command Spells for "meaningless things" is inherently a matter of interpretation. Second, the only thing I can see that was outright missing in (though not technically contradicted by) the anime was that she told him that he did not need the Command Spells and that she would be faithful to him without them. That could be present in the missing 7 minutes, or could have occurred "off-camera". It says that she did not like the fact that their contact still existed, and thus "killed" him with Rule Breaker in the VN, which is certainly true in the anime "from a certain point of view". Obi Wan would be proud...

One thing I thought might have been a plot hole was the scene where Kotomine tells Atram that there are two spots left, when at that time there would have been three Servants left to summon (Assassin, Archer, and Saber). But going back, he specifically noted that there were five Masters chosen at that point. There were actually only four (Illya, Sakura, Atram, and Kotomine himself, by way of Bazett), but he was probably including Rin in that list, even though she didn't technically get chosen until shortly before she summoned Archer (presumably after Assassin was summoned).

[Lemon Ice]

Originally Posted by king12354

What was the reason for Lancer not finishing Caster off?

He was under a Command Spell forbidding him from killing opponent Servants during their first fight.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

One thing I thought might have been a plot hole was the scene where Kotomine tells Atram that there are two spots left, when at that time there would have been three Servants left to summon (Assassin, Archer, and Saber). But going back, he specifically noted that there were five Masters chosen at that point. There were actually only four (Illya, Sakura, Atram, and Kotomine himself, by way of Bazett), but he was probably including Rin in that list, even though she didn't technically get chosen until shortly before she summoned Archer (presumably after Assassin was summoned).

There's also the Master that wanted to summon an Assassin, which Caster killed before he had a chance to. He probably had Command Spells.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Apparently there was some twitter post confirming the cut 7 minutes. I haven't seen it myself, though.

Goddamn it. Will wait for the DVD release.

[Julio C]

Illya was so happy in looking forward to meet Shiro, but no here comes Gil and ruins it for everybody. I really wanted to see Illya team up with Shiro and Rin to take on Caster.

If Caster gains control of Saber, there will be no stopping her from winning. She still has Assasin, and with Archer on her side, it will take someone crazy to her out. If Gil wins this next fight which it's pretty obvious he will, he is going to be the only one capable of taking Caster out. I would very much like to see Gil take on Caster.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Lemon Ice

There's also the Master that wanted to summon an Assassin, which Caster killed before he had a chance to. He probably had Command Spells.

Oh, forgot him. Yet another character who had never appeared in the adaptations; though unlike Atram, he probably never will. Not even the appearance of a plot hole, then. One of the things I've always liked about Fate, is how everything is so consistent...at least internally.

[Ernietheracefan]

Ilya's angry voice is so awesome.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Julio C

I would very much like to see Gil take on Caster.

That'd be some crazy shit that would look like straight out of a Touhou game. Until Gil gets bored and pull Ea.