The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

As of now Kuyoh's Speech is awkward and her movements jerky, they would have noticed something was funny if it was her. I doubt she would have changed so dramatically in such little time

Unless she was faking it until she really needed to get into action. At least, that was what I figured when I read this volume the first time around.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Hunh. Weird. I thought that the girl who appeared in the clubroom was a cloaked or otherwise disguised version of Kuyoh. If she managed to hide her Canopy Domain aura, she could get close to study Haruhi and plant a destructive factor in Nagato, or whatever it is that's been done to her to make her fall ill again.

Yuki didn't fall ill in alpha timeline, she fell ill in the beta timeline and Kuyoh did not have to get close to her to cause it to happen. The only way I could see it being Kuyoh is if the beta timeline was the original and Haruhi, after finding out about her powers in the beta timeline decided that it was more fun when she didn't know and the alpha timeline is a reset where the alternate SOS Dan members will become part of her group.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by PastPrime

Yuki didn't fall ill in alpha timeline, she fell ill in the beta timeline and Kuyoh did not have to get close to her to cause it to happen. The only way I could see it being Kuyoh is if the beta timeline was the original and Haruhi, after finding out about her powers in the beta timeline decided that it was more fun when she didn't know and the alpha timeline is a reset where the alternate SOS Dan members will become part of her group.

No, just no.

The beta and alpha timelines were caused, presumably, by the girl calling Kyon. That small change managed to change a whole bunch of events.

I don't know why the timelines split, but my personal theory is because the girl called Kyon from outside the universe, or something.

Remember how Kuyoh grabbed Emiri Kimidori in the cafe in chapter 2? She could have planted a virus in the IDSE itself, infecting all the LHIs on Earth, not just Yuki.

And the Alternate Brigade are EVIL. EVIL. EVIL.

They would never join the SOS Brigade.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No, just no.

The beta and alpha timelines were caused, presumably, by the girl calling Kyon. That small change managed to change a whole bunch of events.

I don't know why the timelines split, but my personal theory is because the girl called Kyon from outside the universe, or something.

Remember how Kuyoh grabbed Emiri Kimidori in the cafe in chapter 2? She could have planted a virus in the IDSE itself, infecting all the LHIs on Earth, not just Yuki.

And the Alternate Brigade are EVIL. EVIL. EVIL.

They would never join the SOS Brigade.

I don't think that the two entities know enough about each other to create a virus to infect the other. During the Snow Moutain episode they just cut her contact with the Data entity, probably jamming the signal some way. It is likely that Kuyoh did something like that again in the beta time line.
If Kyon does play his trump card in one, or both, the time lines, I wonder how he will go about it. Will he just tell Haruhi that he is John Smith (boring), or give her a clue that lets her figure it out.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by PastPrime

I don't think that the two entities know enough about each other to create a virus to infect the other. During the Snow Moutain episode they just cut her contact with the Data entity, probably jamming the signal some way. It is likely that Kuyoh did something like that again in the beta time line.
If Kyon does play his trump card in one, or both, the time lines, I wonder how he will go about it. Will he just tell Haruhi that he is John Smith (boring), or give her a clue that lets her figure it out.

...They've had ample time to study each other since Snow Mountain.

I think he'd only get the chance to tell her AFTER her powers have been stolen by Sasaki... thus negating any real effect from the whole John Smith thing.

(Remember, I think that the Beta timeline is doomed, so...)

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

...They've had ample time to study each other since Snow Mountain.

I think he'd only get the chance to tell her AFTER her powers have been stolen by Sasaki... thus negating any real effect from the whole John Smith thing.

(Remember, I think that the Beta timeline is doomed, so...)

I don't think Sasaki can take her powers. It seems more likely, to me, that Sasaki has simlar powers, but a different outlook. Haruhi = Chaos (if Kyon wasn't there) while Sasaki = Order ( a sterile type order that made Kyon prefer Haruhi's closed space). Two sides of the same coin.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by PastPrime

I don't think Sasaki can take her powers. It seems more likely, to me, that Sasaki has simlar powers, but a different outlook. Haruhi = Chaos (if Kyon wasn't there) while Sasaki = Order ( a sterile type order that made Kyon prefer Haruhi's closed space). Two sides of the same coin.

Sasaki has no powers, as of yet, besides generating that overlay of closed space. Kyoko was talking about how they needed Kyon in order to transfer Haruhi's powers to Sasaki.

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Sasaki has no powers, as of yet, besides generating that overlay of closed space. Kyoko was talking about how they needed Kyon in order to transfer Haruhi's powers to Sasaki.

I have a crazy theory as to that. Remember Kyon's first intro in the first novel, where he says he used to wish outrageous things like time travelers etc. did exist, but he learned they didn't?

... What if Kyon gave rise to Suzumiya Haruhi by wishing strongly for someone who could prove that all the outragous things are possible? He can't do it for himself because his mind now rejects the possibility unless a reality is forced on him, but Haruhi doesn't have that kind of block in her mind.

What if the power originated with Kyon and Haruhi is just its channel of expression? This might explain why the other brigade needs Kyon to affect a transfer of power to Sasaki.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

I have a crazy theory as to that. Remember Kyon's first intro in the first novel, where he says he used to wish outrageous things like time travelers etc. did exist, but he learned they didn't?

... What if Kyon gave rise to Suzumiya Haruhi by wishing strongly for someone who could prove that all the outragous things are possible? He can't do it for himself because his mind now rejects the possibility unless a reality is forced on him, but Haruhi doesn't have that kind of block in her mind.

What if the power originated with Kyon and Haruhi is just its channel of expression? This might explain why the other brigade needs Kyon to affect a transfer of power to Sasaki.

Oh, the Kyon Theory.

...I hate that theory, as much sense as it makes. Giving Kyon special abilities would remove what makes him special, ironically.

He's an ordinary human, but with a decidedly extraordinary way of thinking. He's the avatar of all of us who forgot what it meant to be a child, who forgot our dreams and innocence.

Giving him magical god powers would remove all of that.

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Oh, the Kyon Theory.

...I hate that theory, as much sense as it makes. Giving Kyon special abilities would remove what makes him special, ironically.

He's an ordinary human, but with a decidedly extraordinary way of thinking. He's the avatar of all of us who forgot what it meant to be a child, who forgot our dreams and innocence.

Giving him magical god powers would remove all of that.

Wow. I like that description. ^^ Also, I'm not a fanatic proponent of my own theory ... it just seemed to make sense when Sasaki said Kyon could effect a transfer of the power, when he is the only thing that links the two candidates for containing and expressing it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Wow. I like that description. ^^ Also, I'm not a fanatic proponent of my own theory ... it just seemed to make sense when Sasaki said Kyon could effect a transfer of the power, when he is the only thing that links the two candidates for containing and expressing it.

Thanks.

And maybe it's because they both have feelings for him? He's sort of an emotional link between them?

Just my two cents on that matter.

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Thanks.

And maybe it's because they both have feelings for him? He's sort of an emotional link between them?

Just my two cents on that matter.

Mmmeh ... I'm not so sure his old friend has 'feelings' for him, exactly. Not romantic ones, anyway. She seems to really mean it when she says love is a temporary sickness.

Something about her is just really off. I mean, she cares more about exams than about the possibility she might be a goddess ... o_o In some ways, she is much, much weirder than Haruhi. Even weirder than Kuyoh!
Her brigade may be more disfunctional than evil in the end. I mean, I'm not sure Kuyoh has enough sense of morality or even of self to be consciously evil. Fujiwara's a dirtbag, that much seems sure right now. Sasaki ... She might be imply deluded.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Mmmeh ... I'm not so sure his old friend has 'feelings' for him, exactly. Not romantic ones, anyway. She seems to really mean it when she says love is a temporary sickness.

And wouldn't it be ironic, even with all her denial of love, she ends up falling for him anyway? She calls him her "close friend", even when that isn't how Kyon himself saw their relationship, though he certainly found her attractive.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Something about her is just really off. I mean, she cares more about exams than about the possibility she might be a goddess ... o_o In some ways, she is much, much weirder than Haruhi. Even weirder than Kuyoh!

Notice how everyone around Kyon is pretty damned weird.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Her brigade may be more disfunctional than evil in the end. I mean, I'm not sure Kuyoh has enough sense of morality or even of self to be consciously evil. Fujiwara's a dirtbag, that much seems sure right now. Sasaki ... She might be imply deluded.

What about Kyoko, though? I'm betting she's quite manipulative and dangerous, as would be fitting of Mikuru's opposite.

Fujiwara seems to only be in it to get a few laughs... and yeah, Kuyoh isn't self-aware enough to be "evil", though she (or one of her kind) did use some amoral tactics back on Snow Mountain, though this can be attributed to the Canopy Domain lacking experience with organic lifeforms.

I wouldn't say Sasaki's deluded as much as she is uncaring. She seems to just go along with whatever anyone tells her. This attitude will not bring a good end for her, mark my words

[Aebliss]

Ahh, I got Kyoko and Sasaki mixed up. I should have written that Kyoko is deluded. And I personally see her more as an opposite for Koizumi than for Mikuru; she may appear friendly and stressed, but she was cunning enough and has the organisational talent to nab Mikuru in broad daylight. The only reason she failed was that Kyon and Mori were on-site, methinks ... But she doesn't seem so much actiely evil, as evil for the sake of what she considers to be the greater good, namely the ascension of her own goddess, Sasaki. Of course this does not excuse her actions, but she hasn't gotten to the point of depravity where she'd tie children to train tracks yet.

After Yuki's description of the difficulty in understanding the Canopy Domain for her own people, I thought the whole Snow Mountain ordeal may have been nothing more than the Canopy Domain's first attempt at communicating with Haruhi -- or something similar to communicating. From their standpoint, it may not actually have been an attack as such. They placed Haruhi in a space they could control. That sounds a lot like invoking laboratory conditions for a particularly interesting specimen. That these conditions also cut Yuki off from her people may not have been intended, or may not have been the result of aggression or malice, but simply a desire to provide untainted conditions -- or the Canopy Domain may not even have given it conscious thought. They've been at odds with the Thought Entity for who knows how long, blocking their old antagonist when studying Haruhi may have been as logical and unemotional to them as putting up an umbrella against rain is to humans.
It might be interesting to see how Kuyoh would evolve, if given enough time and input to do so.

Fujiwara ... He is dangerous. He is malicious, he takes a perverse delight in situations going badly, and worst of all, he seems to me to be under a lot of pressure. He's stated that he hates being part of inevitable events, which he can do nothing about. If too many inevitable events happen, I somehow have the feeling that he might snap and do something horrible. He seems the type ...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Ahh, I got Kyoko and Sasaki mixed up. I should have written that Kyoko is deluded. And I personally see her more as an opposite for Koizumi than for Mikuru; she may appear friendly and stressed, but she was cunning enough and has the organisational talent to nab Mikuru in broad daylight. The only reason she failed was that Kyon and Mori were on-site, methinks ... But she doesn't seem so much actiely evil, as evil for the sake of what she considers to be the greater good, namely the ascension of her own goddess, Sasaki. Of course this does not excuse her actions, but she hasn't gotten to the point of depravity where she'd tie children to train tracks yet.

After Yuki's description of the difficulty in understanding the Canopy Domain for her own people, I thought the whole Snow Mountain ordeal may have been nothing more than the Canopy Domain's first attempt at communicating with Haruhi -- or something similar to communicating. From their standpoint, it may not actually have been an attack as such. They placed Haruhi in a space they could control. That sounds a lot like invoking laboratory conditions for a particularly interesting specimen. That these conditions also cut Yuki off from her people may not have been intended, or may not have been the result of aggression or malice, but simply a desire to provide untainted conditions -- or the Canopy Domain may not even have given it conscious thought. They've been at odds with the Thought Entity for who knows how long, blocking their old antagonist when studying Haruhi may have been as logical and unemotional to them as putting up an umbrella against rain is to humans.
It might be interesting to see how Kuyoh would evolve, if given enough time and input to do so.

Fujiwara ... He is dangerous. He is malicious, he takes a perverse delight in situations going badly, and worst of all, he seems to me to be under a lot of pressure. He's stated that he hates being part of inevitable events, which he can do nothing about. If too many inevitable events happen, I somehow have the feeling that he might snap and do something horrible. He seems the type ...

I agree with all of this.

Isn't every event inevitable, though? Technically speaking?

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I agree with all of this.

Isn't every event inevitable, though? Technically speaking?

If Novikov is right, then yes, they are. Which would drive Fujiwara up the wall and make it questionable whether he'd ever have stepped up to perform the role of marionette of time. He's only stated that some events are inevitable and necessary from his standpoint, like providing that microchip or whatever it was to the right person. If he really felt he couldn't affect any change, he wouldn't be involved in a battle against Mikuru's faction, I think.

Personally, I'm more in favor of the theory that a time traveler trying to interfere in past events would cause a new timeline to split off. Heck, even the very presence of a time traveler in a time and place where he should not be should cause that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

If Novikov is right, then yes, they are. Which would drive Fujiwara up the wall and make it questionable whether he'd ever have stepped up to perform the role of marionette of time. He's only stated that some events are inevitable and necessary from his standpoint, like providing that microchip or whatever it was to the right person. If he really felt he couldn't affect any change, he wouldn't be involved in a battle against Mikuru's faction, I think.

Personally, I'm more in favor of the theory that a time traveler trying to interfere in past events would cause a new timeline to split off. Heck, even the very presence of a time traveler in a time and place where he should not be should cause that.

That would pretty much destroy a lot of the cosmology of the Haruhiverse.

Remember, Novikov's point was that time travel cannot affect the past, otherwise the internal consistency of the universe is overridden and nothing makes sense anymore.

Besides, the way Mikuru and Fujiwara talk, it seems like there is only one future.

One reason Fujiwara would stick around? Because the only way to break consistency and override the future is with Haruhi's powers, which don't fall into such simple bounds such as reality. Therefore, everybody and his mother wants control over them.

Also, there's a simpler possibility: Time agents aren't told they can't change the future.

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That would pretty much destroy a lot of the cosmology of the Haruhiverse.

Only the cosmology we know of so far. The universe is vast and its mysteries are mostly just that: mysteries.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Remember, Novikov's point was that time travel cannot affect the past, otherwise the internal consistency of the universe is overridden and nothing makes sense anymore.
Besides, the way Mikuru and Fujiwara talk, it seems like there is only one future.

One future, and yet it is still divided by warring peoples. And yet, oddly enough, the time travelers go out of their way to make certain that some events come to pass and others don't. If Novikov was right, those events would be inevitable even without their interference. The little boy who was almost killed by Fujiwara's faction then should have been fine even without Kyon and Mikuru stepping in -- or else he would have been replaceable, from the future's standpoint, as his influence on the future would still have crystallized, only under another name.

Originally Posted by Laisos Erranon

One reason Fujiwara would stick around? Because the only way to break consistency and override the future is with Haruhi's powers, which don't fall into such simple bounds such as reality. Therefore, everybody and his mother wants control over them.

Excellent point. And yet Fujiwara seems dismissive of the possibility of Sasaki acquiring Haruhi's powers, or at least not openly supportive, and he hasn't gone anywhere near Haruhi that I know. ... Scheming in the shadows?

Originally Posted by Kaiso Erranon

Also, there's a simpler possibility: Time agents aren't told they can't change the future.

If that speculation is correct, it's no wonder adult Mikuru has become so manipulative. If she can't change the past: she is then obligated to contribute to it coming to pass exactly as it is recorded, regardless of old affinities and loyalties ... If anyone ever tells this to Fujiwara, he might shoot up his office.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Only the cosmology we know of so far. The universe is vast and its mysteries are mostly just that: mysteries.

Breaking how time logically works still breaks the cosmology...

Originally Posted by Aebliss

One future, and yet it is still divided by warring peoples. And yet, oddly enough, the time travelers go out of their way to make certain that some events come to pass and others don't. If Novikov was right, those events would be inevitable even without their interference. The little boy who was almost killed by Fujiwara's faction then should have been fine even without Kyon and Mikuru stepping in -- or else he would have been replaceable, from the future's standpoint, as his influence on the future would still have crystallized, only under another name.

No, because that would change the future. It was predetermined that Mikuru and Kyon would help him: Therefore, they had to.

My theory is that consistency makes certain events come to pass, but in a logical fashion: Through the time travelers ensuring their own future.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Excellent point. And yet Fujiwara seems dismissive of the possibility of Sasaki acquiring Haruhi's powers, or at least not openly supportive, and he hasn't gone anywhere near Haruhi that I know. ... Scheming in the shadows?

No one except Kyoko seems willing to act-- I suspect they're all scared of what Haruhi can do to them. Fujiwara, however, doesn't care who the god is: he just cares that there is one.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

If that speculation is correct, it's no wonder adult Mikuru has become so manipulative. If she can't change the past: she is then obligated to contribute to it coming to pass exactly as it is recorded, regardless of old affinities and loyalties ... If anyone ever tells this to Fujiwara, he might shoot up his office.

Bingo. That's what I've been saying about Adult Mikuru all along.


Also, another point in favor of Novikov: The data aliens (and, by extension, the LHIs) can synchronize with their future selves, but, according to Yuki, seem unable to change the future using the knowledge they gain from doing so. As such, they become bound to their future, without free will, unable to do anything but watch. Which is why Yuki, at the start of Vol. 7, stops synchronizing. She doesn't want to know the future anymore.

[ganbaru]

The time-plane theory could make possible to change a event in the past without interfering with the future were the interferer came from , or a I wrong?
By the way, saying than the Anti-SOS are evil is biased. Good or evil are only a way of perspective.