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Old 2017-01-04, 15:34   Link #35601
Lila
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Hey everyone, I wanted to point out a few contradictions to you guys. There is an explanation for them, which is exactly why I wanted to mention them here too. I don't mean to critizise the game

1) Ange Episode 4: "I don't know why you are not Asumu's child, but it doesn't matter that to you, she was a mother right?"
Ange Episode 8: "In the future, it was well known that Rudolf had switched the babies."
followed by the comment: "It's no wonder she knew about it."

2)Kyrie Episode 4: "I'm sorry, in the past I treated you badly, just because I thought Asumu was your mother. "
Ange Episode 6: "That's why I was so shocked. She never showed her feelings on the outside."
Rudolf Episode 7 about Battler: "Kyrie, he likes you so much." (or something along those lines)

3) Episode 8 Bern in red: "Natsuhi's room was immediately sealed after they discovered the corpses." "The seals will definitely not break."
Battler Episode 8: "After murdering Natsuhi, the parent couldn't leave the room."
Later in the garden (-that is: outside said room - ), Rudolf: "Sticking the pen into her pure throat, that was a real masterpiece."

Last edited by Lila; 2017-01-30 at 10:31.
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Old 2017-02-27, 06:35   Link #35602
Mali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lila View Post
3) Episode 8 Bern in red: "Natsuhi's room was immediately sealed after they discovered the corpses." "The seals will definitely not break."
Battler Episode 8: "After murdering Natsuhi, the parent couldn't leave the room."
Later in the garden (-that is: outside said room - ), Rudolf: "Sticking the pen into her pure throat, that was a real masterpiece."
Hi,
in a post of http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/ someone pointed out how the parent can escape without locking him/herself up in that room:if the child culprit lied to the servants that they should lock up Natsuhi's room without even noticing that 2 corpses are in that room. That creates other possibilities of culprits, too.
However it's not hinted in Bern's game, but Battler's solution in the manga uses unhinted actions like Battler made Krauss+Natsuhi open the door.
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Old 2017-02-27, 19:05   Link #35603
Lila
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Originally Posted by Mali View Post
Hi,
in a post of http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/ someone pointed out how the parent can escape without locking him/herself up in that room:if the child culprit lied to the servants that they should lock up Natsuhi's room without even noticing that 2 corpses are in that room. That creates other possibilities of culprits, too.
However it's not hinted in Bern's game, but Battler's solution in the manga uses unhinted actions like Battler made Krauss+Natsuhi open the door.
Thank you. I have to admit though, sadly, I do not yet understand these explanations. I'd be happy if you could maybe add a few details?
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Old 2017-02-28, 06:28   Link #35604
Mali
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Original posts:
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...join-after-the
and
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...p-with-rudolph

It's the same question you asked here.

For example, we use Battler as the culprit child and Rudolph as the 'culprit of the first twilight who killed six people'.
After Rudolph killed the two people in Natsuhi's room, he left the room unlocked.
Battler told the servants (they stayed as a group in that time) to lock the door. He could told them something like this: Battler had a talk with Natsuhi and Krauss in that room and after he left, he noticed no 'lock click'. Worrying about this, the servant should lock the door for real using the master key but not 'distrubing' (the dead) couple. The trick is simnilar to the trick Natsuhi and Krauss were pulling on the siblings to prevent them to speak/meet with Kinzo.

Battler (or culprit x) could just order the servants to do that.
Notice the trick could be also used on the 1st twilight. It just require a servant who don't tell he/she lock the door because he/she didn't remember it or feared to be suspected.

I think Ryukishi had in mind that nobody than the culprit is responsible for the construction of the closed rooms. The rule 'non-culprit characters do not cooperate with the culprit' seems to prohibit it. Manga-Battler states to the rule: no secret agreements and accomplices, no covering up and giving alibis to the culprit. Also, in the blue truth he used Battler as a aid to let Rudolph in Natsuhi's room (they would not Rudolph in if he tried it ). Therefore the author kept the rule intact if the non-culprit character does not know the true intentions of the culprit.
In other words: The culprit can use innocent characters as aids if they think nothing is suspicous, that's the premise.
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Old 2017-02-28, 14:27   Link #35605
Lila
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
Original posts:
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...join-after-the
and
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...p-with-rudolph

It's the same question you asked here.

For example, we use Battler as the culprit child and Rudolph as the 'culprit of the first twilight who killed six people'.
After Rudolph killed the two people in Natsuhi's room, he left the room unlocked.
Battler told the servants (they stayed as a group in that time) to lock the door. He could told them something like this: Battler had a talk with Natsuhi and Krauss in that room and after he left, he noticed no 'lock click'. Worrying about this, the servant should lock the door for real using the master key but not 'distrubing' (the dead) couple. The trick is simnilar to the trick Natsuhi and Krauss were pulling on the siblings to prevent them to speak/meet with Kinzo.

Battler (or culprit x) could just order the servants to do that.
Notice the trick could be also used on the 1st twilight. It just require a servant who don't tell he/she lock the door because he/she didn't remember it or feared to be suspected.

I think Ryukishi had in mind that nobody than the culprit is responsible for the construction of the closed rooms. The rule 'non-culprit characters do not cooperate with the culprit' seems to prohibit it. Manga-Battler states to the rule: no secret agreements and accomplices, no covering up and giving alibis to the culprit. Also, in the blue truth he used Battler as a aid to let Rudolph in Natsuhi's room (they would not Rudolph in if he tried it ). Therefore the author kept the rule intact if the non-culprit character does not know the true intentions of the culprit.
In other words: The culprit can use innocent characters as aids if they think nothing is suspicous, that's the premise.
Thank you I did read the comments there, but I still didn't truly understand their logic. At least for me, it is not satisfactory, as one rule states that innocent people wouldn't help the culprit. To not mention such an event as you described it to the survivors, can, in my eyes, very much be considered "help", as the whole "locked room" issue about Natsuhi's room would be immediately resolved.

If I may: First of all, according to Will, all the hints to solve a mystery must be present. For Battler to have this secret talk with the servants is ...how to say...the way I see it, somewhat "random". The servants have all been together from the first twilight on, it says. This would mean that all(!) the servants equally kept quiet about Battler having been together with Natsuhi and Krauss.
This is very unsatisfactory: the servants wouldn't think there was anything to it for Battler to talk with Natsuhi and Krauss, to be asked to close the door and a bit later finding those two dead in a supposedly closed room....Noone of the servants would have taken a look inside the room, and all of them simply trusted Battler, even when they started to talk about the closed room. They all kept quiet. Now, if this isn't help, what is? It's a bit absurd. What's more, Rudolf would lie about having murdered Natsuhi when, from their perspective, there isn't even anyone else left but R/K and Battler, who would all know the truth. What would be the purpose of that? If I accept this solution, sadly, I cannot consider this good writing and I can only put it on the same level as a "Ryukishi made a mistake". Both are equally unsatisfactory.

Concerning Erika's blue truth, which seemed to be accepted in the post you linked, it is impossible to simply switch H/E/G for R/K/B, as the children should have confirmed their parents death. As Rudolf and Kyrie are standing outside, Battler would still need to lie about Rudolf's death. Also, if George was a culprit, he wouldn't die at the end of the game.

I read another answer, though, of course, this is equally open to discussion:
The very purpose of the ending of Bern's game seems to be to create a contradiction, or "logic error" as they would call it. Following the rules, Natsuhi cannot be murdered. There are three options though to solve it, the first one would be something along the lines of a ventriloquist. This would, imo, completely destroy the game, as with this, every character would gain the margin to lie if the true culprit simply took over their lines. The second one would be to say: the rules aren't stated in red, and Sayo herself says she wouldn't always follow the rules she herself set up.
The other one is that Bern never stated the number of people on the island. (I didn't confirm this for the VN). Bern only says that the characters appearing are the "usual ones", which could include Ange. This would explain some cryptic lines in the episodes: some that Ange says at the beginning or some sentences that Erika and Bern tell her. It would furthermore explain Bern guiding Ange through all the crime-scenes, George's interference when Ange is about to announce her presence in Bern's game, as well as the "time-loop", in which Ange says she is trapped.

For me this was quite convincing, as I always thought that Umineko was about remembering, confessing and repenting of people who already died, and for various reasons, I suspected that Ange wasn't as innocent as she is depicted. I believe that there are always two rounds of the same game, and that there is therefore an Ange that had chosen the wrong door which is overwritten by an Ange who makes the right choice. But of course, this is my take on it, and I might discard this as soon as someone finds some arguments against that. So feel free to disagree here

Last edited by Lila; 2017-02-28 at 16:31.
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Old 2017-03-01, 17:58   Link #35606
Dangi
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Hello, Im Dangi. I just wanted to say that I love the Idea of this forum.
Im currently participating on a similar "forum" like this, call Umineko Online or UO.
Umineko Online is an IRC type chatroom client. Selecting your character, emotion, location, etc. and talking to others as your RP, solve mysteries, or just relax. You can navigate across the various locations found in the VN. Allows the use of sound effects and music playback from the VN. Supports Red/Blue/Gold/Purple truths as of now. Higurashi characters are also available.
You can join UO here: http://uminekoonline.tumblr.com/
You can also see some examples of what we do here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1...cJFjrDhksQB0tw
Thats all. I would be very glad to see you there
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Old 2017-03-02, 04:50   Link #35607
Mali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lila View Post
Thank you I did read the comments there, but I still didn't truly understand their logic. At least for me, it is not satisfactory, as one rule states that innocent people wouldn't help the culprit. To not mention such an event as you described it to the survivors, can, in my eyes, very much be considered "help", as the whole "locked room" issue about Natsuhi's room would be immediately resolved.

If I may: First of all, according to Will, all the hints to solve a mystery must be present. For Battler to have this secret talk with the servants is ...how to say...the way I see it, somewhat "random". The servants have all been together from the first twilight on, it says. This would mean that all(!) the servants equally kept quiet about Battler having been together with Natsuhi and Krauss.
This is very unsatisfactory: the servants wouldn't think there was anything to it for Battler to talk with Natsuhi and Krauss, to be asked to close the door and a bit later finding those two dead in a supposedly closed room....Noone of the servants would have taken a look inside the room, and all of them simply trusted Battler, even when they started to talk about the closed room. They all kept quiet. Now, if this isn't help, what is? It's a bit absurd. What's more, Rudolf would lie about having murdered Natsuhi when, from their perspective, there isn't even anyone else left but R/K and Battler, who would all know the truth. What would be the purpose of that? If I accept this solution, sadly, I cannot consider this good writing and I can only put it on the same level as a "Ryukishi made a mistake". Both are equally unsatisfactory.

Concerning Erika's blue truth, which seemed to be accepted in the post you linked, it is impossible to simply switch H/E/G for R/K/B, as the children should have confirmed their parents death. As Rudolf and Kyrie are standing outside, Battler would still need to lie about Rudolf's death. Also, if George was a culprit, he wouldn't die at the end of the game.

I read another answer, though, of course, this is equally open to discussion:
The very purpose of the ending of Bern's game seems to be to create a contradiction, or "logic error" as they would call it. Following the rules, Natsuhi cannot be murdered. There are three options though to solve it, the first one would be something along the lines of a ventriloquist. This would, imo, completely destroy the game, as with this, every character would gain the margin to lie if the true culprit simply took over their lines. The second one would be to say: the rules aren't stated in red, and Sayo herself says she wouldn't always follow the rules she herself set up.
The other one is that Bern never stated the number of people on the island. (I didn't confirm this for the VN). Bern only says that the characters appearing are the "usual ones", which could include Ange. This would explain some cryptic lines in the episodes: some that Ange says at the beginning or some sentences that Erika and Bern tell her. It would furthermore explain Bern guiding Ange through all the crime-scenes, George's interference when Ange is about to announce her presence in Bern's game, as well as the "time-loop", in which Ange says she is trapped.

For me this was quite convincing, as I always thought that Umineko was about remembering, confessing and repenting of people who already died, and for various reasons, I suspected that Ange wasn't as innocent as she is depicted. I believe that there are always two rounds of the same game, and that there is therefore an Ange that had chosen the wrong door which is overwritten by an Ange who makes the right choice. But of course, this is my take on it, and I might discard this as soon as someone finds some arguments against that. So feel free to disagree here
Yeah I understand your problem. But aren't you supposed to fill the logic of your theories by yourself? Anybody can state his/her logic, but it's important to believe your logic, and it's up to you if you adapt a different way of thinking. It's the same issue Ange and Battler had, the only difference is they are characters of the story and they follow a liniar path to their goal because this VN (especially the manga) doesn't offer different paths, even I would consider this interesting Everything that was not shown to us must be filled by us.
So in my view, yeah it would be weird if the servants won't add a statement if they were locking the door. But if we apply Battler's chessboard thinking on this:
Why should the servants put theirself in a bad sitation? Actually no, I think everybody else would declare to this point they are the culprits (I do not mean Meta Battler and Beatrice).
Would they have the courage to say "Battler-sama said so."Maybe yes, Godha has the habit to slip something like that out sometimes.
Did Battler consired that risk? Yes, he lied about his parents. Nanjo also could checked every from the first twilight.

You should get the idea. Umineko's logic might be its strenght, but also its weakness?
Nanjo do help the culprits by not doing his duty of care. Weird for a doctor, isn't?
Absurd actions is a staple in this series, Higurashi is excused because of the syndrome.
But I'm happy about this because if not Umineko would repeated like Higurashi did I think.

For the ending: It could be that Ange saw an "illusion"or
exaggeration of that game. Bern stated the game stopped after the 3 survivors found dead Jessica. Not after the epilogue. It would be a unfair trick that the child culprit could kill the last 2 survivors to "gain a kill" to be declared as a killer.

About hints: Bern said she ommited tricks and motives, however the game has a view tricks like Battler letting Kyrie in the guesthouse or the hiding. But they were never stated in the rules... It's up to you to believe Bern's words.
Well Umineko want to enforce "detective novel writing rules", the game itself also said you don't need to unless it's a Knox-esque or Van Dine-esque mystery. You are free to use them to use on the first 4 games, I believe.
It's stated in red that Battler is not the culprit in all games, think about it, it was commented by Beatrice but uncommented by Bern. (maybe Asumu's dead baby Battler?)

About the rules: Yes I also thought that, too. I believe Bern wanted to lead the game in a certain way to inflict pain/irritate Battler/Ange (Battler killed Shannon and Ange saw her parents were murdering), so she left out the fact of Natsuhi as a murderer.
Bern is a game master for the challenge. I believe it too Ange was put on the gameboard (she had blood on her fingers)-at least the fragment HAS Ange in it.
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Old 2017-03-05, 10:38   Link #35608
Lila
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Originally Posted by Mali View Post
Yeah I understand your problem. But aren't you supposed to fill the logic of your theories by yourself? Anybody can state his/her logic, but it's important to believe your logic, and it's up to you if you adapt a different way of thinking. It's the same issue Ange and Battler had, the only difference is they are characters of the story and they follow a liniar path to their goal because this VN (especially the manga) doesn't offer different paths, even I would consider this interesting
This is quite philosophical. I agree with you, but I do think to truly believe in your own theory, you need to test it out, discuss it and see if there are counterarguments. This is pretty much the basis of positivism, for modern sciences.

Quote:
Everything that was not shown to us must be filled by us.
So in my view, yeah it would be weird if the servants won't add a statement if they were locking the door. But if we apply Battler's chessboard thinking on this:
Why should the servants put theirself in a bad sitation? Actually no, I think everybody else would declare to this point they are the culprits (I do not mean Meta Battler and Beatrice).
Would they have the courage to say "Battler-sama said so."Maybe yes, Godha has the habit to slip something like that out sometimes.
Did Battler consired that risk? Yes, he lied about his parents. Nanjo also could checked every from the first twilight.
Certainly, we need to fill in the missing blanks ourselves. It must be done in a way that follows the rules though, because if you don't, you may as well stop thinking about this altogether, as even solutions like "Rudolf can walk through walls" would be valid. Therefore it follows that our options to fill the holes are also limited by the hints we are given, as one rule states: "All the hints to solve a crime must be given".

I think I get your point: you want to say that as long as it is not against the rules, every logic is allowed. Even if it seems to be a bit weird at first. And Umineko itself addresses this quite often: to think outside of the usual margin.

Quote:
You should get the idea. Umineko's logic might be its strenght, but also its weakness?
Nanjo do help the culprits by not doing his duty of care. Weird for a doctor, isn't?
Absurd actions is a staple in this series, Higurashi is excused because of the syndrome.
But I'm happy about this because if not Umineko would repeated like Higurashi did I think.
I hope I got that right. My problem is not that certain decisions of the characters are "absurd". As long as they don't offend their characterization (as that too, is prohibited), every form of reasoning is allowed. Even the story says so. So even though I would be less than happy with the servants motivation to keep quiet, I couldn't say this solution is impossible.
But the reason why I still won't accept this is simply:
Rule: "People who are not the culprit don't aid the culprit." It doesn't matter if you help intentionally or unintentionally, the rule states that you cannot (!) help the culprit. And with this solution, Battler can only go on murdering exactly because he receives help, whatever the servants' motivation might be.

Quote:
For the ending: It could be that Ange saw an "illusion"or
exaggeration of that game. Bern stated the game stopped after the 3 survivors found dead Jessica. Not after the epilogue. It would be a unfair trick that the child culprit could kill the last 2 survivors to "gain a kill" to be declared as a killer.
That is true! This is refuting some of the arguments I mentioned earlier. Now I need to think about this again. Because with this, we could simply say: "the rules don't apply anymore, neither does the red about the seals of the mansion not breaking". But does this make sense? A "game" is a story. And what we see at the end is simply the ending of the story. I do believe that the ending you write must fit to the rules you are given.

So is my understanding correct that you want to say: the ending we saw is not the ending of the story but only a wrong one Ange saw? Where the rules don't apply?


Quote:

About hints: Bern said she ommited tricks and motives, however the game has a view tricks like Battler letting Kyrie in the guesthouse or the hiding. But they were never stated in the rules... It's up to you to believe Bern's words.
Well Umineko want to enforce "detective novel writing rules", the game itself also said you don't need to unless it's a Knox-esque or Van Dine-esque mystery. You are free to use them to use on the first 4 games, I believe.
Sorry, I must admit, I don't understand quite well what you want to say in the first paragraph
Yes, you are free to think the rules of Knox don't apply. But I don't follow it. Because 1.) The same can be said for the red truth - the only reason we are given to apply this is that Beato says we should trust her, so it's the same for her and the mystery-rules.
2) Umineko makes a point of this, saying that if you don't follow the rules of mystery, the game becomes a fantasy for you.
Therefore, I don't see why I should apply the rules only to game 1-4, especially when Dlanor and Will are fighting with red in Episode 5,6,7 and 8 as well, using their swords that personifies these mystery-rules.

But overall, this is a different matter and I haven't thought about this very much. Still, even if we assume they don't apply for Bern's game, the problem with the "help" still remains, doesn't it?

Quote:
It's stated in red that Battler is not the culprit in all games, think about it, it was commented by Beatrice but uncommented by Bern. (maybe Asumu's dead baby Battler?)
Beatrice indeed says she will allow Battler to be the culprit in Bern's game. So this would support your argument that the rules for Bern's and Beato's games are different. I have a completely different understanding of this "Baby-Battler" though.

Quote:
About the rules: Yes I also thought that, too. I believe Bern wanted to lead the game in a certain way to inflict pain/irritate Battler/Ange (Battler killed Shannon and Ange saw her parents were murdering), so she left out the fact of Natsuhi as a murderer.
Bern is a game master for the challenge. I believe it too Ange was put on the gameboard (she had blood on her fingers)-at least the fragment HAS Ange in it.
Will you discuss this with me? As I mentioned before, I will not say that this is correct, but nevertheless, I find it quite quite interesting: In the last game, Ange is given one final chance to get out of hell. Hell is Rokkenjima, a time-loop where the ending becomes the beginning. And that she is pushed out of the game-board, as she was not able to accept the truth.
Furthermore, there are some hints that Bern is indeed working AGAINST Ange, but FOR Battler.

Last edited by Lila; 2017-03-06 at 05:12.
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Old 2017-07-07, 12:18   Link #35609
Benkai_Debussy
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I've been reading a bunch of past replies in this thread and elsewhere (since most discussion about Umineko obviously occurred long before I read it), and I'm genuinely confused by people who don't seem to understand Yasu's motives (when they're already aware of the details, that is, because I can understand thinking her actions are bizarre if you believe the issue is just Battler not returning). I think that it's a flaw of Umineko's that the motive isn't made more clear, but it should make perfect sense once you understand it.

Like, this person has a mutilated body and suddenly discovered (while already in a romantic relationship with someone who constantly talks about wanting children!) that she's physically a different sex than she thought and was born from incestuous rape (not to mention the stuff about Genji and Kumasawa lying to her). That's some pretty heavy shit! It's not unreasonable at all (especially in 1980's Japan) for her to assume that her physical condition means that finding love will be virtually impossible, or even that George might flip his shit and murder her or something if he finds out (since this is kinda a thing that actually happens in real life). Even ignoring love, it means that she'll have to hide a very important part of "who she is" from other people, because of a (completely reasonable) fear of how they might react.

Basically you have someone with almost no social support system in a situation where they feel completely trapped and subhuman (both because of her body and the conditions of her conception). The bomb is very appealing, because she sees it as the only way that she can effectively preserve the legitimacy of her identities and romantic relationships. Post-bomb, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, Shannon was a normal girl who had just become engaged to George. If not for the bomb, she almost certainly would have never committed any murders, but the bomb is a particularly appealing form of mutual suicide for the aforementioned reasons (in addition to being instantaneous and likely painless). Even then, there's a big part of her that realizes this is crazy and wrong (this is expressed through Kanon's opposition to Beatrice).

As for why she doesn't just express her feelings and identity to Battler (and instead plans to take the roundabout method of pressuring him to solve the murders), I think the issue is that she both wants him to understand while also being terrified of him understanding (both because she's afraid of him rejecting or being disgusted by her, and because it might effectively mean erasing her other public faces). It's not perfectly rational, but I think it's very understandable to have both those feelings, even if they seem contradictory. Also, it is very debatable whether she could have actually carried out the "first-hand" murders (as opposed to the bomb, which I think she definitely could have done). It's one thing to write about smashing someone's face, and another thing entirely to actually do it.

Ultimately, you're not supposed to think her actions are entirely rational. Obviously the completely rational thing would be for her to realize that there's more to life than Rokkenjima and her current personal relationships. But I think it's entirely reasonable for someone in her situation (who has basically been confined to this small, limited environment their entire life) to have difficulty conceiving of anything more. The story even brings this up multiple times, like when Shannon says something along the lines of "To these fish, this tank is no different from the ocean" while in the aquarium with George. As far as she's conceived, Rokkenjima and the Ushiromiyas are her entire life.

edit: The worst thing is the people who act like Yasu had some self-pity complex, when her problems were actually really, really bad! It's like looking at transgender suicide rates and saying "heh clearly they just couldn't stop pitying themselves" (and Yasu's situation is arguably even worse than that in a variety of ways). It's an attitude that clearly seems to stem from a person having a sheltered, easy life themselves.
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Old 2017-07-07, 13:39   Link #35610
Jaden
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It's a fine motive for everything other than the bomb. That's just pure madness.

She was rich, after all. It would not have been much trouble to run away from everything, which I think would be my first idea in her shoes. If really driven to a corner, I could understand suicide and maybe disguising it as an accident.

Instead, she goes straight for the "kill everyone" option, and I'm sure she has an idea of what will happen to Ange, too. If she hated all those people, that would be one thing, but the story suggests the opposite. All her animosity is directed at herself. She seems to even have forgiven Kinzo.

That's why it's a bit hard to swallow, and why people looked for another culprit so long.
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Old 2017-08-31, 12:44   Link #35611
Lila
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Hallo everyone,

I wanted to ask just to make sure. In the manga of Episode 3 - 6 (Kuwadorian), Beato says in red that "there are no more than 18 people" BUT that is only the translation, because in the Japanese original she says: "there are no more than 19 people". So, is there something about the Japanese construction of "ijou" that I am not aware of or is that simply a translation "mistake"/"alteration"? Does anyone know?

Last edited by Lila; 2017-09-02 at 10:03.
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Old 2017-09-01, 09:33   Link #35612
Lila
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benkai_Debussy View Post
I've been reading a bunch of past replies in this thread and elsewhere (since most discussion about Umineko obviously occurred long before I read it), and I'm genuinely confused by people who don't seem to understand Yasu's motives (when they're already aware of the details, that is, because I can understand thinking her actions are bizarre if you believe the issue is just Battler not returning). I think that it's a flaw of Umineko's that the motive isn't made more clear, but it should make perfect sense once you understand it.
(Even though I am not following the Skanontrice-solution, I still want to reply )
I think in reality people have run amok for - objectively seen - "lesser" reasons. There are so many factors that influence a person that it's hard to say what impact certain events have on someone.
So I think it's not unthinkable that Sayo would commit mass-murder. But I'll add this: She blames Battler in Episode 4 - a person who as a 12- (!) year-old boy promised to come to the island - for the events on Rokkenjima. If it meant so much to her, she should have left the island and looked for him. Instead she chose mass-murder...
So no matter how you look at it, even if I won't call her motives unrealistic, to defend her is damn hard in my opinion. But even Sayo herself admits this at the end - that she was always finding excuses and was always the passive one, hoping for someone else to "save" her. And so she herself admits what you criticise here:

Quote:
edit: The worst thing is the people who act like Yasu had some self-pity complex, when her problems were actually really, really bad! It's like looking at transgender suicide rates and saying "heh clearly they just couldn't stop pitying themselves" (and Yasu's situation is arguably even worse than that in a variety of ways). It's an attitude that clearly seems to stem from a person having a sheltered, easy life themselves.
You know, there are many many people who aren't transgender who have big issues with their body as well. And there are many other reasons to be unhappy. Even in your so-called "sheltered life" you can become damn unhappy. That means as long as your situation isn't worse or at least not just as bad, you're not allowed to criticise her? You are defending a mass-murderer... Why would Battler, George, Maria and Jessica have to die? You try to reject the argument of "self-pity", but how? Sayo always waited for someone to "understand" her, without ever even TALKING to other people like George. She assumed that he would reject her, but she doesn't even know how he would react. Again: she skipped all that and went straight for mass-murder. How would someone be able to understand her if she keeps it all to herself? So I'm also one of those "worst people", I can't help but consider it self-pity. She cries and cries but NEVER tries to change anything about her situation. She herself admits that in Episode 8. And while she herself wants people to care about her and her situation, she not once asks herself if - for example - maybe George isn't as happy as he pretends to be either. She doesn't care for anyone else but herself.
This is my personal opinion, so of course, feel free to disagree, but I really dislike Sayo as a character, because she never tries to change anything on her own. That's why the alterations in Episode 8 manga are so good! She finally stops blaming everyone else and in the chapter "Umineko no naku koro ni", she actively influences the outcome of the story in a positive way.
(I'm saying all this without following the Shkanontrice-theory)

Last edited by Lila; 2017-09-02 at 09:58.
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Old 2017-09-06, 11:33   Link #35614
Lila
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That's "Rebirth" or (the other version) "Thank you for being born".
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Old 2017-09-07, 18:24   Link #35615
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Lila View Post
Hallo everyone,

I wanted to ask just to make sure. In the manga of Episode 3 - 6 (Kuwadorian), Beato says in red that "there are no more than 18 people" BUT that is only the translation, because in the Japanese original she says: "there are no more than 19 people". So, is there something about the Japanese construction of "ijou" that I am not aware of or is that simply a translation "mistake"/"alteration"? Does anyone know?
People who're knowledgeable in Japanese said that the sentence is:

この六軒島には19人以上の人間は存在しない!

Which would be litterally translated as:

"There are not 19 people or more"

but as this would feel weird in English everyone choses the

"there are no more than 18 people" translation as it means exactly the same (if the number of the people on the island isn't 19 or a number bigger than 19 it can be only a number in between 1 and 18 hence there are no more than 19 people).

I hope this helps!
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Old 2017-09-07, 20:51   Link #35616
Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lila View Post
That's "Rebirth" or (the other version) "Thank you for being born".
Are you sure that is the right name for the song?
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Old 2017-09-13, 18:33   Link #35617
WOH
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Umineko isn't a story I felt like I've fully managed to understand the scope of. I've read the visual novel twice, and while I do understand who the culprit is, why the murders were done, I can't say how. I'm no good at making theories or arguing against red/blue truth, and I want to believe in the fantasy side of things. I know it's a mystery, but it's much more comfortable for me to take it as fantasy anyway. I felt personally attacked in EP8, since I was definitely in the same position as some of the goats.

But, Umineko is an important story to me and it became a large part of who I am. I can't imagine my life without having read it. A lot of the characters have become like friends to me, and I fully want to believe in the miracle of magic, even if it's ridiculous. I love this visual novel so much, and the ending is glorious in ways I can't even describe. Many tears were shed. Hah.
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