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Old 2013-01-03, 18:23   Link #21
ZGoten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat®
So,... how would determinism calculate dreams?

Will I eat vanilla, or chocolate icecream as dessert?
make me scratch that itch or decide that it'll go down by itself?
Not determinsm would calculate those things, science would. Determinsim is just the principle that says it's possible to do so. Science, however, would probably start by analyzing your neural network when it comes to dreams. Whatever else happens after this, I obviously can't tell you. But there are certain causes and effects in your brain that can be observed and calculated even today. Science today can tell you what you will think a few seconds before you actually do so. Watch the above video, it's very interesting.

@willx

I agree with you mostly. It doesn't have an impact on one's personal life, but that mild distraction you are talking about is reason enough for me to bring it up. But in its extreme form, one has to wonder, if it would really be dangerous, or actually enlightening. The answer to that, we will never know, though, which again brings us to the mild distraction.
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Old 2013-01-03, 19:44   Link #22
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From my perspective, Determinism is really no different from Solipsism as a means of viewing the universe.

Both claims are unverifiable, and both rely on a particular set of arbitrary premises. Of course, if I put it that way, just about any metaphysical position would also apply, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. It all boils down to personal preference for a particular theory if it's better or not. There is no better or worse. Arguments can only be held when both parties have a set of shared concepts to discuss on equal terms, but when it comes to metaphysics, I'm afraid that there no limit to how reality can be deconstructed.
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Old 2013-01-04, 02:07   Link #23
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A being knowledgable enough to know the properties and positions of all particles in the universe at a given time would be able to exactly predict the future.
YouTube
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Old 2013-01-04, 02:33   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
From my perspective, Determinism is really no different from Solipsism as a means of viewing the universe.

Both claims are unverifiable, and both rely on a particular set of arbitrary premises. Of course, if I put it that way, just about any metaphysical position would also apply, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. It all boils down to personal preference for a particular theory if it's better or not. There is no better or worse. Arguments can only be held when both parties have a set of shared concepts to discuss on equal terms, but when it comes to metaphysics, I'm afraid that there no limit to how reality can be deconstructed.
I'll just have to stress this here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten
You ask me, what it matters to me, am I correct? You ask me what it means 'aside from pure, implacable philosophical curiosity'. The answer is nothing. I have a genuine interest in philosophy. Determinsim does not impact my life whatsoever, though. Still, I'm allowed to tackle those questions to satisfy my curiosity, am I not?
And I think I can understand what ZGoten is going through right now because I went through a similar phase my self, and that's not so long ago. And I can understand the "excitement" of these philosophical thinking. But as you can see, some people who have probably delved deeper into the society or working force view this (not "this" specific determinism, but philosophical matters in general) as "distraction" because indeed it brings little to no impact to their life.

For some people though, just thinking these matters in general can indeed be "fun", and I can relate to that. And I think that's the whole point of "Philosophy" (lit. Love to to think). But sadly it's because of this that Philosophy nowadays (seemingly) often gets the "Math treatment" of "it has no use in life so why do it".
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Old 2013-01-04, 03:41   Link #25
Qilin
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
For some people though, just thinking these matters in general can indeed be "fun", and I can relate to that. And I think that's the whole point of "Philosophy" (lit. Love to to think). But sadly it's because of this that Philosophy nowadays (seemingly) often gets the "Math treatment" of "it has no use in life so why do it".
Agreed. Philosophy, to begin with, is an exercise of playing around with ideas. It's a matter of being aware of the interactions of these ideas, deconstructing these into their component parts, and then rebuilding them into something else entirely. I can understand how this might not appeal to many people, but I feel that much of the prejudice is due to a simple misunderstanding of the nature of the field.

One thing I always like to say to people is that philosophy is not so much a body of knowledge as it is a method.
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Old 2013-01-04, 08:57   Link #26
willx
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^^

It's funny, there are ads in the subway that say, "What is the meaning of life Philosophy?" for a "School of Philosophy.". I think everyone needs to take basic Philo 101 courses for "Knowledge & Reality" and "Critical Thinking"

Anyways, my "mild distraction" point is similar to the "method of thinking" concept espoused above and is similar to how law school works. I have taken a bunch of philosophy courses before, am relatively critical about the universe and am (relatively) thoughtful and logical .. So what now? It's like asking a bunch of lawyers to sit around discussing historical case law for amusement.

My view: You've been trained to think, so think, rather than talk about thinking
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:31   Link #27
SaintessHeart
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Can a mod please change the title's spelling error? In the last 3 letters, "I" comes before "S", not the other way round. [/grammarnazi]

No, the existence of grammar nazis cannot be determined. They exist, and they do not.
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:36   Link #28
ZGoten
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There is actually another spelling error, so I did a terrible job there.
It does have nothing to do with grammar, though.^^
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:39   Link #29
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
There is actually another spelling error, so I did a terrible job there.
It does have nothing to do with grammar, though.^^
Yes. "Philosophy" is spelt wrongly.

Grammar is a structural set of rules for construction of words and sentences, so technically speaking, spelling errors should fall under grammar.
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:50   Link #30
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I'm afraid they don't. Grammar operates on the level of individual words in the case of morphology. Say if you falsely use the word dog instead of dogs in a contruction that requires the plural, you are missing the morpheme s, wich indicates it. The spelling of individual morphemes is entirely a matter of orthography.
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:56   Link #31
willx
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^ He is technically correct. The only case where there could be slight confusion of overlap is the misspelling of individual words that are homophones. This amused me to no end with regards to coding errors being "syntax errors" when they were clearly "spelling errors" .. yes I'm a nerd.
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Old 2013-01-04, 10:01   Link #32
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The only thing I believe is:

"Everything is affected by the other and that everything in the universe is connected with each other.".

No furthur explanation. It speaks of itself...
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Old 2013-01-04, 10:04   Link #33
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^^
Anyways, my "mild distraction" point is similar to the "method of thinking" concept espoused above and is similar to how law school works. I have taken a bunch of philosophy courses before, am relatively critical about the universe and am (relatively) thoughtful and logical .. So what now? It's like asking a bunch of lawyers to sit around discussing historical case law for amusement.

My view: You've been trained to think, so think, rather than talk about thinking
Hm? But it's undeniable that it has its applications in the social sciences such particularly psychology and political science, and the liberal arts. When it comes to dissecting human motives, behavior, and ideologies, the ability to pick apart ideas is pretty useful to have. It is particularly handy in debates.

But really, does it have to have a practical application in the first place? Is there simply no merit in doing it for its own sake? Like doing a crossword puzzle or a challenging math problem?
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:19   Link #34
Nightbat®
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Not determinsm would calculate those things, science would. Determinsim is just the principle that says it's possible to do so. Science, however, would probably start by analyzing your neural network when it comes to dreams. Whatever else happens after this, I obviously can't tell you. But there are certain causes and effects in your brain that can be observed and calculated even today. Science today can tell you what you will think a few seconds before you actually do so. Watch the above video, it's very interesting.
If determinism states that every event is 'set in stone' then decisions or even illogical brainactivity could be calculated beforehand

The problem here is with for instance my 'dessert' example:
I could choose chocolate over vanilla, because my brain desires it more
but I could decide against it because i want to savour the chocolate on a later time

For dreams, you can not predict how psychological you're impacted by them beforehand
Will your brain create more signals, will it retain more endorfines, release more adrenalin
will it make you wake up rested or restless,
And this is only 'medical' stuff, not even the freaky stuff your imagination conjures up during sleep


You can calculate untill the earth is a square, you're not gonna fine logic there


Determinism is from my PoV a pretty nihilistic idea of life
had humanity adhered to this way of thinking, we would have never evolved beyond the 'live/breed/die' state
since any effort towards 'more' would be a futile
we wouldn't have started farming, taming animals, create machinery
(and why would we, since everything would happen by itself anyway)
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Old 2013-01-04, 20:02   Link #35
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
If determinism states that every event is 'set in stone' then decisions or even illogical brainactivity could be calculated beforehand

The problem here is with for instance my 'dessert' example:
I could choose chocolate over vanilla, because my brain desires it more
but I could decide against it because i want to savour the chocolate on a later time
Watch the link in OPs very first post. What you think is "free will" or whim might very well be the effects of an underlying, calculable expressions, the effects of your upbringings and past behaviours. Just because we practically can't do it yet, due to the many factors involved doesn't mean it's not possible. If you watch PsychoPass, it's the similar principle used in Sibyl System.

Since I study Earth Sciences, I can give you another example with Earthquakes. Earthquakes are, as far as practicality is concerned, unpredictable. However, in 'theory', if we can know for sure the position of all the elements in the crust how they interact with each other, then (again, in 'theory') we could predict earthquakes. But, to acquire such information would require a huge effort that which renders this impractical, and thus 'impossible'.

Like how Einstein's equations allows for the existence of time machines but for all intents and purposes, an 'impossibility' due to the sheer impracticality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
Determinism is from my PoV a pretty nihilistic idea of life
had humanity adhered to this way of thinking, we would have never evolved beyond the 'live/breed/die' state
since any effort towards 'more' would be a futile
we wouldn't have started farming, taming animals, create machinery
(and why would we, since everything would happen by itself anyway)
That is not the Determinism ZGoten speaks of. He was more talking about "Causality" which in itself is a form/part of Determinism.
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Old 2013-01-05, 12:17   Link #36
ZGoten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
Determinism is from my PoV a pretty nihilistic idea of life
had humanity adhered to this way of thinking, we would have never evolved beyond the 'live/breed/die' state
since any effort towards 'more' would be a futile
we wouldn't have started farming, taming animals, create machinery
(and why would we, since everything would happen by itself anyway)
That's how you might have lived your life in that case, but definitely not me and not the rest of the world either. I've heard this argument many times and it's a pretty weak one. Even if humanity accepted the idea that none of what we do impacts anything because it's not actually we who are doing things because individual "Is" and "Yous" principally don't exist, we would just act as if that weren't the case, because we can't ever know where the rails under our feet lead us anyway. Determinism can never affect our lives directly, because we can never make practical use of its core idea. It can only affect us indirectly by implying other truths about reality.

/edit: Thanks to whoever corrected the title!
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Last edited by ZGoten; 2013-01-05 at 12:56.
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Old 2013-01-05, 19:01   Link #37
ChainLegacy
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I used to be pretty confident in determinism, however, I find myself becoming an agnostic on the subject. The principle seems logical on the surface, but with recent advances in science seeming to suggest truly random and chaotic elements exist on a micro level of the universe, I am not so sure. Whether or not we live in a deterministic universe, the complexity is at such a grand and incomprehensible scale that free will, for all practical purposes, does exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't know about determinism, but if we're talking about worldview, then I do believe in the Biblical God, a being who knows and can and does influence the past, present, and future.

Based on that, I don't believe any being other than God is capable of absolute free will, but I do believe in free will set within God's boundaries/limitations.
If God/gods/etc know the future, does that not preclude free will from existing? What boundaries/limitations could free will exist within if he knows the future? No matter what, your decisions would be predetermined in this scenario.
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Old 2013-01-05, 21:31   Link #38
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
If God/gods/etc know the future, does that not preclude free will from existing? boundaries/limitations could free will exist within if he knows the future? No matter what, your decisions would be predetermined in this scenario.
Key words: your decisions. God foreknowing the decisions you make doesn't change the fact that you made those decisions.
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Old 2013-01-05, 22:06   Link #39
ChainLegacy
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Key words: your decisions. God foreknowing the decisions you make doesn't change the fact that you made those decisions.
I disagree, but I'll just state my stance as I don't seek to make you change your mind or anything. The way I see it: if some being knows (with certainty) you will make decisions, you never had a choice in the first place because it is already destined to occur.
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Old 2013-01-05, 22:31   Link #40
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I disagree
That's your choice. Oh, but I knew you would, with certainty. So maybe it wasn't your choice.
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