[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for partial idea:

1) 11/25 is Ange's real birth date, and that falls too close after Asumu's death. Rudolf & Kyrie have been lying about it, stating it as something more acceptable.
2) Rudolf, Nanjo, and Kumasawa were teaming up in a scheme that involved faking his own death.
3) That scheme did involve the letter from "Beatrice", but not Rudolf's actual death.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for partial idea:

1) 11/25 is Ange's real birth date, and that falls too close after Asumu's death. Rudolf & Kyrie have been lying about it, stating it as something more acceptable.
2) Rudolf, Nanjo, and Kumasawa were teaming up in a scheme that involved faking his own death.
3) That scheme did involve the letter from "Beatrice", but not Rudolf's actual death.

Spoiler for Response:

1) After talking about how his birthday was July 15th Battler said that he didn't know anyone else with the birthday 11/25. Eva, Nanjo and Jessica also confirmed no one on the island had that birthday either.
2) Rudolf dies early on a lot so I wouldn't doubt it. Seriously the guy doesn't even make it past the 4th twilight, and that's if he's lucky XD

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for response to Marion:

Battler thinks Ange's birthdate was several months later than it really is. That's why I refered to it as her real birthdate and that Rudolf and Kyrie were lying.

[Hareoic]

Spoiler for Longshot theory about Rosa and the chapel:

Suppose it was sleeping drugs that made it possible for the culprit to murder everyone in the chapel. They might need a scapegoat if they couldn't pull off blaming it on the witch. Thus, they let Rosa go and she forgot it as though it were a dream.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for response to Marion:

Battler thinks Ange's birthdate was several months later than it really is. That's why I refered to it as her real birthdate and that Rudolf and Kyrie were lying.

That would be a little...unnecessary.

Spoiler for Response:

Battler implies during an explanation of his sin (or what he thought it was) that Ange was born before Asumu died. She was kept a secret until Asumu died and Rudolf remarried. I don't see any purpose for lying about Ange's real birthday, because I don't think she would go along with a fake birthday party, considering that one scene during the Maria Diary flashbacks details Battler coming to one of her birthday celebrations.

[Ttak]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Spoiler for Longshot theory about Rosa and the chapel:

Suppose it was sleeping drugs that made it possible for the culprit to murder everyone in the chapel. They might need a scapegoat if they couldn't pull off blaming it on the witch. Thus, they let Rosa go and she forgot it as though it were a dream.

But we can say too that Rosa wasn't on the chapel. I don't trust too much on that scene, specially because of everyone acknowledging Beatrice. At least the culprit and the six parents were there at the time of the murders and, as said before, the theory about a trap X wasn't denied with the red text. The culprit could've given the letter to Maria but with a fake key, then, after closing the chapel with the real key, delivered the real envelope + key to Maria.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Dug some things back up because I found them rather intriguing:

Spoiler for Beatrice's identity as relayed by Bernkastel (not related to the current discussion about the chapel):

Playing back through the first episode's hidden tea party, Bernkastel mentioned that Beatrice is "not necessarily 'one individual woman'", that she is "not some human", and that "her existence is a personification of the rules of this world." If her words at this point can be trusted, this opens up the possibility of Beatrice being an abstract concept, such as an emotion or even a physical event (the name of the typhoon).

Then, in Bernkastel's Letter, she mentions that what makes the "board" so difficult to understand is that it constantly changes shape. I'm guessing it might mean that the methods, motives, and culprits change from Episode to Episode (again, if she can be trusted at this point).

But more important than that was that the letter discussed Rule X, Y, and Z of Umineko. My question is this: Has anybody figured out what these rules might be by now?

However there are many red truths said by Beatrice that start with "I". If Beatrice is a mere concept, how could she be the subject of anything? Who is the model of the Beatrice's painting? Who is the person that wrote the message bottles, the letters with the bank acount, and that thing on Maria's diary? Who's the person that Battler has seen?

I don't thin that Beatrice is a mere concept, rather, it's many persons or things at the same time.

Originally Posted by Alaya

My theory is that

After the children went to sleep, the culprit drug six victims with slow acting sleeping drugs or poison and ask those six people to the chapel. He/she also show him/herself as Beatrice to Maria and ask her to come along, which Maria would be very likely to comply. Then he/she asked Maria to open the Chapel, tell her to wait outside and kill the 6 victims after the drug/poison take effect inside the chapel. After decorating the scenes, he/she told Maria to lock the door and sent her to bed. He/she might told Maria that there will be surprise party tomorrow and the adults are preparing the party inside. Or can be as straight forward as telling Maria those six were chosen as a first twilight.

After Maria went to bed, the culprit came back and decorate the front door.

EDIT: For rule X: The killing in the Rokkenjima proceed following what was written on the epitaph of the witch.

That doesn't work. Since the time Beatrice entrusted the letter to Maria till the time Rosa opened it the next day, the key didn't pass through anyone's hands. Maria's hands are no exception.

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Well, it does kinda say they were killed IN the chapel, and that the killer was inside at that time.
礼拝堂での６人の殺害時、犯人は礼拝堂内にいたわ!
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

My thinking was, Lambda says this to try and show that Battler's Trap theories were wrong. Why is it wrong? She never said that there was no trap used, just that, the killer was in the chapel at the same time the trap went off. We'll use the little bomb theory as an example, and use "Beatrice" as a variable for the killer:
Beatrice lures everyone to the dining hall, and gives them a meal laced with, everyone together now, little bombs. Then, after a few minutes to allow the bombs to nestle in the stomach (imagine how gruesome it'd been if they went off in the mouth or throat...), Beatrice then pushes the detonator, secretly. Trap X goes off, and kills the 6, but at the same time the killer was in the chapel (but not the same room!).

Also, I'd like to point out, as always, that the bodies were not wet. If we assume they were killed somewhere other than the chapel, and transported, there's a high possibility the corpses would have been soaking wet due to the storm. Without body-heat or some external heat source, their clothes would probably still have been soggy, which is never mentioned. So it's likely the victims came in of their own accord, with umbrellas, which were then disposed of by the criminal.

The mini bomb theory is really ridiculous. Of course we haven't seen the cuts in the stomach, but there's no way you can mistake a cut for an internal explosion. There wouldn't be a clean cut if it was a bomb and you'd see signs of burnings.

But the real point is this theory doesn't explain anything and it is unneeded. Even if you somehow manage to explain how the Killer wasn't in the same room, so what? What do you accomplish with that? This isn't your usual closed room with the key inside it.

[Nih]

Just a note: if we assume that the adults were incapacitated some place other than the chapel and the culprit wanted to make it look like the murders occured inside, then I think they would be smart enough to cover them up with something. I have my doubts about the whole carrying the bodies thing, but the soaking clothes point is rather moot, imo.

P.S. Rephrased it so it makes some sense =p

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The mini bomb theory is really ridiculous. Of course we haven't seen the cuts in the stomach, but there's no way you can mistake a cut for an internal explosion. There wouldn't be a clean cut if it was a bomb and you'd see signs of burnings.

But the real point is this theory doesn't explain anything and it is unneeded. Even if you somehow manage to explain how the Killer wasn't in the same room, so what? What do you accomplish with that? This isn't your usual closed room with the key inside it.

I only used the small bomb theory as an example, not that I necessarily believed in it.
Perhaps the entire stomachs were removed? We won't know until we get to see the manga/anime scene.

And the point is that Lambda tried to do away with Trap theories by saying the killer was in the chapel. That doesn't do away with anything, it just says the killer was in the chapel when the others died. It could still have been a trap. And my point about maybe the different room of the chapel is that the victims might not even have realized who set off the trap, since they weren't in the exact same room.

And Closed Rooms don't necessarily have to have a key in them. Often times it's just that it's locked, and can only be locked from the inside. John Dickson Carr's the Hollow Man for example, the murder happens in a room that somebody is observing, and they see the killer go in, but not out. All evidence showed that the only way the killer could have escaped was from the door. That makes it a closed room.

[Jan-Poo]

The point is... in the usual closed room shown in umineko, there is a dead body inside a room with the only key to the room inside it. This mean if you manage to explain how the killer could have killed the person from outside (or with a trap), you have solved the riddle.

But the chapel closed room is a completely different kind of closed room. Your theories should be aimed to solve the riddle, a theory that doesn't solve the riddle is pointless. And imagining a trap or a way for the killer to kill while being outside this room in this particular case do not solve this riddle. You still haven't explained how this was possible by human means with those.

[Nih]

It's just that all the holes in Beato's red text have been exposed, so it's her move Which is why there's not much else to do now but nitpick details like this, since you could imagine a hundred ways the actual killings were carried out in with this little info.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But the real point is this theory doesn't explain anything and it is unneeded. Even if you somehow manage to explain how the Killer wasn't in the same room, so what? What do you accomplish with that? This isn't your usual closed room with the key inside it.

You didn't read Battler's entire theory. He said that the chapel's door was opened from the beginning, the adults went in and locked it from the inside, then they were killed by the trap. No key was needed.

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

You didn't read Battler's entire theory. He said that the chapel's door was opened from the beginning, the adults went in and locked it from the inside, then they were killed by the trap. No key was needed.

Exactly, though your order's probably just a hair off. The door was open, the adults went in, the door was probably closed but not locked. The adults were killed by the trap, and then the killer locked the door on his/her way out.

[Nih]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by "the door was closed but not locked", do you mean to say that the door somehow prevented them from escaping without being locked? Or if the trap killed them before they could try escape, what's the relevance of the door being closed?

[Squirrellord]

Well, it's stormin' like a summa'bitch outside, and you go into a place. What's the last person who comes in going to do? Close the door ._.

[Nih]

lol ok then.

[maximilianjenus]

That's why lambda said that the killer was also inside, to avoid the necesity of a trap,the killer was there, it might have been genji who serverd them some stomach cuts , then he went out adn got his lover rosa to lock the door after midnight.

[Nih]

Seems plausible to me. I don't think Rosa with a knife VS Eva with feet would work out in Rosa's favor.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

That's why lambda said that the killer was also inside, to avoid the necesity of a trap,the killer was there, it might have been genji who serverd them some stomach cuts , then he went out adn got his lover rosa to lock the door after midnight.

"Lover"? Wow...Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Nih

Seems plausible to me. I don't think Rosa with a knife VS Eva with feet would work out in Rosa's favor.

If Rosa had a winchester though then Eva's feet wouldn't mean a damn if she got her stomach shot up.