AnimeSuki Forums

SaintessHeart · 2012-03-20, 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Erm. That last one quite escapes me. How did secularism cause the fall of the USSR?

My mistake; was thinking of crony succession...intended to write that secularism had little or nothing to do with US coming out on top of the Cold War. Having LWS.

Ithekro · 2012-03-20, 00:04

The old "Godless Commies" business, I think.

It seems more that we just managed to outspend them (or more accurately, force them to try to outspend us to the point where their economic and socio-political system could no longer afford to be in a Cold War with the USA). Gorbichev tried to make the system hold on even at the cost of bowing out of the Cold War, but it the strain had been too much by then, and some of the satelite states and client states wanted out.

Kokukirin · 2012-03-20, 00:27

Quote:

I strongly disagree with that view. I don't see how anyone could equate an unborn child with anyone else, nor why an unborn child's rights (if you want to give them any) should take priority over the mother's. From a practical standpoint, the mother should always take priority. We can't have limitless orphans, and children who are orphaned are at a distinct disadvantage compared to children raised by a loving family. Society stands nothing to gain from that; it can't support it. The dialogue that I prefer to have is that I understand their beliefs and concerns, but from a practical standpoint, abortion is for the better. In a perfect world it would not happen or even be necessary, but this is not a perfect world.

I don't think banning some of the abortion practice is necessarily "making decisions for the woman". In the abortion debate, there are two rights in conflict of each other. The unborn child, however, has absolutely no ability to protect its own rights. And therefore the protection of its right must come from another body, in this case from laws and regulations. The question is really where do we draw the line, and under which situations the rights of one party is more important. It is very much up to debate.

I also cannot agree with your idea that no abortion necessarily lead to unsustainable number of orphans. For one, there is a chance that the parents who might have aborted the child may still choose to raise him if abortion is not an option. Education and contraception practices already significantly reduce the need of abortion. The ever-lower birth rate in developed countries should increase adoption. Indeed the number of children in public foster care in US has steadily decreased over the years, from over 130k in 2002 to 114k in 2009. A number that is far from a serious burden for the US.

Personally I don't have a strong opinion on this. I am leaning towards legalizing abortion of most forms, excepting late term when the fetus has developed past a certain point and the operation is also riskier.

Ledgem · 2012-03-20, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

I don't think banning some of the abortion practice is necessarily "making decisions for the woman". In the abortion debate, there are two rights in conflict of each other. The unborn child, however, has absolutely no ability to protect its own rights. And therefore the protection of its right must come from another body, in this case from laws and regulations. The question is really where do we draw the line, and under which situations the rights of one party is more important. It is very much up to debate.

I think that the question is, who is deserving of rights? My personal opinion is that the unborn child is, up until the late stages, a bundle of cells with the potential to become a human. In many ways, they are not so different from a cancer (and there are some conditions where implantation goes wrong and essentially is a cancer). It seems ridiculous to me to proclaim that such cells should be assigned rights. What's next - will I have to petition a court when I want to surgically remove a tumor growing within my body?

We don't even need to get into a rights discussion, though. The mother is alive and cognizant, capable of feeling and thinking. The unborn child, whether you believe them to be alive or not, is unfeeling, unthinking, and unaware of its existence (up until late stages of development). It would not care if it were aborted. Should something like that really be given priority, or even equal footing, with the mother?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

I also cannot agree with your idea that no abortion necessarily lead to unsustainable number of orphans. For one, there is a chance that the parents who might have aborted the child may still choose to raise him if abortion is not an option. Education and contraception practices already significantly reduce the need of abortion. The ever-lower birth rate in developed countries should increase adoption.

Teen pregnancies in the United States have been decreasing, but they're still well elevated among the teen pregnancies in other western nations. This is still a very real issue.

"There is still a chance that the parents who might have aborted the child will choose to raise him" - true, there's always that chance. But having a child is a major burden. If the people having the child are not prepared, this will greatly limit their opportunities in life. If they're in high school, for example, how much harder will it be for them to go to college? If they're in college, will it impair their ability to finish, or go even farther? I don't have any statistics, but I would not be surprised if the majority of young parents who accidentally have a child end up stuck in the lower socioeconomic status bracket of society... because of their child.

"Education and contraception practices decreased the need for abortion" - in theory it would, yes. And this is where I also don't understand the Republican/religious right mindset. These people preach abstinence (which statistically has been proven ineffective) and seem anti-contraception. Throw in the desire to ban abortion and it's like they're setting people up to have children when they're not ready.

"Lower birth rate should increase adoption" - FALSE. Do you know why birth rates are declining? Because it's frickin' expensive to raise a child! The latest estimate that I heard is that it costs $250,000 to raise a child from ages 1-18. In other words, that number doesn't even account for college. If a parent wants to skimp on their kid then I'm sure the cost could be decreased, but that parent isn't exactly setting their child up for success in doing so. And isn't society better off when children are raised for success?

Vexx · 2012-03-20, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

I don't think banning some of the abortion practice is necessarily "making decisions for the woman". In the abortion debate, there are two rights in conflict of each other. The unborn child,

I stopped the quote right there because using the term "unborn child" indicates a bias in the commentary, just as "Pro-life" is an inaccurate description of those that oppose abortion. You also have not established that a mass of fetal cells has a "right". Its just an assertion with no validation. It could just as easily be defined as an initial stage of male and female DNA combining, it certainly has no independent viability.

MeoTwister5 · 2012-03-20, 01:03

Some people hold that once the central nervous starts to work, that's when consciousness begins.

If we were speaking of nerve and brain cell activity, that nervous system activity validates any degree of brain activity of conscious thought and appreciation, then the fetus' brain activity realistically starts by the 5th week age of gestation, making that cutoff time scientifically speaking.

But again how would you define the existence of consciousness? The capacity for self-awareness is not something automatically observed; the organism in question needs to be able to communicate in some form to the rest of humanity that it has developed self-awareness. We can't exactly assume that the moment the CNS is formed the consciousness of the fetus has already started.

synaesthetic · 2012-03-20, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Some people hold that once the central nervous starts to work, that's when consciousness begins.

If we were speaking of nerve and brain cell activity, that nervous system activity validates any degree of brain activity of conscious thought and appreciation, then the fetus' brain activity realistically starts by the 5th week age of gestation, making that cutoff time scientifically speaking.

But again how would you define the existence of consciousness? The capacity for self-awareness is not something automatically observed; the organism in question needs to be able to communicate in some form to the rest of humanity that it has developed self-awareness. We can't exactly assume that the moment the CNS is formed the consciousness of the fetus has already started.

The pro-life movement isn't interested in scientific definitions to begin with, so even if we were to define an arbitrary point in time they would simply reject it out of hand.

Vexx · 2012-03-20, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Some people hold that once the central nervous starts to work, that's when consciousness begins.

If we were speaking of nerve and brain cell activity, that nervous system activity validates any degree of brain activity of conscious thought and appreciation, then the fetus' brain activity realistically starts by the 5th week age of gestation, making that cutoff time scientifically speaking.

But again how would you define the existence of consciousness? The capacity for self-awareness is not something automatically observed; the organism in question needs to be able to communicate in some form to the rest of humanity that it has developed self-awareness. We can't exactly assume that the moment the CNS is formed the consciousness of the fetus has already started.

Yeah, now you're considering the topic like I do... which means you're thinking differently than people who operate with unchallengeable axioms (articles of faith) irrespective of the information around them.

Kokukirin · 2012-03-20, 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

I stopped the quote right there because using the term "unborn child" indicates a bias in the commentary, just as "Pro-life" is an inaccurate description of those that oppose abortion. You also have not established that a mass of fetal cells has a "right". Its just an assertion with no validation. It could just as easily be defined as an initial stage of male and female DNA combining, it certainly has no independent viability.

I used unborn child because it was the term Ledgem used. Though when I was writing my reply, I was thinking a a fetus that has past certain stage of development. A chump of cells with no neuro-activities cannot really qualify as a human, and therefore does not enjoy the same right that a human does. But at certain point, I think the right for the fetus/unborn child to live has to be put into serious consideration. Though I don't really have a opinion of where that line should be.

Ithekro · 2012-03-20, 01:25

From what I recall, there already is a line. Roe vs Wade is still in effect after all.

SaintessHeart · 2012-03-20, 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The old "Godless Commies" business, I think.

It seems more that we just managed to outspend them (or more accurately, force them to try to outspend us to the point where their economic and socio-political system could no longer afford to be in a Cold War with the USA). Gorbichev tried to make the system hold on even at the cost of bowing out of the Cold War, but it the strain had been too much by then, and some of the satelite states and client states wanted out.

They paid their satellite states to the death of themselves.....did you see how much they put into "reconstructing" Vietnam?

Meanwhile, the American arm makers are laughing their way to the bank when the rest of SEA started buying arms in bulk just in case Vietnam starting fighting southward. If it wasn't China that went South on them first, we would have been in serious trouble.

ganbaru · 2012-03-20, 05:35

Of diapers and drugs, Iran's trouble paying bills
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82J05N20120320

"Cruel" gunman filmed French school carnage
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82I07N20120320

Edit: Outrage prompts U.S. investigation of Florida teen killing
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82I17520120320
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/internatio...0_accueil_POS4
So, because of this ''Stand your ground'' law, this guy chase and pursued a young unarmed black than walked under the rain and shoot him in the back in ''self-defence'' and getting away with it. Even without taking the racial factor into acount, that's so wrong I don't know by what to start.

Vexx · 2012-03-20, 07:52

After a week of the airwaves in the US being buried in the Afghan soldier's life story who allegedly murdered 16 civilians in their homes, mostly women and children -- *one* US news organization decides to find out about the victims. :P Naturally, it isn't Fox or any of the corporate commercial news pieces.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/148974...ooting-rampage

Spoiler for Uh, yeah, the 16 victims were people were in their homes spending the last few minutes of their lives being terrorized by the perpetrator.:

Afghans say they're so inured to civilians killed in wars that they bury their dead and move on. That's not so easy for Muhammad Wazir. He lost his mother, his wife, a sister-in-law, a brother, a nephew, his four daughters and two of his sons in last week's mass shooting in two villages.
"My little boy, Habib Shah, is the only one left alive, and I love him very much," says Wazir.
The boy cried next to his father as Wazir spoke by cellphone. The 4-year-old is his favorite, Wazir says, and that's why he took the boy as he traveled to the eastern side of Kandahar province last week. While they were away, tragedy struck their tiny mud brick village in Panjwai district, southwest of Kandahar City.

Like anyone, I wanted my children to be doctors, engineers — important people. All my dreams are buried under a pile of dust now.

- Muhammad Wazir

Public records and military sources have provided a clearer portrait of the man who allegedly slaughtered 16 people in the night. U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales had financial troubles. He played football in high school. His war buddies thought he was cool under fire. His neighbors liked him. His wife kept a blog. Bales had sustained previous injuries that might trigger post-traumatic stress disorder.
Afghanistan — especially in rural villages — keeps few records of births and deaths. Most of the victims were young and illiterate and left only stunned relatives and friends behind. Panjwai district was dangerous before the massacre and is now considered off-limits to foreign and even Afghan journalists.
Wazir, 35, says he can hardly describe the pain of returning home to find his entire family gone.
"As a parent, you hate to see even your child's little finger hurt. Imagine losing 11 members of your family at once?" he says.
His oldest boy, Ismatullah, had just started to grow soft whiskers when he died. At 14, he was tall and strong, turning handsome, his father says. He was in elementary school about five years ago when fighting erupted and all the schools closed. Like other boys in the village, Ismatullah joined his father in the fields, as their district became one of the biggest killing fields of the Afghan war.

Every day after prayers and breakfast, Ismatullah worked with his father in the fields until noon. Then he could go play, Wazir says. The teenager especially liked an Afghan game called Tup Danda — a bit like baseball.
Faizullah, the next oldest, was about 8 when he died. Wazir admits the boy was a little spoiled, with no school to attend and still too young for farm work. Faizullah loved to ride a bicycle around the village, and whenever he could, he would grab his father's cellphone to play the games on it.
Also shot, stabbed and burned was Wazir's brother, Akhtar. He was about 21 years old and had just married. He had no children yet.
"Like anyone, I wanted my children to be doctors, engineers — important people. All my dreams are buried under a pile of dust now," Wazir says.
Men from Kandahar don't traditionally talk about their wives or daughters in public, and certainly not to the media. Wazir's daughters were 12, 8, 3 and 2 years old. Their names were Massoma, Farida, Palwasha and Bibya. His 60-year-old mother, Shakarina, also was killed, along with his wife, Zahra.

"I loved them all like they were parts of my body," Wazir says. "I miss all of them terribly."
Five other men and women were killed in a different village; NPR could not reach family members to confirm the victims' names. Five survivors were receiving treatment at the U.S. military hospital at Kandahar Airfield.

GundamFan0083 · 2012-03-20, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Small note : a look at history will tell one that US "won" the Cold War by governance, trade and opportunities of human freedom.

Or rather, the USSR fell thanks to mismanagement, corruption and secularism.

In other words, Marxian-socialism caused the fall of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Police Handcuff NBC Chicago Photojournalist

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local...143105086.html

This was just "brilliant" on the part of the cop:

"Your First Amendment rights can be terminated if you're creating a scene or whatever," the officer said.

Father's outrage as TSA subjects his wheelchair-bound three-year-old son to humiliating search... on his way to Disney

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Chicago.html

Jaden · 2012-03-20, 11:40

Dude arrested and prosecuted for malicious tweets.

Heh heh, twitterpolice in action...only in America. Wait... it's in the UK??

Spoiler for the tweets in question:

To be fair, the dude is a douche and got what he deserved, but I don't think this kinda thing is a matter for the police.

Xellos-_^ · 2012-03-20, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaden

Dude arrested and prosecuted for malicious tweets.

Heh heh, twitterpolice in action...only in America. Wait... it's in the UK??

Spoiler for the tweets in question:

To be fair, the dude is a douche and got what he deserved, but I don't think this kinda thing is a matter for the police.

first time a troll has been arrest and charge for being a troll.

Paranoid Android · 2012-03-20, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

first time a troll has been arrest and charge for being a troll.

Everybody's so control-over-speech crazy nowadays. Is being PRC the new fad?

Vexx · 2012-03-20, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Police Handcuff NBC Chicago Photojournalist

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local...143105086.html

This was just "brilliant" on the part of the cop:

"Your First Amendment rights can be terminated if you're creating a scene or whatever," the officer said.

Someone needs to slap the cop repeatedly until all the stupid falls out. I hope I don't have to explain why...

Quote:

Father's outrage as TSA subjects his wheelchair-bound three-year-old son to humiliating search... on his way to Disney

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Chicago.html

The interesting thing is that the TSA has recently claimed they no longer do this with small children and the very elderly... either there's a lot of fine print, someone is stupid, someone is lying ... or all the above.

TSA: bringing you pretend security theater since 2001, a production of the Homeland Insecurity Administration

Ithekro · 2012-03-20, 13:42

TSA did that to my grandfather. He was in a wheelchair at 88. But that was 2001 or maybe early 2002.

andyjay729 · 2012-03-20, 14:27

Big earthquake in Mexico City.

2012-03-20, 00:04	Link #20282
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	The old "Godless Commies" business, I think. It seems more that we just managed to outspend them (or more accurately, force them to try to outspend us to the point where their economic and socio-political system could no longer afford to be in a Cold War with the USA). Gorbichev tried to make the system hold on even at the cost of bowing out of the Cold War, but it the strain had been too much by then, and some of the satelite states and client states wanted out. __________________

2012-03-20, 01:03	Link #20286
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	Some people hold that once the central nervous starts to work, that's when consciousness begins. If we were speaking of nerve and brain cell activity, that nervous system activity validates any degree of brain activity of conscious thought and appreciation, then the fetus' brain activity realistically starts by the 5th week age of gestation, making that cutoff time scientifically speaking. But again how would you define the existence of consciousness? The capacity for self-awareness is not something automatically observed; the organism in question needs to be able to communicate in some form to the rest of humanity that it has developed self-awareness. We can't exactly assume that the moment the CNS is formed the consciousness of the fetus has already started. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2012-03-20, 01:25	Link #20290
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	From what I recall, there already is a line. Roe vs Wade is still in effect after all. __________________

2012-03-20, 05:35	Link #20292
ganbaru books-eater youkai Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity	Of diapers and drugs, Iran's trouble paying bills http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82J05N20120320 "Cruel" gunman filmed French school carnage http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82I07N20120320 Edit: Outrage prompts U.S. investigation of Florida teen killing http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82I17520120320 http://www.cyberpresse.ca/internatio...0_accueil_POS4 So, because of this ''Stand your ground'' law, this guy chase and pursued a young unarmed black than walked under the rain and shoot him in the back in ''self-defence'' and getting away with it. Even without taking the racial factor into acount, that's so wrong I don't know by what to start. __________________ Last edited by ganbaru; 2012-03-20 at 07:54.

2012-03-20, 07:52	Link #20293
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	After a week of the airwaves in the US being buried in the Afghan soldier's life story who allegedly murdered 16 civilians in their homes, mostly women and children -- one US news organization decides to find out about the victims. :P Naturally, it isn't Fox or any of the corporate commercial news pieces. http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/148974...ooting-rampage Spoiler for Uh, yeah, the 16 victims were people were in their homes spending the last few minutes of their lives being terrorized by the perpetrator.: Afghans say they're so inured to civilians killed in wars that they bury their dead and move on. That's not so easy for Muhammad Wazir. He lost his mother, his wife, a sister-in-law, a brother, a nephew, his four daughters and two of his sons in last week's mass shooting in two villages. "My little boy, Habib Shah, is the only one left alive, and I love him very much," says Wazir. The boy cried next to his father as Wazir spoke by cellphone. The 4-year-old is his favorite, Wazir says, and that's why he took the boy as he traveled to the eastern side of Kandahar province last week. While they were away, tragedy struck their tiny mud brick village in Panjwai district, southwest of Kandahar City. Like anyone, I wanted my children to be doctors, engineers — important people. All my dreams are buried under a pile of dust now. - Muhammad Wazir Public records and military sources have provided a clearer portrait of the man who allegedly slaughtered 16 people in the night. U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales had financial troubles. He played football in high school. His war buddies thought he was cool under fire. His neighbors liked him. His wife kept a blog. Bales had sustained previous injuries that might trigger post-traumatic stress disorder. Afghanistan — especially in rural villages — keeps few records of births and deaths. Most of the victims were young and illiterate and left only stunned relatives and friends behind. Panjwai district was dangerous before the massacre and is now considered off-limits to foreign and even Afghan journalists. Wazir, 35, says he can hardly describe the pain of returning home to find his entire family gone. "As a parent, you hate to see even your child's little finger hurt. Imagine losing 11 members of your family at once?" he says. His oldest boy, Ismatullah, had just started to grow soft whiskers when he died. At 14, he was tall and strong, turning handsome, his father says. He was in elementary school about five years ago when fighting erupted and all the schools closed. Like other boys in the village, Ismatullah joined his father in the fields, as their district became one of the biggest killing fields of the Afghan war. Every day after prayers and breakfast, Ismatullah worked with his father in the fields until noon. Then he could go play, Wazir says. The teenager especially liked an Afghan game called Tup Danda — a bit like baseball. Faizullah, the next oldest, was about 8 when he died. Wazir admits the boy was a little spoiled, with no school to attend and still too young for farm work. Faizullah loved to ride a bicycle around the village, and whenever he could, he would grab his father's cellphone to play the games on it. Also shot, stabbed and burned was Wazir's brother, Akhtar. He was about 21 years old and had just married. He had no children yet. "Like anyone, I wanted my children to be doctors, engineers — important people. All my dreams are buried under a pile of dust now," Wazir says. Men from Kandahar don't traditionally talk about their wives or daughters in public, and certainly not to the media. Wazir's daughters were 12, 8, 3 and 2 years old. Their names were Massoma, Farida, Palwasha and Bibya. His 60-year-old mother, Shakarina, also was killed, along with his wife, Zahra. "I loved them all like they were parts of my body," Wazir says. "I miss all of them terribly." Five other men and women were killed in a different village; NPR could not reach family members to confirm the victims' names. Five survivors were receiving treatment at the U.S. military hospital at Kandahar Airfield. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-03-20, 11:40	Link #20295
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	Dude arrested and prosecuted for malicious tweets. Heh heh, twitterpolice in action...only in America. Wait... it's in the UK?? Spoiler for the tweets in question: <p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/nA5v2eZ5ZZE">watch on YouTube</a>.</p> To be fair, the dude is a douche and got what he deserved, but I don't think this kinda thing is a matter for the police. __________________ Last edited by Jaden; 2012-03-20 at 14:48.

2012-03-20, 13:42	Link #20299
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	TSA did that to my grandfather. He was in a wheelchair at 88. But that was 2001 or maybe early 2002. __________________

2012-03-20, 14:27	Link #20300
andyjay729 YOU EEDIOT!!! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I'm right behind you Age: 41	Big earthquake in Mexico City.