Code Geass Ep. 15 subs problems on a Mac? Read this.

[liamroy]

Well, I think expecting the gg staff to spend the time not only to sub a series but fix a broken playback mechanism would be a bit much. But they could also not actively screw said playback, that would be easier.

It is extremely cool however that you and cnet128 are working with the VLC devs on this. I look forward to the release of VLG (Video Lan: Geass)

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by liamroy

Ah, but we're not buying anything, are we? In order for the free market model to work, there must be some disincentive to creating an inferior product. GG has already stated that they don't care if a large portion of their viewership simply disappears.

Well, technically you're paying with your time and bandwith, not "money", they're also putting their time and bandwith into creating the product, and there will be a net result where the fansub won't happen, though if their "leech" minimum is 0 (ie, they're fansubbing for themselves), then you won't see it disapear as fast as some groups.

Unfortunatly everyone discriminates against some group, especially in the fansub world where it seems many people do not have computers capable of playing back anything more advanced than XVID AVI hardsubs. In this case, you "money", ie, VLC isn't accepted at their store. I know it's a bad analogy, but it's all I can think of right now.

Now, since I use mplayer2 and MPC, I don't have the problems outlined, but one of my friends uses VLC and I had to get him set up on CCCP. So I'm not entirely aware of how the situation is working, did they just flip subtitle format to render VLC useless, or did they stick in a piece of code into the .ssa/.ass/etc script file that specifically targets VLC players and tells it not to display the subs?

If it's the first, it's not so much akin to "breaking" a business' windows rather than "upgradeing" their "software" to a new version, and older 3rd party applications that aren't keeping up with advancements are left in the dust because they can't be bothered to maintain up to date applications to render the new generation of product.

[Navel]

mmm... "business" ? WHAT ?!? Do you expect "customer care" ?!? WHAT CUSTOMER !!! Are you forced to buy something ? Do you buy something here ? Do they take money out of you ?

[liamroy]

Originally Posted by jpwong

Now, since I use mplayer2 and MPC, I don't have the problems outlined, but one of my friends uses VLC and I had to get him set up on CCCP. So I'm not entirely aware of how the situation is working, did they just flip subtitle format to render VLC useless, or did they stick in a piece of code into the .ssa/.ass/etc script file that specifically targets VLC players and tells it not to display the subs?

If it's the first, it's not so much akin to "breaking" a business' windows rather than "upgradeing" their "software" to a new version, and older 3rd party applications that aren't keeping up with advancements are left in the dust because they can't be bothered to maintain up to date applications to render the new generation of product.

No, unfortunately they did the latter. The coding itself was just a series of random letters that formed a word 257 characters long, enclosed in {} at the end of every line of dialogue. Normally VLC parses the entire line and displays it regardless of whether it's in brackets or not (which is part of what annoys GG, I gather), but if a word is too long for it's filter the line is ignored.

I would not have had a problem with the first example. It's the price of progress. It's the deliberate sabotage that got most of us upset.

[jpwong]

Ah, well, I can definatly see that as being a point of contention.

I suppose if you want to look at it this way, you could view it as like a product key on a product, designed to make it so the product is only supposed to work on people who have the correct key (player), but doesn't really stop anyone really determined to have their software the way they want it.

I don't really support the idea of intentionally targetting a single player like that. Personally, all that does is flood your channel with tech support. I was a group's channel during the whole XVID sweep. They had to put the channel on +m just so it wasn't flooded with complaints.

I guess we'll see with episode 16 if goes back to normal, in which case I'd see this as being more of a call to arms in getting people to try to have VLC brought up to proper spec. I've tried VLC, it's a great player, I don't like it, but it's a great player, and I would fully support seeing it's softsub capabilities brought up to par with other players.

If it doesn't go back (god forbit the amount of banning that will happen because of tech support issues over there), suck it up and change players and hope VLC decides to fix it's softsub capabilities, or find people who will demux the file for them.

Really, I think it's better to leave it alone, people will continue to use VLC regardless, and there are much better ways to win people over without creating so much hastle on your tech support, forums and irc channel (say a side by side comparison to show people just what they're missing out on by using VLC over say MPC). You probably won't get loads of people switching, but you also won't have to ban half your IRC joins and forum members.

[silverfire]

From what I understand from the recent requests to update the subtitle breaking exploit, it's going to continue. As long as the end result is that users are using compliant video solutions, I'm fine with the means.

Whether VLC gets fixed or people switch is none of my business, but so long as gg wants me to keep updating the exploit, I'll do so.

[TheFluff]

People seem to forget the potential of softsubs. If you really hate it that much, just fix the subs however you like, remux it to a new MKV and release it. Instant fansubbing!

Also, VLC has many more issues than just displaying stuff in brackets. To begin with, the sub font is horribly ugly and semi-transparent, which makes it extremely hard to read. A further list of funny quirks includes, but is not limited to:
- rendering multiple simultaneous subtitle lines on top of each other, making both unreadable
- crashing the player if a subtitle line with japanese characters overlap two or more english lines
- crashing the player if you seek to the end of an MP4 file (this might have been fixed)
- horribly slow h264 decoding due to using an ANCIENT version of libavcodec
- lots of funky "disappearing UI text" issues if your default language in Windows is Japanese but your locale is some other non-English language
- you only get stereo audio output from AAC, even if the audio is actually 5.1

It's better than it used to be though; back in the day it liked to randomly crash a lot. Actually it still does, but it's better than it used to be.
Also, never try to stream anything with it if you value your sanity. Yes, it was made for streaming, but it still sucks at it.


Edit: Very very simple guide to get the same softsubs as Windows users, but on a Mac:
(no config file editing or anything like that needed)
1. Download the MPlayer build mentioned in the OP. (the official MacOS X one from mplayerhq.hu)
2. Install it.
3. Go to Preferences (it should be under the apple or the File menu).
4. Click the Miscellaneous tab, and in the "additional parameters" field type the following:

-ass -embeddedfonts -correct-pts -sid 0

5. See this post and set a sub font as described.
6. Watch whatever you want, with proper softsubs.

Caveat: you may or may not need to add -fontconfig at step 4. Experiment.

[liamroy]

Originally Posted by silverfire

From what I understand from the recent requests to update the subtitle breaking exploit, it's going to continue. As long as the end result is that users are using compliant video solutions, I'm fine with the means.

Whether VLC gets fixed or people switch is none of my business, but so long as gg wants me to keep updating the exploit, I'll do so.

Thing is, VLC WAS a compliant video solution. It allowed people to watch Code Geass with english subtitles provided by gg. The only thing it didn't do was proper ayeses formatting, which is where offense was (apparently) taken. Whether that formatting was worth the hassel for Mac and Linux users to spend time setting up MPlayer is a purely subjective matter - if the ayeses style was truly so superior, it should have won in the "free market" and everyone would have made the switch on their own. Indeed, some people thought the ability to see subber comments (WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR) was a positive unique to VLC.

Whether you care or not, there's really nothing you can do to the subtitle coding that The Internet can't undo. So until rataime et. all can get us VLC+, or gg has a change of heart, we'll continue to demux and repair the subs. Interesting to hear from the team, though.

[liamroy]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

People seem to forget the potential of softsubs. If you really hate it that much, just fix the subs however you like, remux it to a new MKV and release it. Instant fansubbing!

We are! GG even says that you can do this, except for when they don't want you to, I guess.

Also, VLC has many more issues than just displaying stuff in brackets. To begin with, the sub font is horribly ugly and semi-transparent, which makes it extremely hard to read...

All of the preferences for how VLC actually displays subtitles are editable. You can make them solid, 99% clear, bright purple, sans or serif, Monaco or Times, whatever. You know what mplayer's default is? White and semi-transparent.

Your points about the rest of VLC's failings are well taken. Whatever their motivations gg certainly seems to have spurred people to take updating VLC more seriously. It's just a shame that it had to be done this way.

[silverfire]

@liamroy: See... You might think 'compliant' means that it displays the subtitles, but it goes a lot further than that. VLC's subtitle parser does not support override tags and formatting tags that are stored in the dialogue in {}'s. Those are important for telling the subtitle renderer how to transform the text, but VLC interprets them as text instead of metadata. In fact, it's this failing that led me to write the first version of the exploit.

If you look at the code patches rataime and Defiant00 wrote on the VLC forums, you'll realize that their code makes it just as non compliant by completely stripping out all the comments and essentially ignoring them.

Aside from that, your assertion that a superior format or style would win is extremely misguided. Does it disprove your point sufficiently by pointing out that DRM still exists?

Oh and by the way, fixing them by demuxing is about to become a lot harder.

[liamroy]

Originally Posted by silverfire

@liamroy: See... You might think 'compliant' means that it displays the subtitles, but it goes a lot further than that. VLC's subtitle parser does not support override tags and formatting tags that are stored in the dialogue in {}'s. Those are important for telling the subtitle renderer how to transform the text, but VLC interprets them as text instead of metadata. In fact, it's this failing that led me to write the first version of the exploit.

TheFluff made the same point, and I acknowledge that VLC is far from perfect. But sometimes good enough really is good enough, and if people make that choice knowing that they're using an inferior product, that's theirs to make. Because I manage a fleet of laptops for a university I have come to hate Windows with the flaming passion of a thousand suns. Everything, everything that instructors do with Windows laptops could be done with far less hassle on a Mac, and that would make my life measurably easier. But I don't send out faulty laptops because I want people to get fed up with Windows and switch.

If you look at the code patches rataime and Defiant00 wrote on the VLC forums, you'll realize that their code makes it just as non compliant by completely stripping out all the comments and essentially ignoring them.

Actually, they've also been discussing adopting the same subtitle parser that mplayer uses and incorporating it into the code. Far from a band-aid, this would add full styled subtitle support to VLC. Who could ask for more?

Aside from that, your assertion that a superior format or style would win is extremely misguided. Does it disprove your point sufficiently by pointing out that DRM still exists?

Actually, someone else tried to use the free market analogy to argue against one of my points, so that analogy wasn't mine to begin with. And isn't DRM essentially exactly what you're doing, ensuring that your product only works with certain media players by actively coding it that way? I thought the idea behind using open standards was to give people a choice in how they played back content.

Oh and by the way, fixing them by demuxing is about to become a lot harder.

That sounds like... A CHALLENGE! Be sure to update the playback page on gg's website with instructions on how to strip these subs Or else put in a note that we're not allowed to do so with Code Geass from now on.

[silverfire]

They were also talking about using libass in that thread only hypothetically, but that requires a lot more work than just a code patch. I don't see any of the main VLC developers coding anything related to it or discussing even the basics of how the library would be integrated into the project, so it's safe to say that even if it does get implemented, it won't happen any time soon. The great thing about it is, when it does get implemented, even if we continue utilizing the exploit, the hypothetical newer updated version of VLC would be able to play the subs without crashing.

Additionally, while you say the buffer overflow exploit constitutes DRM, think carefully about how it works. The exploit adds a long string of characters that comply perfectly with the Advanced SubScript specifications and is completely transparent to players that comply with the specification. Any player that complies with the standard would be able to use the script without even noticing that something was wrong in the first place. In most cases, DRM requires you to use a proprietary player and a proprietary container which is completely irrelevant in this case, since the the container is open source, and any compliant player is able to use the subtitles. Comparing normal usage of the subtitle specification to DRM would be akin to saying not allowing OGG on an MP3-only player also counts as DRM.

Open standards? We ARE using an open standard. It's merely the end client that doesn't support the standard.

Aside from all that, the scripts will be just as easy to demux. The part I enjoy the most is that when you're up against an actively developed exploit for a bug that doesn't get fixed, you're fighting an uphill battle. We'll always be at least one step ahead.

[liamroy]

Yes, you are using an open standard, and technically you're not breaking any of the rules of that standard. Because it is open, you are free to do whatever you wish with it.

But adding 256+ random characters to every line does not constitute "normal usage" of the spec, it constitutes abuse -an "exploit" in your own words- of the spec in order to break one player.

And of course I don't expect a new cross-platform binary of VLC overnight or next week or next month. Mac users are used to being on the short end of the dev cycle, but there are always options.

Aside from all that, the scripts will be just as easy to demux. The part I enjoy the most is that when you're up against an actively developed exploit for a bug that doesn't get fixed, you're fighting an uphill battle. We'll always be at least one step ahead.

Oh, now I really can't wait for the next release. There are few things I enjoy more than being the underdog

[Nicholi]

I think to be a dog at all, top or underdog, people have to be rooting for you. n_n

I was just over at my hoser friend's house, who has now switched to Mac, and I found it infinitely simple to install mplayer from their official site. And I don't even know wtf I'm doing on a Mac! We were playing magix softsubs in no time.

Resist....must resist....must use VLC...cause...I likes it!

[Schneizel]

Thing is, VLC WAS a compliant video solution. It allowed people to watch Code Geass with english subtitles provided by gg. The only thing it didn't do was proper ayeses formatting, which is where offense was (apparently) taken.

I'd like to state we have more than one reason for hating on VLC, but you know, technical jargon apparently means nothing to other people. Practical examples get attention better, and it appears to have been effective.

However, I am rather sad to see that it took so long for people to want to care about fixing VLC to get up and do something. Especially since this is long after I did a fansub encoded a particular way with the intention of breaking VLC. It broke it each and every time during playback, and yet there was no uproar and attempt to fix VLC's playback then. And this video, btw, was encoded into xvid, not h264. Many people who cried out against us and our sabotage claimed the video was encoded in h264 and they had been deceived, but I feel that is impossible because "xvid_encraw.exe" certainly doesn't sound like something to encode h264 with.

Chapters, mkv, h264. Why do they break in VLC? Chapters put into an h264/mkv is extremely innocent and isn't something done with the intention of breaking it. But, I have seen various screenshots with VLC messing up and pixelating on playback when flipping around in chapters. Maybe it's been fixed by now, maybe it hasn't. I would just prefer to just use a video player that didn't break when I moved chapters to begin with.

And I'm kind of sad to see the anti h264 site vanish as recommending it would have been ideal during this situation.

[rataime]

For those who want to use VLC on gg's Ep16 (that's their choice), here's the sub, extracted from gg's release :
http://rataime.free.fr/misc/Geass16_clean.srt

[liamroy]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

However, I am rather sad to see that it took so long for people to want to care about fixing VLC to get up and do something. Especially since this is long after I did a fansub encoded a particular way with the intention of breaking VLC. It broke it each and every time during playback, and yet there was no uproar and attempt to fix VLC's playback then.

Maybe it was just a series no one cared about? :P

And I'm kind of sad to see the anti h264 site vanish as recommending it would have been ideal during this situation.

I and many other people have stated already that we would have no opposition to legitimate formatting being the cause of VLCs breakdowns. Progress always takes some adjustment. We are not Luddite republican senators who fear "the internets." We just don't like having our freedom of choice undermined.

Also, jeebus rataime! That's fast work. I was kind of hoping that this one really would be a challenge...

[Defiant00]

Well, the initial version of the patch was entirely to get VLC to display something for the current episodes, so yes, my version just had it strip out anything within {}s.

I do have every intent of now working on it further and actually getting it to support proper subtitle formatting, but having just started working on VLC I can't do everything at once, and having it not break horribly was the first step.

[rataime]

Actually, this was a release from an anonymous uploader (Not me, btw). See the gg website for more informations.

I think this uploader should at least have made clear this wasn't from gg. Oh, well.

[xris]

Originally Posted by Shining_Destiny

Fake claim

From the gg website

Fake Ep 16 v2
Posted under Code Geass by Orange Farmer Lemonade on February 6th, 2007
Someone has released a fake episode 16 v2 with our [gg] tag on TokyoTosho. It’s not ours.

You can tell by:
#1: Torrent description says, “v2 now with moar VLC support”. You should know us better than that.
#2: Torrent is hosted at datorrents.com.
#3: QUALITY IRC linking in that Tosho post.
#4: There’s nothing about it besides this news post on the webpage.
#5: It’s also not on any IRC bot.
#6: Lythka, the person who made the v2, is not in our group.

Download it if you want, but we don’t take any responsibility for whatever it is.

Edit: It appears the fake has been removed from Datorrents and TokyoTosho. Oh well.