why isn't avi dying

[WanderingKnight]

Unfortunately, I need a Windows box to register CoreAVC , so no, it's not automagically possible, at least for now. Until there's an option that doesn't require hacking around the Windows registry (or until the folks at ffmpeg decide to improve multithreading in their codec) I'm gonna stick with what I have right now.

[FooBarWidget]

As much as I want MKV to win (because AVI is such a bad format), I have to admit that MKV support by players isn't as good as it should be. MKV has existed for several years, yet MPlayer (no not Windows Media Player) and VLC occasionally choke on MKV files, forcing me to download the AVIs. Not surprising since they use the same MKV implementation. Hardware players don't seem to support anything besides MP4 (the container) and AVI with DivX.

It's kinda sad really.

[martino]

mplayer chokes on MKV files? May we have a sample please...? (apart from files with linked chapters)

P.S. XviD is compatible with certain DivX players/decoders if encoded to certain specs (IIRC something like 1-3 B-frames, no Packed Bitstream, no GMC and QPel, some non-standard matrices apparently cause problems too).

EDIT: @ WanderingKnight
That Murder Princess high resolution release is upscaled from a DVD, so not much win there.

[WanderingKnight]

What I still don't understand is why the people who have no trouble at all running h264 HD encodes in Matroska container are complaining, when for a vast majority of the shows out there you have both options available. And in some cases, like what was happening with Darker Than Black, only the HD version is available

(I think Murder Princess is another notable example, but those high resolution encodes play fine on my PC). <---EDIT: I stand corrected on this example, but it was just that, an example -_-;

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

(I think Murder Princess is another notable example, but those high resolution encodes play fine on my PC).

Murder Princess is a DVD release afaik and therefore SD.

Originally Posted by FooBarWidget

MKV has existed for several years, yet MPlayer (no not Windows Media Player) and VLC occasionally choke on MKV files, forcing me to download the AVIs.

As martino said sample please, plus versions of mplayer and vlc used and an exact description of what is actually happening when you play.

Not surprising since they use the same MKV implementation.

No, vlc uses libmatroska while mplayer defaults to its own custom matroska demuxer..

[wingdarkness]

Is it really that hard to understand?

avi = All Players, All Computers, Minimal Problems...

mkv = Not all players, Not all computers, Sometimes Major Problems...

If mkv could be as universal as avi there would be no avi, but it's not so there is and I suspect there always will be...

PBS is learning^^...

[martino]

lol

Wrong (partially)...

AVI = old, no VFR, no chapters, no Anamorphic support (IIRC), no Vorbis, no softsubs, no multiple video/audio tracks, many unsupported video and audio formats. (note: hacks not taken into account in this case)

AVI is not "that" universal as you might think. In fact it's fairly the opposite. Turn towards MP4 if you want some kind of universality (and that is still very limited in many ways)... You have to look at both sides of the spectrum when comparing, not just the one that suits you.

[wingdarkness]

^Hey I use both avi and mvk (Hell I wish ogg didn't vanish as it lets you see parts of the file without having to dl it all--WTF happened to ogg anyways?) so it's not a case of what suits me personally, but like discussed before the anime community is like 1% of the entire computer using dynamic and most if not all nominal users (most of which have no clue what an mvk or avi is as long as it plays in the WMP) use avi...You're describing avi from a subbers POV, the general public don't care about that..."No Anamorphic no Vorbis, no softsubs support..."--You think John Q. Public thinks about that when watching their HBO-ripped Soprano's ep? As for MP4 puhleeeze, that $hit is not as universal as avi (again to the general public, not to the niche hardcore anime leeching public like you and me)...Unless you have some type of skewed meaning for universal that doesn't mean basically plays in all players on all computers...Like I said Avi is the lowest common denominator for all players not to mention general and niche audiences alike...Not that I'm waving some avi-flag like it's the American flag or something but geeks kinda ignore that the general public are like apes when it comes to viewing material (even the ones that know how to leech) and avi is their banana...

[Oneironaut]

It's easy to complain about the prevalence of AVI if you have good specs and run on a standard Windows operating system. Otherwhise softsubs are a pain.

Take me. I have two laptops. One is a five year old piece of crap that can't run MKV without stuttering and displaying meshed colors. The other is fairly new and runs on Ubuntu Linux, with which CCCP is incompatible. I can use MKV on VLC and MPlayer, but the sub font reads to incorrect size and position. Why spend hours researching media settings and codecs when I can just download AVI?

AVI works with sinful ease, and most people choose the path of least resistance. That's why it's not dying quickly.

[emptyeighty]

You _can_ view partially downloaded mkv or mp4 files without problems. Even avi is possible in many cases, though significantly harder.

And you might not have noticed, but there are millions of standalone mp4 players out there already.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Why spend hours researching media settings and codecs when I can just download AVI?

Video quality is quite a good argument imho. Also installing an mplayer build that has fontconfig included takes just as much time as any other mplayer build.

[Oneironaut]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Video quality is quite a good argument imho.

I see no markable difference and wouldn't particularly care if their was one. Call me a heathen if you will.

[wingdarkness]

LoL @ "sinful ease" ^^...

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

You _can_ view partially downloaded mkv or mp4 files without problems. Even avi is possible in many cases, though significantly harder.

That's not true...It's a total crap-shoot (Most times MPC can only make out a few seconds if that), unlike ogg which always let you preview in my experience...As for Mp4 I simply donot download enuff of those type files and considering how much anime I watch not many groups provide MP4 anyways..SO I guess MP4 is more of general thing with kids today (I'm honestly not sure), but in the anime community mp4 isn't as prevelant as people pretend...The proof is my cashe of new anime on my HD and I only have maybe 1 or 2 MP4 files...

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I see no markable difference and wouldn't particularly care if their was one. Call me a heathen if you will.

On a clean source the difference is _very_ obvious.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

That's not true...It's a total crap-shoot (Most times MPC can only make out a few seconds if that), unlike ogg which always let you preview in my experience...

Your experience is rather limited then. mkv is designed so that important meta information is stored at the beginning of the file so you can cut the actual stream off whereever you want and still have a playable file up to where you cut it. Just cancel any ddl or xdcc at any point and you'll see.

As for Mp4 I simply donot download enuff of those type files and considering how much anime I watch not many groups provide MP4 anyways..SO I guess MP4 is more of general thing with kids today (I'm honestly not sure)

Or maybe it's an MPEG standard that both xbox 360 and PS3 support. It's here to stay.

, but in the anime community mp4 isn't as prevelant as people pretend...The proof is my cashe of new anime on my HD and I only have maybe 1 or 2 MP4 files...

Yeah a lot of groups use mkv even for hardsubs. You can just remux to mp4 without problems though.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Your experience is rather limited then. mkv is designed so that important meta information is stored at the beginning of the file so you can cut the actual stream off whereever you want and still have a playable file up to where you cut it. Just cancel any ddl or xdcc at any point and you'll see.

Dude that's not true...If you are saying any, ANY mvk file that you dl some percentage of can be easily previewed than I'm sorry we have two different experiences...If I were to average it I'd say 3 outta every 10 might let you sneek-a-peek but I get a Cannot render file almost all the time when trying to view uncompleted mvk (Like I said crap-shoot)...I'm no limited edition cybergeek but I'm no n00b either...If you can dl a fraction of a mvk and ALWAYS 100% preview it with ease, then more love to you...

As for the rest obviously there is an issue with visual quality and it's a risk vs. reward system to some and for others a situation of "sinful ease" ^^... However, why you would even have a desire to have .avi vanish when it's such an easily supported format is really beyond me (not to metion easily convertabile format)...There's enuff avi, mvk, and mp4 for everyone and the true geeks know how to convert things to their ultimate liking anyways while softcore geeks like myself can fool with a few fddshow or divx imaging options to get our ideal viewing pleasure...So I say leave avi alone for the same reason many people still have a VCR somewhere in the house--It comes in handy and it doesn't hurt to have it...

[martino]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Dude that's not true...If you are saying any, ANY mvk file that you dl some percentage of can be easily previewed than I'm sorry we have two different experiences...If I were to average it I'd say 3 outta every 10 might let you sneek-a-peek but I get a Cannot render file almost all the time when trying to view uncompleted mvk (Like I said crap-shoot)...I'm no limited edition cybergeek but I'm no n00b either...If you can dl a fraction of a mvk and ALWAYS 100% preview it with ease, then more love to you...

I'll have to defend emptyeighty on this one, because what you are saying is rather unreasonable. I can stop any torrent with MKV files that I have running right now and it will play. Yes, mind you, it can only play what has been downloaded, but it does play it unlike AVI for which you have to use certain tools to get to work, if at all. Maybe you are using a bad splitter (because MKV does have the features needed for previewing)... :/

[wingdarkness]

^Perhaps you are correct on that account, but for me it's a crap-shoot and I got basic CCCP and Haali-splitter format...and yeah avi is much less likely to ever give you a preview unlike the old school Morpheus days where you could, but that was a whole different dling format than bittorrent...

[TheFluff]

le sigh, lots of HAY LETS POST MY UNINFORMED OPINIONS THAT ARE NOT ANCHORED IN ANY REALITY ON THE INTERNET CAUSE I'M COOL LIKE THAT stuff in this thread
business as usual, in other words

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Otherwhise softsubs are a pain.

since when does mkv require softsubs?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

One is a five year old piece of crap that can't run MKV without stuttering and displaying meshed colors.

mkv in itself has no different system requirements than avi has
"meshed colors" sounds like a decoder or possibly a driver problem, it has nothing to do with the container either

Originally Posted by GHDpro

They're still selling low-end models with Celeron M 1.4 Ghz CPUs in it.

my 1.4 GHz Celeron laptop could play softsubbed 1024x576 24fps h264 releases with ffdshow like a year ago, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to watch 720p on such a CPU now, probably with ffdshow but definitely with coreavc

let me remind you though that the h264 issue and the mkv issue are completely different and probably shouldn't even be discussed in the same thread

Originally Posted by sothis

words

you and your site are both enormous failures

Originally Posted by -KarumA-

too bad that i dont see DVD players coming soon that support MKV and OGM files..

don't count on it, champ:

Originally Posted by #darkhold

22:04:36 < Haali> fun, I was asked to write firmware for a standalone player

[WanderingKnight]

let me remind you though that the h264 issue and the mkv issue are completely different and probably shouldn't even be discussed in the same thread

Please feel free to correct me on this, but I heard some while ago that working with Xvid in mkv and/or h264 in avi was either a pain in the ass or a problem on the decoding side... but I'm not too informed on the matter. I remember I had trouble playing some Xvid encoded mkv files some while ago, but that was on my dead XP installation, and I think it was an issue with CoreAVC.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

^Perhaps you are correct on that account, but for me it's a crap-shoot and I got basic CCCP and Haali-splitter format...

If that means you have CCCP and Haali splitter installed at the same time get rid of your separate Haali. CCCP includes it. Also make sure you are using the latest version, there was a release just a week or so ago.

and yeah avi is much less likely to ever give you a preview unlike the old school Morpheus days where you could, but that was a whole different dling format than bittorrent...

Well of course previewing doesn't work well at all with bittorrent. BT basically chops the file into lots of little pieces regardless of content. So even if you have the mandatory first few kilobytes for the header you will very probably have very many b and p frames without the referenced i frame or even worse there may be only parts of frames. It's rather unsurprising that a given splitter or decoder craps out on such input. Usually mplayer or the dreaded vlc can handle previewing if the file is somewhat complete.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Please feel free to correct me on this, but I heard some while ago that working with Xvid in mkv

No problem whatsoever with that.

and/or h264 in avi was either a pain in the ass or a problem on the decoding side...

Both, and more.

but I'm not too informed on the matter. I remember I had trouble playing some Xvid encoded mkv files some while ago,

It would help if you could elaborate on what the problem and software used was. There's always the possibility of the encoder messing up somehow, though with mkv that's rather hard to do.

but that was on my dead XP installation, and I think it was an issue with CoreAVC.

CoreAVC does not ever touch xvid. It decodes h264 only.

[wingdarkness]

As usual the muthafluffer straightens us all out cause he's cool like that and has stock in h264...Lmao...

@emptyeighty - Yeah I figured the way bittorent downloads files sporadically had something to do with that...