2012-06-08, 02:47 | Link #9221 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I think that he's either managed to turn it off, it's been erased, or events are being manipulated to look as though it is no longer having any effect. |
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2012-06-08, 03:34 | Link #9222 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Sui was not even eliminated to begin with, so she didn't even get her chance to test herself against anyone except Nienami, the weakest. You don't know if she's the second weakest to begin with. Given that Naze took her out, though, that's doubtful, as Naze is probably stronger than Wazinuka and Emukae and definitely stronger than Zenkichi - the weakest. Quote:
Furthermore, DS will only ever give you the illusion of narrative conventions being erased. It's not actually going to happen because Nisio will keep following them in the real world to sell his manga. Still though, he has shown us the 'diversions' from the conventional main-character Anshin' talked about. Quote:
Just because a possibility is forming? I gotta say that's pretty bad reasoning. Especially when so much more supports the skill staying. Such as with Zenkichi being the absolute weakest in the Student Council and not the strongest, a narrative convention Medaka Box used to follow, but dosen't anymore for some obscure reason(DS). Or even, the entire last arc, being reduced to nothing because Zenkichi's personal skill is gone? That's what made the whole concept of the skill interesting. It's the right to do what is wrong. A skill where fate has no sway over. Spoiler:
'Without any Plus and without any Minus. He dosen't have anything. In exchange, there won't be a strange twist of fate. Hitoyoshi has that right, he isn't a Plus or a Minus, but a Zero. My new world's main character'. Guess whose the main character of Medaka Box nowadays? Zenkichi. Guess who will never have a strange twist of fate? Zenkichi. I'm sorry, usually I'd give a little wiggle room for argumentation, but this is a point I just see as dead wrong based on absolutely nothing that I frankly thing lesses the enjoyment of the manga by destroying one of the most intersting things of the last arc. There's nothing supporting this notion, at all. Nevermind it trampling on the entire last arc's development of Zenkichi. Of course, if it is reavealed to be true later, I can only call it bad writting and shrug at the author. Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-06-08 at 03:53. |
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2012-06-08, 04:09 | Link #9223 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.
You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest. Also, I find that Zenkichi is the "weakest" of the Student Council in the same way that Kumagawa is the "weakest"; that is to say, he isn't at all. That said, I should say though that I find Devil Style uninteresting. A very strict reading of how Ajimu described it would imply that nothing of note would happen to Zenkichi, ever. |
2012-06-08, 04:57 | Link #9224 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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lol. Emukae x Zenkichi end incoming? Seriously, Emukae's love been receiving way too much focus recently to not be setting up something.
CxC's translation had Kanaino calling Kugurugi a "word user", although the last page identified her Style as "Disassembly" (/"Deconstruction" lol). Anyone have any idea what in particular was meant by that (Kugurugi being a "word user", that is) or am I gonna have to look through the raw myself? Quote:
I disagree that Devil Style has disappeared, but I also disagree that it has any extended effect on characters not directly involved with Zenkichi. Saying that Medaka can "lose" now against any random smuck or be turned into a "damsel in distress" sort of thing is dumb, the only opponent who can cancel out Medaka's MC/Abnormal aura for the moment is Ajimu/Zenkichi. Outside of occasional interactions with Zenkichi, all of the other Medaka Box character's universal auras should still be operating just as they always have. It's only because of that that things like getting kidnapped during a crazy wedding fighting tournament are possible in the first place. Anyway, I'm gonna look forward to seeing Emukae somehow beating the supposedly strongest Suitor, lol . Maybe this will be a good point to step away from the conventional "shounen battle" arc structure; same way that the Flask Plan mixed things up once it reached the Akune vs. Koga and Naze fight. |
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2012-06-08, 05:02 | Link #9225 | ||
The Mage of Four Hearts
Author
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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In any case, if Zenkichi had any sense, he would have gotten rid of the thing. I assume the thing works on him as well, and if so, it's plain stupidity to use something that takes away your own luck. I mean, we know it works in everyday situations, since it was at work at the culture festival, apparently, so what if it messes up his everyday life?
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2012-06-08, 05:24 | Link #9226 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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The point about Devil Style/Zenkichi's "Zero" status in the first place is his rejection of the conventional advantages of a Main Character. This includes the escapist function of most shallow entertainment/junk fiction in general, where you basically have a generic/archetypal self-insert MC for the audience and he gets awesome abilities and goes on epic adventures so the audiences can pretend that they themselves are that awesome personally. After Nishio exaggerated the ridiculousness of the narrative conveniences this creates via Medaka to its logical conclusion, he's now developed Zenkichi as a character who stands in opposition to that. In essence, via Devil Style, Zenkichi has/will now become the antithesis to the self-satisfying self-insert Main Character. To the extent that this manga continues to actually follow Zenkichi, he will be exactly as Ajimu said, a "New World MC" who does not offer any of the conventional escapist satisfaction of standard shounen main characters. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-06-08 at 05:56. |
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2012-06-08, 05:47 | Link #9227 | |
KORA!!
Scanlator
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Also, it didn't identify her style as such, "style" as it was written out before when referring to style vs skill, was no where near that line of text at the end She's a disassembly type, whatever that means. Maybe she just likes to disassemble I suppose, but it said word user, much like Kanaino was a kanji user. So it could imply that she's more about word play (shiritori anyone?) because we all know how much Nisio loves playing with words. |
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2012-06-08, 06:28 | Link #9228 | |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
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Devil Style simply reduces the probability of a shounen gimmick happening down to the same as any other event happening, it doesn't erase the probability of it happening completely. |
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2012-06-08, 07:05 | Link #9229 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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And now Devil Style could allow Emukae to change history and be the first minus to have a win.
Also, isn't it normal for the weakest suitor to be the first one to be defeated and subsequently left behind? That has nothing to do with Devil Style, that's pure logic. |
2012-06-08, 07:34 | Link #9230 | |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
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2012-06-08, 07:53 | Link #9231 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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I think the question about Devil Style depends strongly on what kind of world Medaka Box actually is, underneath all those trappings.
I personally suspect Medaka Box is a very Seinenish world, in many ways. So, if Devil Style neutralized Shouen asspulls and other "coincidental" Shounen tropes, then the real nature of the world would reveal itself. So, there's a possibility that Devil Style basically renders the Main Character the protagonist of a Seinen world, rather than a Shouen world. Note of course, that I'm using both terms loosely, but I wonder whether Nisio is planning to steer Medaka Box decisively into a Seinen direction. |
2012-06-08, 07:57 | Link #9232 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Really, if an Alternate Medaka Box was a harem show revolving around Zenkichi, the girls may well be some of the most unforgettable. From the complex, and Cursed Eukae, to the teasing, enigmatic and cunning Shiranui, and if Naze was in the mix.... Nevermind, that's stuff for Fanfiction. But I do think Ajimu would have thrown Zenkichi into a harem anime had he gave the wrong answers to her after the treasure hunt. |
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2012-06-08, 08:01 | Link #9233 | |||
匂宮家
Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-06-08, 08:19 | Link #9234 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Meh, my Japanese isn't really good enough to attempt that riddle yet. Still, didn't translators at least screw up the last line? Unless I'm missing something there, these are the kanji used for omimai (mimau in this cause), which is a visit to an ill person, as opposed to omiai, an arranged meeting for prospective marriage partners. Maybe that's part of the riddle, idk, but the initial translation seems wrong. Anyone with more comprehensive knowledge of the language willing to shed some light on the matter?
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2012-06-08, 09:02 | Link #9235 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Based on analogy with the Plus though, I would expect most Minuses are likely to lose, but don't always lose. Just as Medaka is "more abnormal" than the others who can all roll oddly on dice or enter random passwords, Kumagawa is "more Minus" than the other Minuses. He always gets the worst hand and always loses, but the others might just get bad hands and usually lose. It's a matter of degree. |
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2012-06-08, 10:08 | Link #9236 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Is "kotoba tsukai" (言葉使い) pretty much in direct analogy to how Kanaino was described--i.e., was Kanaino a "kanji tsukai" (漢字使い)? Given Kugurugi's habit of deconstruction/disassembly, then, is there a chance that her "word using" ability actually refers to kanji compounds? I.e. controlling things via breaking down word compounds (言葉 "word-leaf", 漢字 "Chinese Han-character") into their individual components. Or would it not be accurate to describe kanji compounds as 言葉? I am not totally thrilled at the idea that all of the Suitors might have abilities related to words/language. I mean, I can appreciate Nishio's constant play with language and I'm sure it will be educational if he goes full depth with it, but it would feel gimmicky if he devoted an entire arc/group of villains to it (although I guess that might signal the full on transition of Medaka Box into JoJo mode; i.e., the start of becoming an endlessly continuing, long-running series). On the other hand, retroactively we can also see some hints that this might be the case. In the first place, after all, Namanie's catch phrase, "rukirukirukiruki...", was also based on taking the two (phonetic) components of the verb 切る ("kiru", "to cut"), splitting them, and switching their order around. |
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2012-06-08, 10:59 | Link #9237 |
匂宮家
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Yes, Kanaino was a 漢字使い. I think Kugurugi's style has more to do with talking than the characters she is using. I think we'll need to wait until she actually does something to reach a conclusion on what she can do and whether all suitors have language-based styles.
Nisio is a huge JoJo fan. Just the thought of him going that far is intriguing~ =w=
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2012-06-08, 11:30 | Link #9238 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Isn't that exactly what he's doing now? |
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2012-06-08, 12:04 | Link #9239 |
匂宮家
Join Date: Apr 2012
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It's an asspull when, near the end of a fight, a protagonist or someone similar is losing badly and they suddenly reveal they had that 3rd stage of their stick already figured out and had been hiding it for some odd reason and then miraculously trample the opposition. It's an asspull when a character gets never-ending boosts and when you think another one will never come/work, his father shows up and claims there is an ultimate version that can do anything but takes away everything afterwards--and then it's all restored in the end. It's an asspull when a character who once saved the know reality is treated like a kid by people who failed to protect that said reality because they trained for about a year over those events--bear in mind, these are supposed to be people over 100 years of age who trained really really long for that third level of their sticks.
Zenkichi's ability didn't come out of nowhere. He was trained to become the main character and acquired it in the course of that. Plus, at the very beginning, the sort of victory he wanted over Medaka wasn't clear. If not for Ajimu and Kumagawa's intervention and pushes towards the right direction, he might have never accepted what he thought of Medaka and won a dry victory in a one-on-one battle. That is to say, simply using Devil Style (or some other skill) wasn't enough for other possible routes of victory. In the end, he had to have learn knew things besides what he already knew. After Zenkichi used his version of Altered God Mode, he didn't become an invincible shounen protagonist, and in fact, he was pretty much losing throughout the fight. His ability wasn't necessarily awesome nor was his endeavor epic. Also, he didn't come out and say I have this awesome ability that'll make me the strongest or "didn't you know I had this ability all along" or "I have this innate talent for doing inexplicable hogwash." He said he acquired this ability during training with help from Anshin'in-san and Shiranui. If this is an asspull, I'm worried about what you might consider skills to be and how you aren't denouncing the god, that is, Anshin'in-san. (To clarify, I myself don't think even Anshin'in's abilities are asspull. She was omnipotent from the very beginning and in fact, her inability to do something without any whimsical reasons would be more of an asspull.) As long as it's shown that the character did train, I don't see reason to list every single thing said character learned during that training.
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2012-06-08, 12:05 | Link #9240 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Oh, and another thing. Ususally a main character's power-up is supposed to have them instantly win the fight and be superior to their opponent. If it was an ass-pull, it was a meaningless ass-pull that only served for Zenkichi not to get instantly killed by the massively stronger opponent. Zenkichi's Mars Mode was still inferior overall to Nienami. Another convention NOT being followed, I see. It was obvious Nishio prepared that ability far before-hand, though. Quote:
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The skill technically only stops fate's whims on events, not completely 'impossibilitates' them. An equal playing field, now that is awesome. Quote:
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And as for your second point, I wasn't replying to it, but it's obvious he can still write his story with those characters, given that there's good enough writing in the situations he conjures. |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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