Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Azure22

Maybe it doesn't preclude, but I assume diplomatic action is taking place as the fighting is going on. While Cagalli is shown just sitting in the room looking angry, everyone else around her is going through papers and seems to be rushing around, if I recall correctly.

While Orb may have been making all sorts of diplomatic gestures at that time, they weren't being made with Durandal (and likely not with PLANT at all). They had already decided that they would contest with PLANT with the force of arms.

Originally Posted by Azure22

I think the reason Uzumi Nara Attha would've done the same thing Cagalli did, because, after all, the were preparing for the attack from the earth alliance while they were trying to negotiate. An invasion is one thing, you can negotiate while they're getting ready. But giant laser strike from the sky? I think anyone would want somethin' up there trying to stop that from getting ready.

If Uzumi were to live up to the principles that he espoused in life, he would have started negotiating a ceasefire as soon as Orb beat off the PLANT invasion of their territory. They were in a relatively decent position to arrange an armistice - as long as they believed that Durandal could be negotiated with. Instead, Cagalli went on the air to justify her government's position - effectively announcing casus belli for continuing the war.

Originally Posted by Azure22

First off, I'd like to think Athrun had just as Shinn did when it came to separating personal feelings from his uniform. Let's not forget that Athrun joined up for the sake of his own personal feelings, that he should fight for his nation which was wrongfully attacked by the Earth Alliance. Then, when he's fighting Kira, he hesitates, has trouble pulling the trigger, doesn't try as hard as he should. Let's not forget how much he lost it when Niccol died, also.

#2 doesn't really have anything to do with why a soldier decided to join the military. Someone who joined up on a dare might well be just as professional as one who joined up out of patriotism. Instead, it's about how a soldier's actions while on a mission or acting in an official capacity should be divorced from his personal feelings. Certainly, Athrun hesitating when he confronted Kira and his reaction to Nicol's death aren't the way a true professional should have acted, but these actions didn't do much to detract from his duty. In military terms, his hesitation with regards to Kira would earn a rebuke at worst, while the rest would be considered fairly natural reactions. These are a far cry from Shinn's insubordination and lack of discipline.

Originally Posted by Azure22

I'll talk about his leaving ZAFT in a little bit, but I'd say that involves "personal feelings." Then in SEED Destiny, he still has the same problems hesitating, still can't always pull the trigger, and when he fights against Orb, you can see how anguished he gets, and how he doesn't want to kill any of the Orb soldiers. At that point, you can tell that's interfering with his ability to carry out his orders.

Not really. Athrun effectively had the authority to do whatever he wanted on the battlefield. Or at least that's what Durandal's explanation of the FAITH designation suggests.

Originally Posted by Azure22

And then there's the matter of "insubordination" and "following orders." Yeah, Shinn's more insubordinate, but he follows orders extremely well. At this point, I'm defining "insubordination" as "disrespecting superior officers." I would say, however, that Shinn is very adept at handling the majority of his orders. I should also note that I'm judging "following orders" in terms of the severity of the order.

Correction: Shinn obeyed some orders extremely well. Obeying some orders but not all of them is actually a extremely serious breach of a soldier's responsibility, and a strong sign of insubordination. I'd liken it to "a doctor sometimes following health guidelines" or "a pilot sometimes flying safely".

Originally Posted by Azure22

When Athrun left the first time, yes, it was after a great deal of thought, but the orders he'd received were perfectly legal. A weapon with a dangerous component in it had fallen into what may be enemy hands. Finding it or destroying it is a perfectly logical, and perfectly legal, action for the military to take. Athrun then goes ahead and changes sides and fights against ZAFT. Yes, that turns out to be the morally right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that he refused to follow lawful orders and went as far as to fight against the military he had previously been in.

Correction: Athrun didn't actually fight against ZAFT until he had defected. What he truly did against the uniform code was to refuse to return Justice back to his father. The reason he rebelled was because Patrick Zala had begun to exceed both his authority and his sanity. It's quite arguable that it would be his duty not to hand over any weapons to someone whose actions were now working against PLANT's interests.

Originally Posted by Azure22

'm not gonna say that's the wrong thing, but if you were in charge of the military (and, for the record, believed yourself to be doing the right thing), a soldier who does that is a worse soldier than one who's mouthy, especially if the mouthy soldier happens to complete his missions remarkably effectively.

An unprofessional soldier might still be very valuable on the battlefield, but he's still unprofessional. How effective Shinn is at combat isn't really at issue here.

Originally Posted by Azure22

And then in SEED Destiny, we don't know what Dullindal was going to do to him, but if a person in charge has reason to believe that one of their subordinates intensely disagrees with what he's being asked to do and probably won't do their job well, I think most people would want that subordinate off the job. Now, I don't remember all of this episode, and if we had any hint that Athrun was going to be killed or have anything else illegal done to him, it'd be a different story. No, let me rephrase that: If Athrun had had any hint that something illegal may happen to him, then it'd be a different story. If I recall, I don't think he did, other than the military police coming for him.

It really doesn't take a genius to put two and two together. And it had become obvious that Athrun was no longer of any use to Durandal. Hence, it's natural to assume that Durandal would somehow get rid of him. While executing Athrun wasn't the only option, it was certainly a strong likelihood. It's only safe to assume that they meant him no harm if we were to believe that Durandal was a honest man. He wasn't, so the other conclusion is a natural one.

Originally Posted by Azure22

I'd say Shinn's most severe breach of orders came when he returned Stellar to the Earth Alliance.

Shinn's breaches of his orders was of secondary importance to his overall insubordination.

Originally Posted by Azure22

Ya know, I think I alluded to that...

I know. I linked to the Communism thread because it highlights the strengths and weaknesses of such utopian ideologies very well. I'd go about it in more detail, but this is the wrong thread for that. Suffice it to say, it is effectively impossible for human beings to implement a true Communist system as espoused by Marx. At the most, we would be able to adopt some of its better features. The very same is true of the Destiny Plan. The main difference is that Durandal's plan was even more insane than Marx's.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I think that classifying Athrun as a pure soldier is sort of not in the correct ballpark. Frankly, the second time around, I think Athrun joined ZAFT not to follow ZAFT orders, but to get another gundam, more or less. He joined up so he could do something for Cagalli. In other words, he's more of a knight than a soldier.

I think that it's far more likely that Athrun joined ZAFT because it was finally a place where he could actually belong, and a position where he could make a difference. For the previous two years in Orb, he could do neither. He also never really thought the matter through since an astute observer would realize that Orb was going to gravitate towards the EA's sphere of influence, and that anyone in ZAFT had a good chance of going up against Orb.

[NakedAngelX]

A third series'll certainly be nice, since there's still too much left unknown, but it'll suck if another kira looks like occurs, then we have 4 superman lol.

I hate how now everyone seems to have that "super mode" where
they get those funny eyes and go into pwnage mode, with that
animation of the seed breaking, then they further overkill it by
making some cheap beam that comes out of nowhere and restores the
mobil suits energy in like two seconds, fricken hax.

[ila-chan]

NakedAngelX

Ummm. you do mean 'SEED MODE' right? Because the way you said "super mode'" seems super weird..... and cheap

Not everyone got SEED mode. Only Kira, Athrun. Cagalli, Lacus and Shinn have it. Even if it so, only Kira and Athrun can control it. Cagalli went into SEED once, while it is unconfirmed (by the SEED creative (?) team) that Lacus have SEED mode. Shinn went into SEED mode only in rage. I repeat, SHINN WENT INTO SEED MODE ONLY IN RAGE.

They don't further overkill it by making some cheap beam comes out of nowhere, They just making FREEDOM seems like the god of all GUNDAMs. Forget the fact that the guy cries every two seconds for killing a man....

The energy thingy? Well, have you ever heard the term TECHNOLOGY? IN this era, everything is fast. Get it? FAST. It's logic that they can recharge the battery in like 2 seconds (or whatever seconds)

Seriously, are you really clueless about the background of SEED? Because I think, most of us here at least know a thing or two about its background; not just the characters' development. My advice, read WIKI (even though I don't really believe all the crap in it.....)

[Eidolon Sniper]

As wiki could be edited by just anybody, it is a rather wise decision to stay away from it at all costs if you could.

Also, everything in this era just totally "owns". I mean, grunts suddenly become so powerless against anything that suspiciously looks like a Gundam, and all their technology pales to the technology possessed by the main heroes and it also seems like the show is saying that good can only come if you're VERY technologically advanced and it doesn't matter if you have the talent needed in order to actually make sense out of the fighting that occurs in this series.

In some way, having SEED really does equate in being a "super mode" - forget the supposed higher awareness that people experience during SEED, going against a SEED person will always have that unfortunate victim lose even if the supposed heightened awareness "helped" them in a way. Also, SEED just randomly appears out of nowhere. And sometimes in situations wherein SEED could not be achieved, or rather, in situations where SEED is not needed at all. SEED exists just to make the lead characters look cool.

The technology does not even make sense. I mean, if a guy could survive getting hit by an antimatter beam, I guess it will. In that world, anyway. At least in the 1st SEED, their armor makes sense, because it was the start of the real war using real Gundams, and that it was well advanced for its time. Then halfway, it suddenly became very clear that in order to win a war, one really NEEDS Gundams, and everything else does not matter - whether you're talented, have the right brains needed in order to get the job done without actually succumbing to convenient irregularities of technology, or even have real reason to go against a whole fleet of Gundams because they're just conveniently "disabling" off MS so as not to make them fight and normal rules of space survival does not apply - and of course, they also needed to survive.

I think this was what NakedAngelX was talking about.

Ehem.

Spoiler for wall of text:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's a very astute observation. Shinn respected and obeyed people who had authority as long as they said things that appealed to his worldview. He also preferred simple explanations and arguments to more complicated ones. Rey and Durandal understood this character aspect, and exploited it to the fullest.

I think this was what happened after the Freedomed episode.

Seriously though, Shinn isn't like that. He respected Athrun because he saw Athrun's "worth" as a comrade on the battlefield and because he knows Athrun could even go further than what he showed when Kira sliced his Saviour Gundam. Shinn wasn't even a simple character to begin with. His deep rage at the betrayal of the Athhas, coupled with the fact that another war was happening again and was also dragging innocent people like him (before anyway) into it, was always one of the many major factors that made him act like that. Call it his own way to handle the pressure. He believed Athrun was not only a key that could actually pull everybody together during that disastrous ocean crossing when they were left at the mercy of the EA and Orb fleets and the Archangel combined; he also believed in Athrun enough that he could be counted on when things got a little rough, a fact which he actually found out for himself during the Lohengrin escapade. This is where I think Shinn began to trust Athrun as a person. Athrun during the Lohengrin episode was what he expected of Athrun because he knew he was a veteran of the last war, and probably so because he heard stories about Athrun's ZAFT days that made him feel that Athrun wouldn't do anything stupid and probably put all of their lives in danger. It was Shinn, along with Lunamaria, who brought the real Athrun back...the unsure Athrun before meeting Lacus at the White Symphony...but he was back on track to rediscovering his real reason for fighting. Athrun must have felt that way too because aside from wanting Shinn to meet Kira, he believed Shinn was exactly like him before the first war erupted; he mentioned it himself. Shinn before the Freedomed episode always believed in what he fought for, and his speech to Dullindal during the Meer concert was quite the reflection Shinn had on the new outbreak of war up to that point. It was something he believed in that was carried on throughout his entire ZAFT academy days until it was so spectacularly shafted in the Freedomed episode. I mean, even the 3rd OP credits seemed to agree that Shinn already wasn't the star of his own show at this point. and that means Shinn's popularity must go down fast with hax performance.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Contrast that with Shinn's decisions. Arguably, Shinn worked on a much smaller scale, performing actions that weren't as massive as changing sides. Shinn always did his actions relatively quickly, as well. Disobeying Athrun's orders was one thing, but the returning of Stellar was arguably the biggest defiance that Shinn performed. He didn't take any real deliberation over it. I believe we see him looking upset, and then a few scenes later, he's going ninja on the nurse and busting Stellar out of there. He never truly put thought into it and gave thought to ZAFT's protocols or actions, he just acted out of emotion for Stellar and that was it.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that Shinn's character development suffered in two ways: the first is that he never really suffered from the consequences of his actions. As a result, he never examined those actions and never had much chance to grow.

He didn't suffer? What about the Athrunslap and the Athrunpunch?? How could've you forgotten all about that?? It was what defined Athrun in all his mentor-Bright GLORY!

Seriously though, if you look at the context of physical consequences - getting tried by a higher military court for sneaking Stellar out back to Neo, needlessly destroying a base wherein the entire threat was already neutralized, or basically being an ass as he is to his superiors - well yes, I agree that he didn't suffer anything at all of that sort. But this could also be seen as a parallelism to Kira's actions in the 1st SEED as well. One could argue that Kira was simply doing what he thinks is right, and because he is a civilian who was merely taken into military service at the time of war...ok, better be good next time, no punishment for you. Shinn is at fault because he was already a soldier when the war broke out again, and he should have known better. But Shinn never really was a military man too, unlike Athrun - or maybe, he is like Athrun, who joined the war because he wanted his ideals avenged somehow. But take note that Kira hasn't suffered anything from the first war, as something drastic as what Shinn went through - the same as Athrun (he lost a mother to the Bloody Valentine). Kira did all those nice things because basically he was still a good guy who was rather naive about the military standpoint. He couldn't care less if an enemy who got on his good side wants to go back to his base, because he wanted to - that's Kira for you. No emotional attachment to the morals of the military or anything, because he isn't thinking like your normal, average soldier, and because he isn't a soldier to begin with. Shinn did all those things because he was also basically a good guy as well, that he knew Stellar needed to survive and if he didn't do anything, she will die - just like what happened to Mayu and his parents. But he did that in the in spite of the fact that he is in the military, which is wrong whichever way you put it. But it's still the same principle used by Kira, only, Shinn had an emotional attachment to what he was doing by way of Stellar and actually admitting that he did something unbelievably stupid after, Kira was just simply doing what his civilian moral conscience wanted him to do. Also, Shinn had no qualms whatsoever into getting himself arrested, because he knew what he did was wrong. He didn't ask for Dully to clear him of any charges that could be very well pressed against him. Even if he didn't suffer from the physical consequences, Shinn suffered a great deal inside because everything he held important were so cruelly taken away from him - his parents, Mayu, Stellar - which drove him to just seemingly forget about fighting for his ideals of protecting others from the war, and drove him to killing for pure revenge instead. Thank you, episode 34.

Seriously, if Kira was in Shinn's position, they exchanged places, I bet you guys would also complain about what Kira did lol. Shinn's position is exactly the same as Kira's and Athrun's, in reverse for Kira and the same as Athrun until hell happened....

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

I think this was what happened after the Freedomed episode.

I think that the manipulation started before Shinn got assigned to Impulse.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Seriously though, Shinn isn't like that. He respected Athrun because he saw Athrun's "worth" as a comrade on the battlefield and because he knows Athrun could even go further than what he showed when Kira sliced his Saviour Gundam.

While Shinn may have thought that Athrun's was worthy as a soldier, he never gave him much respect as a leader.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Shinn wasn't even a simple character to begin with.

Au contraire. Shinn had a simple worldview, simple motivations, and simple conflicts. As I said earlier, he may be a realistic character, but not a particularly difficult one to figure out.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

His deep rage at the betrayal of the Athhas

What betrayal?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

I mean, even the 3rd OP credits seemed to agree that Shinn already wasn't the star of his own show at this point.

He never really was. I'd say that the protagonist of Destiny is Durandal.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

One could argue that Kira was simply doing what he thinks is right, and because he is a civilian who was merely taken into military service at the time of war...ok, better be good next time, no punishment for you.

You're confusing punishment with suffering. The two don't necessarily have anything in common.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Also, Shinn had no qualms whatsoever into getting himself arrested, because he knew what he did was wrong. He didn't ask for Dully to clear him of any charges that could be very well pressed against him. Even if he didn't suffer from the physical consequences, Shinn suffered a great deal inside because everything he held important were so cruelly taken away from him - his parents, Mayu, Stellar - which drove him to just seemingly forget about fighting for his ideals of protecting others from the war, and drove him to killing for pure revenge instead. Thank you, episode 34.

Since he saw none of these consequences as a result of his own actions, Shinn couldn't grow from them. Moreover, only the Stellar situation occured in the series proper, and the rest is much less relevant for this discussion.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Seriously, if Kira was in Shinn's position, they exchanged places, I bet you guys would also complain about what Kira did lol. Shinn's position is exactly the same as Kira's and Athrun's, in reverse for Kira and the same as Athrun until hell happened....

The real issue doesn't have anything to do with Shinn's character per se (although some people don't like the fact that he comes off like a jerk). It's far more about the way his character grew (or didn't grow, in this particular case). Durandal and Rey were careful to make sure that Shinn didn't have to suffer, thereby increasing the chance that he wouldn't seriously challenge the arguments they fed him.

Kira is so different from Shinn that if they were to exchange positions, he would have behaved totally differently. In fact, they're so dissimilar that it's awfully hard to see how they could even end up in the same positions. Athrun is much more similar to Shinn, but they're still different in fundamental ways.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Kira is so different from Shinn that if they were to exchange positions, he would have behaved totally differently. In fact, they're so dissimilar that it's awfully hard to see how they could even end up in the same positions. Athrun is much more similar to Shinn, but they're still different in fundamental ways.

4tran i think Eidolon Sniper is referring To the actions of Kira and Shinn when it comes to returning individuals to their respective nations.... Also i would have to say that if kira had to make a choice to save stellers life knowing..

1 The pilot may die without proper medical treatment

2 The pilot will become a lab rat

Im quite sure with Kira's good natured ways, that he would taken the same course of action as shinn did. But if he did would he received the same negative response as shinn has?

And i think this is what Eidolon Sniper was trying to say when she mentioned about kira and shinn swapping places, but didnt quite come out the right way. But i could be wrong here..

(TBH i beleive Kira and Co returning lacus the daughter of the President back to ZAFT is far more STUPID then Shinn returning steller a pilot back to EAF)

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by winter45

Im quite sure with Kira's good natured ways, that he would taken the same course of action as shinn did. But if he did would he received the same negative response as shinn has?

That's an unfair statement to make as it is, because you're implying that Kira, just by virtue of being Kira, would not have received the criticism that Shinn did. The reason Shinn received so much criticism was partially because of the way he went about it. He assaulted a ZAFT nurse in order to bust Stellar out, and would likely have taken on the ZAFT infantry personnel that confronted him had Rey not knocked them out for him. Shinn even seemed ready to take Rey on, until Rey showed that he was on Shinn's side.

We can directly compare this with how Kira returned Lacus. Did he bust her out of there, using his godly coordinator powers to knock everyone in his way out? No - he snuck her out as best he could during the ship's off-hours. When his friends found him out, Kira did not look like fighting was on his mind at all.

Both characters were doing what they thought was right. In Kira's case, I believe that it appealed to more viewers that Kira was doing what was right, while in Shinn's case, I get the impression that only a minority of viewers felt that Shinn was doing what was right. That all has to do with how everything was being portrayed - Lacus' usage as a hostage was portrayed in a very negative light, while Stellar's treatment was given overall neutral portrayal - if anything, you get the idea that whether she's with ZAFT or returned to the Earth Alliance, she's screwed (I felt that she had better chances with ZAFT, myself). Regardless of which group you fall into, Shinn's methodology implies arrogance and brute power, while Kira's showed a sort of innocence revealing his desire to avoid and end conflict. Kira's methodology was much more appealing.

With that said, had Kira performed the return of Stellar in the way that he performed the return of Lacus, I do not believe that he would have received the criticism that Shinn had. But had Kira acted the way that Shinn did in the return of Lacus, I don't believe that his characterization in that part of the series would have had such appeal.

(TBH i beleive Kira and Co returning lacus the daughter of the President back to ZAFT is far more STUPID then Shinn returning steller a pilot back to EAF)

Returning a peace activist to the enemy is more stupid than returning an able-bodied and highly skilled pilot to the enemy? Really...?

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That's an unfair statement to make as it is, because you're implying that Kira, just by virtue of being Kira, would not have received the criticism that Shinn did. The reason Shinn received so much criticism was partially because of the way he went about it. He assaulted a ZAFT nurse in order to bust Stellar out, and would likely have taken on the ZAFT infantry personnel that confronted him had Rey not knocked them out for him. Shinn even seemed ready to take Rey on, until Rey showed that he was on Shinn's side.

We can directly compare this with how Kira returned Lacus. Did he bust her out of there, using his godly coordinator powers to knock everyone in his way out? No - he snuck her out as best he could during the ship's off-hours. When his friends found him out, Kira did not look like fighting was on his mind at all.

Ledgem i was very careful not to imply *how* kira would of taken steller out of the affirmary. There *could* of been a million ways of achieving that. Im pointing out if kira in the same position had a choice would he of done the same and returned the pilot?

But then right and wrongs of characters actions in their current situation are different from each individual viewer. But it doesnt help Shinn that steller is incapicatated and strap down to a bed moniterd by medical staff. So its a case where he had to use force to get her out.

So what would kira do if there were guards standing outside lacus door?, or his friends betrayed him and notified the captain or the Captain orders to use force (non lethal) to stop kira?

But we all know this didnt happen. But its unfortunate the directors didnt put up a decent attempt to try to put some basic military procedures when it comes to prisoners or confinements.

But ignoring some of these simple miltary procedures does help to make kira look right. So when you remove the simple little things it does help the producers to make a character look right or wrong.

At the same time i also know this show is not ment to be realistic. But it does make me scratch my head thinking what would happen to the charcters if RL military procedures were implemented to the show.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Returning a peace activist to the enemy is more stupid than returning an able-bodied and highly skilled pilot to the enemy? Really...?

Yes really
Having a daughter of the President your currently at war with (ZAFT) could be a greater tool to achieve EAF goals (Politically) then a soldier who can be expendable at any time on the battlefield.

You can force the president to make decisions that will have a negative impact to his nation and councilmen. This may lead to leadership questioning if he does accept EAF terms as well it could question his popularity to the public if he doesnt comply considering that lacus is a idolised singer and may reflect his next election if harm has been done to lacus.

A soldier who is effective is a tool in war regardless of role he plays... A skilled machine gunner can shoot down low flyin plane.. A skilled tank gunner can shoot down helicopters with their main canon. But at the end a soldier is a soldier. A country/nation can get enlisted men/women from anywhere. But not everyone is related to a political figure like a president. So in this case Lacus is more valuable than a soldier as a hostage/prisoner.

Ledgum i see where your coming from but i try to look at the other side of the coin.

But sometimes it is hard for me to seperate reality to fiction sometimes. But im just voicing my opinions here and no flamin intended

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

4tran i think Eidolon Sniper is referring To the actions of Kira and Shinn when it comes to returning individuals to their respective nations.... Also i would have to say that if kira had to make a choice to save stellers life knowing..

It doesn't matter too much even if that was the case. Shinn and Kira are still very different characters who have different different motives for doing things, and who employ different methods. I didn't think that Shinn returning Stellar was worthy of too much condemnation to begin with; the only thing that I have much problem with was his attitude.

Originally Posted by winter45

But we all know this didnt happen. But its unfortunate the directors didnt put up a decent attempt to try to put some basic military procedures when it comes to prisoners or confinements.

You do realize that you're talking about a Gundam show, don't you?

Originally Posted by winter45

At the same time i also know this show is not ment to be realistic. But it does make me scratch my head thinking what would happen to the charcters if RL military procedures were implemented to the show.

Nothing would happen to Kira since he was a civilian - at most, he'd be removed as Strike's pilot. Shinn would have been brought up on charges, and convicted at his court-martial.

Originally Posted by winter45

You can force the president to make decisions that will have a negative impact to his nation and councilmen. This may lead to leadership questioning if he does accept EAF terms as well it could question his popularity to the public if he doesnt comply considering that lacus is a idolised singer and may reflect his next election if harm has been done to lacus.

To start with, Lacus was a civilian, and OMNI doesn't have the authority to detain civilians. Next, hostages are useful during peacetime, but as soon as a shooting war breaks out, their value drops drastically. Furthermore, any attempt to use Lacus as a bargaining chip would only erode the EA's position with the rest of the world and risk escalation of the war.

[aeriolewinters]

But 4tran, civilian or not... Lacus is still an important figurehead for ZAFT. Ask the Japanese of what they did to Wendy Earhart.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by winter45

Ledgem i was very careful not to imply *how* kira would of taken steller out of the affirmary. There *could* of been a million ways of achieving that. Im pointing out if kira in the same position had a choice would he of done the same and returned the pilot?

I noticed that, but you were stating it to support another assertion that you made later in your post:

Im quite sure with Kira's good natured ways, that he would taken the same course of action as shinn did. But if he did would he received the same negative response as shinn has?

I bolded the aspect that I'm responding to. I agreed with you that perhaps Kira would have taken the same course of action - in fact, he did perform the exact same course of action, albeit under different circumstances. I was explaining that the reason why Kira did not receive such negativity that Shinn did wasn't simply because Kira is Kira, as you seemed to be implying, but due to the way that the characters are portrayed. Like it or not, Shinn is portrayed as an arrogant hot-head, which makes it very difficult to like him at all. I was actually surprised to find that anyone on this forum was a fan of Shinn - they're in the minority, though. Not surprising.

But then right and wrongs of characters actions in their current situation are different from each individual viewer. But it doesnt help Shinn that steller is incapicatated and strap down to a bed moniterd by medical staff. So its a case where he had to use force to get her out.

It's useless to argue the what-if's on this one - perhaps Kira wouldn't have even attempted to get Stellar out of ZAFT. As I said, in my opinion, Shinn was totally warped to try and get Stellar out of there. He overheard a conversation about how Stellar's condition was dropping, she needed to get to a better facility, and if she died- if she died - they'd perform an autopsy on her. Sorry, but that sounds fair to me. They weren't saying "we want to perform a million experiments on her" or that they'd kill her themselves.

So Shinn returns her to the Earth Alliance, because they're the ones who essentially created her, and the ones who'd know how to restore her health. That's great and wonderfully short-sighted. Shinn witnessed first-hand the facility where the Earth Alliance was terrible enough to perform all of the experiments in the first place, and to create such "living weapons" - to return Stellar and expect that they'd just restore her and let her live on without fighting anymore was incredibly naive. It was also very foolish, as it cost a city and a number of lives at the hands of the Destroy, piloted by Stellar.

Yes really
Having a daughter of the President your currently at war with (ZAFT) could be a greater tool to achieve EAF goals (Politically) then a soldier who can be expendable at any time on the battlefield.

You can force the president to make decisions that will have a negative impact to his nation and councilmen. This may lead to leadership questioning if he does accept EAF terms as well it could question his popularity to the public if he doesnt comply considering that lacus is a idolised singer and may reflect his next election if harm has been done to lacus.

4Tran covered this one, but I wanted to respond as well. Perhaps with a dictatorship this might be effective, but a president would not have that sort of authority. He might lose power within the greater government if he tried to make irrational decisions, but he'd be subdued, most likely. I believe that the fact that Lacus is an idolized singer rather than a soldier would boost ZAFT's morale in the conflict. Think of it this way: instead of having Lacus running around the plants, singing about how fighting is bad and we should all be peaceful, you'd have her cooped up with ZAFT going crazy and feeling like they were up against the ultimate evil?

A soldier who is effective is a tool in war regardless of role he plays... A skilled machine gunner can shoot down low flyin plane.. A skilled tank gunner can shoot down helicopters with their main canon. But at the end a soldier is a soldier. A country/nation can get enlisted men/women from anywhere. But not everyone is related to a political figure like a president. So in this case Lacus is more valuable than a soldier as a hostage/prisoner.

Ah, but in the world of Gundam, a single pilot can take down an entire country's fleet. As 4Tran pointed out, hostages are useful during times of peace, and rapidly lose their value during times of war - if anything, I'd say that they're a good way to incite further resentment against your side. That means more people wanting to fight you, and with a greater fighting drive. Morale can make and break victories, and it has done so in history. Not that Gundam tries to be realistic, of course...

Originally Posted by aeriolwinters

But 4tran, civilian or not... Lacus is still an important figurehead for ZAFT. Ask the Japanese of what they did to Wendy Earhart.

Lacus was important, but are you suggesting that just because the Earth Alliance took Lacus hostage that everyone in ZAFT would lay down their arms and submit? As I mentioned above, I think that the plant government would have an easier time demonizing the Earth Alliance and the "Naturals" which would lead to increased recruitment for ZAFT. Lacus' father was not the dictator of the plants nor ZAFT, and he was already pushing for peace. Holding her hostage would not alter his actions for the better - if anything, perhaps he'd become upset enough to change his stances to be more warhawkish. Lacus' worth as a hostage is, in my mind, more like holding an explosive. If they'd held her for too long, the situation would have badly been turned against them (and they were already in very bad standing for having nuked a civilian plant). Had they released her to ZAFT, she would have been free to carry out her peace activities, lowering ZAFT's morale to continue fighting.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But 4tran, civilian or not... Lacus is still an important figurehead for ZAFT.

There's two slightly different issues here: the first is that while Lacus is an important figure in PLANT, she is of very limited use as a hostage in the first place. Hostages can be used to influence policy, but only when a country isn't entirely committed to said policy to begin with. Given the almost-total war situation in Cosmic Era 71, it's hard to imagine PLANT doing anything beneficial for the EA because she was being held. The second is that as a civilian, Lacus' value as a hostage is irrelevant - OMNI simply doesn't have the right to do anything to her at all. If they were to violate their own stated principles, then they'd lose far more in political support than they would gain by such actions.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Ask the Japanese of what they did to Wendy Earhart.

Who's Wendy Earhart?

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If they'd held her for too long, the situation would have badly been turned against them (and they were already in very bad standing for having nuked a civilian plant). Had they released her to ZAFT, she would have been free to carry out her peace activities, lowering ZAFT's morale to continue fighting.

More to the point, releasing Lacus could be spun as a gesture of goodwill - perhaps even lessening tensions or leading to more constructive negotiations.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Who's Wendy Earhart?

I don't know if your response was sarcastic or not, so...

He means Amelia Earhart and the myths that she was A) captured and executed by Japanese on Saipan or B) was compelled to be Tokyo Rose.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Really? I thought Amelia Earhart just got lost....O.o;;

@ 4Tran

Really? Well, I wouldn't want to drag the Philippine scenario in here, but that is similar to what happened in real life. And we were bashed by Bush about it, I think. so yes, there ARE instances that happen wherein countries could actually go against their supposed beliefs at the expense of people involved - saving one life against the majority of all those people who are thinking otherwise. And I am pretty sure we (as in Filipinos who think that way in the light of what happened just then) are just a small number who think otherwise, and "cold" at that. Anyway, the issue here is simply the effects that particular random act of kindness could do to future decisions later - if people expect to be saved every single time they're going to get pulled out of their homes to serve as hostages, then there would be no end for people to do just that because they know governments would be willing to trade the lives of their constituents for any darn reason that they could very well think of. Or something that could even actually derail their policies or ideals even more.

@ Ledgem

Shinn was in effect doing all those things in the military context, that is why everything about what Shinn did is essentially wrong. Kira did all those things because it was seen through the civilian context, so perhaps he could be better forgiven for what he did as "he didn't know any better". If Kira was in Shinn's situation, everything would change. Also, Shinn is actually Kira who just had a very bad day - you could say that the 4th ending song of Destiny showed Shinn's character's parallelism to Kira's except they were made to grow up in different circumstances; Shinn = military, Kira = civilian. Shinn didn't want anything like that to happen, he seriously believed he was fighting for his ideals, and he was fighting for his ideals until the latter half of Destiny made it that way. He joined ZAFT to protect the memory of his sister and protect others from not having the same bad experience he had during the last war and use his own power to protect them - he knew he didn't have much, that is why he knows he has to go all out to protecting them especially seen in the Athrun Saviored ep. Kira essentially joined EA in order to protect his friends from the war simply because he knows that only he has the power to do so. Forget Shinn and Kira for a moment. It simply boils down to a simple point - they both wanted to protect their loved ones and people from experiencing the harsh realities of war, or some other damn thing. That is why they are similar in such aspects - that is maybe the reason why Athrun wanted them to meet each other.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Shinn was in effect doing all those things in the military context, that is why everything about what Shinn did is essentially wrong. Kira did all those things because it was seen through the civilian context, so perhaps he could be better forgiven for what he did as "he didn't know any better".

I think another difference is that while Lacus never really did much until later in the story (and even then to help the protagonist), Stellar ended up becoming a key factor in the Berlin attack soon afterwards. So, although both have good intentions, not all people are willing to overlook bad outcomes just because of good intentions.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

I don't know if your response was sarcastic or not, so...

He means Amelia Earhart and the myths that she was A) captured and executed by Japanese on Saipan or B) was compelled to be Tokyo Rose.

There's no sarcasm on my part. I'm familiar with Amelia Earhart (although I'm not sure how she's relevant to this topic), but I prefer not guessing that "Wendy Earhart" was referring to her.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Really? Well, I wouldn't want to drag the Philippine scenario in here, but that is similar to what happened in real life. And we were bashed by Bush about it, I think. so yes, there ARE instances that happen wherein countries could actually go against their supposed beliefs at the expense of people involved - saving one life against the majority of all those people who are thinking otherwise.

This point is exactly why I wrote "Hostages can be used to influence policy, but only when a country isn't entirely committed to said policy to begin with" earlier. The Philippines wasn't all that committed to its Iraq deployment, so they abandoned it fairly easily. This is not at all analogous to PLANT in Cosmic Era 71.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Anyway, the issue here is simply the effects that particular random act of kindness could do to future decisions later - if people expect to be saved every single time they're going to get pulled out of their homes to serve as hostages, then there would be no end for people to do just that because they know governments would be willing to trade the lives of their constituents for any darn reason that they could very well think of. Or something that could even actually derail their policies or ideals even more.

This isn't the issue at all. Moreover, the belief that they'll get bailed out of troublespots isn't the reason why people get trapped in them to begin with.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Shinn was in effect doing all those things in the military context, that is why everything about what Shinn did is essentially wrong. Kira did all those things because it was seen through the civilian context, so perhaps he could be better forgiven for what he did as "he didn't know any better".

This may play a part in how some people view Shinn, but it's a bit of a false cause. Kira's personality didn't change at all whether he was in the military or not, and based on his attitude, Shinn didn't know the first thing about discipline. Ironically, if Kira had been part of Archangel's military complement to begin with, he might well have been compelled to release Lacus.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

It simply boils down to a simple point - they both wanted to protect their loved ones and people from experiencing the harsh realities of war, or some other damn thing. That is why they are similar in such aspects - that is maybe the reason why Athrun wanted them to meet each other.

They have this in common with around 90% of the shounen action protagonists out there, so it doesn't mean a whole lot. Personality wise, they're almost completely different.

[Ayame_]

Hey i got a quick seed destiny question, i didnt want to waste a new thread on it, and i hope im not spamming this thread, if so just delete this.

but is Destiny been completely dubbed and aired yet?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Ayame_

but is Destiny been completely dubbed and aired yet?

Since you seem to be in Canada, YTV should be about halfway through its broadcast. It's probably been completely dubbed into English by now since that version of Destiny seems to have started its Phillipines broadcast last year.

[D-KLAC]

yeah GSD english was seen on cn phils last june 06 & besides the phils was the 1st to show GSD english so hurray for the pinoy to see GSD in english 1st also that dvd of GSD was on sale since march 06 with a new volume coming every 2 months with the next in nov.

& besides it takes 2 years to GSD in english from GSD jap in 04 to GSD english in 06

[Eidolon Sniper]

If you ask me, I like the Philippine dubbing better. It just doesn't help that CN dubbers make me think of Beyblade CN in all the anime they do dub....*o*

Spoiler for space for wall of text!:

@ 4Tran

Hmm, based on how our President was so eager for fighting alongside Bush in the Iraq war makes me wonder INDEED... and I guess you should've been here when that was such a big issue in the Philippines. We do get the same extremist attacks every now and then, and hell we do "believe" what our President says, especially when she decided to send the medical mission or something to Iraq when its' liberation from Hussein began. She was all gung-ho about it. And some went when she retracted her pro war on Iraq stance/decision after that incident...if she can't make good with her promise she should've just left when the entire world was in uproar about that Iraq decision... I think we were one of the countries who stood behind Bush on the war in Iraq when even the UN is asking him not to go ahead with the plan. So I guess she was more or less determined to see the end of that Iraq tyranny and sent her support through the medical mission.

I wasn't even saying that's the reason why people would want to get trapped in the middle of a hostage taking crisis in the first place. Where did you get that idea? I was merely saying that if they do get trapped by such hostage taking crises (I believe we're in the middle of one again, this time in Nigeria...), people would then expect the Philippines to fold again to what the hostage taker demands. It has already done so before; the Philippines can't back out now because of what they did because if they didn't do anything for this particular person, they would be accused as having double standards or what have you. Of course, in something like this, it's the humane aspect that the country should be showing, and to that effect, saving the hostage is first priority above everything else. But then again you can't save every single person who goes through such a crisis, and to that effect, it could seem heartless for the people who happen to be relatives of that guy who was kidnapped. Casualties of war on ideals or what have you. They didn't ask to get kidnapped; they are there because they have to so that their families back home would have a better life, and then shit happens. It's always the innocent people who have to put up with this. And it's hard to explain to them or make them understand that the world really isn't such a nice place after all, because face it, it wasn't our own friends or relatives who were trapped in that faraway country and in effect these people get crazier every single passing day because they don't even know if they will see them again alive. And don't get me started on the "now you see them, now you don't" routine here that has also earned an uproar on the part of all journalists in the world.

Anyway, saying Shinn wasn't Kira at some point...well, of course they aren't. But Shinn before he lost his family...you could say that they do exhibit the same personality because they were essentially nice people who had just seen the effects of war and had to deal with it in his own way. Shinn lost an entire family right before his very eyes, and do you expect people who experience that to become enlightened about war right away? It takes time for them to heal and get on with their life, and some turn out even worse. Shinn was close to his parents and is especially close to Mayu...as an older brother he felt that he failed Mayu, he failed to protect Mayu...that is how older brothers think, anyway. I have a younger brother, and I feel terrible when he becomes sad because in some way I feel I am responsible for my younger brother's sadness. I am pretty sure you would feel that way too toward your younger siblings. So Shinn promised himself to get on with the war and try protecting innocent people somehow because he also felt responsible for them in a way, as he now sees those people part of Mayu's memory. Kira did all those things to an effect the same way as Shinn, but he managed to deal with it his own way or so. Kira and discipline? I guess you have forgotten how he didn't want to pilot Strike and was acting all distrustful about it. It took Fllay and his other friends to persuade him to pilot Strike. Of course, he was a civilian at that time, and it is understandable. And yes, that discipline also covers how he managed to help Lacus escape. Talking about discipline in the military sense would not earn him Brownie points for that. I mean, he should've at least got hints that he was no civilian anymore, drafted into the EA as he was already, and that there is no such thing as civilian reactions in that context. Then the infamous Kira twisting Ssigh's arm incident; talk about military discipline, it also won't earn Kira Brownie points. Kira acted on his raw emotions there. How could you even say Kira was disciplined through and through? Shinn had a loving family whom he cares about, and I guess all people who came from loving families wouldn't produce deviants for some obscure reason; Shinn acting like an ass before he got drafted into ZAFT has no basis at all. He acted that way after losing his family and enlisting in ZAFT. Kira was acting like Kira until he was forced to "grow" at the latter half of the series. But then again, he still exhibited his civilian tendencies when he heard Fllay's voice. So there. Shinn was/could've been a Kira until that single incident.