[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I was under the impression that red referred to Ange and was tossed at her just in case the living Battler was someone else, as a way to obliterate any possible person Ange might hope would come to her rescue.

I also read it as being tossed at Ange, since she is the one responding to it.
It's still interesting regarding Tohya, since this being in Red, it kind of confirms that Tohya is being busy with other things than actually helping Ange.

Going on... I can't remember if it was said before but I'm starting to think that the present Ange received at the Halloween party was the pen she's holding in her hands in Chap 36.

I might have mentioned it before, but yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. The focus on the pen is just too well placed, when Ange tells Okonogi about the future she decided to pursue. Also, it has the one-winged eagle crest on it.
I suppose it might have been sent to Ange, maybe even alongside Twilight (if it actually existed in textual form within Ange's world), it also gives another sad layer to the moment when Bad-Ending Ange throws the present into the ocean, thus refusing her future as a writer.

even if it's sort of weird how now her courage of telling him everything is faltering and she's sort of asking him to guess everything when in Prime she ended up tattling out almost everything.

Well, she knows that this is the contract she entered. If we look at it from the meta-world perspective, then this is the part of the contract where she has to present countless tales to Lambdadelta as compensation for the power she received. In this she also gets a chance to (a) make Battler remember her on her terms and (b) have a chance that he will come to a conclusion that gives at least her story a happy ending.
This would give a whole new layer of sad to EP4 and 5, since she had this moment of happiness in the palm of her hands, she told him everything once and she accepted her, but she was too afraid to take his hand and instead fled into her stories/suicide. She believed that he would find her in her stories, but Battler failed again and again.

This also reminded me of something that Beato said to Ange when she was talking to her in the Golden Land:
"I ran and ran and ran. And because I kept running, reality never changed. I chose this place as my final escape. Listen, Ange. If I had lived in this body, I might have experienced untold happiness... Had I searched for an option that I was unable to see...If I had been able to live in reality...Had I at least been able to hold out my hand without fear...I think...there would have been a completely different outcome for me. One where I might have clutched unto it, in that moment where I was able to think that living might not be that bad."

Basically chap 37 implied that Battler and Beato in the meta are the souls of the two of them. Does this mean... that Beatrice's soul died in Ep 5? So the Beatrice Battler recreated in Ep 6 is... what?

Yes, in a way I would say Beatrice's soul died. In terms of actual events, I'd say this marks Tohya realizing the truth (through CotGW perhaps) and thus the chance of Beato being alive vanishing.
The Beatrice Battler created in EP6 is what Beato herself said, not her, but in a way her daughter. She is the Beato of Battler's memory, everything that he learnt and understood and remembered is in her, but she is not the actual Beatrice/Sayo. This also marks him having to come to terms with the fact that Sayo died because he was too late.

I like to think at Clair as a personification of Confession but... I'm not sure.

I like that idea. As she says, she is just there to read the story, a personification of Sayo's tales. It would also explain why all the horrible memories start bleeding out of her once Bern slices her open.

Ep 6 doesn't have Sayo as the murderer and eveyrone accepts her ence she wouldn't have written that one either... I guess it's a game with too much love :P).

Well, we already have confirmation from the EP8 manga that Dawn is the story that Battler wrote for Beato and put in her coffin during EP7. It's the story in which noone is at fault and everybody can be happy in the end. Though of course Bern (the reader without love) tried to destroy that with her own interpretation.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I also read it as being tossed at Ange, since she is the one responding to it.
It's still interesting regarding Tohya, since this being in Red, it kind of confirms that Tohya is being busy with other things than actually helping Ange.

Well, more than him being busy I'll say it's more like Ange can't rely on him, likely because she hadn't managed to meet him.

After all we know Tohya refused to meet her when she asked... but this doesn't mean he wasn't worrying about her.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I might have mentioned it before, but yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. The focus on the pen is just too well placed, when Ange tells Okonogi about the future she decided to pursue. Also, it has the one-winged eagle crest on it.
I suppose it might have been sent to Ange, maybe even alongside Twilight (if it actually existed in textual form within Ange's world), it also gives another sad layer to the moment when Bad-Ending Ange throws the present into the ocean, thus refusing her future as a writer.

I checked if it could be it was the present Ange got for its past birthday as I remembered the box being of a similar shape... but the manga depict that box as slightly different from the one from the one represented in Ep 8.
It'll be interesting if the present and Twilight were actually sent to Ange by Tohya... we'll see if the new chapter will shed some light on this.
And yes, Ange throwing everything away makes it even more sadder.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, she knows that this is the contract she entered. If we look at it from the meta-world perspective, then this is the part of the contract where she has to present countless tales to Lambdadelta as compensation for the power she received. In this she also gets a chance to (a) make Battler remember her on her terms and (b) have a chance that he will come to a conclusion that gives at least her story a happy ending.
This would give a whole new layer of sad to EP4 and 5, since she had this moment of happiness in the palm of her hands, she told him everything once and she accepted her, but she was too afraid to take his hand and instead fled into her stories/suicide. She believed that he would find her in her stories, but Battler failed again and again.

Alternatively it could as well be just the remaining memory of Beato that existed in Tohya's memory and things in the real world might have gone at a way slower pace than they seem to go there. After all it'll take time before Tohya will become aware of the existence of Legend... (I remember you made an attempt to calculate it due to the net being available but I can't remember which year you came up with... sorry...) so in a way it can be that the meta is nothing else but the fantasy representation of what was going on in Tohya's mind.
LOL, the fantasy layer of the psychological layer.

Originally Posted by haguruma

This also reminded me of something that Beato said to Ange when she was talking to her in the Golden Land:
"I ran and ran and ran. And because I kept running, reality never changed. I chose this place as my final escape. Listen, Ange. If I had lived in this body, I might have experienced untold happiness... Had I searched for an option that I was unable to see...If I had been able to live in reality...Had I at least been able to hold out my hand without fear...I think...there would have been a completely different outcome for me. One where I might have clutched unto it, in that moment where I was able to think that living might not be that bad."

While I love that whole thing in a way it feels weird to have Beato say it. That Beato is supposed to be Chick Beato, not the real Beato. But somehow in Ep 8 Chick Beato and real Beato are considered one and the same.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yes, in a way I would say Beatrice's soul died. In terms of actual events, I'd say this marks Tohya realizing the truth (through CotGW perhaps) and thus the chance of Beato being alive vanishing.
The Beatrice Battler created in EP6 is what Beato herself said, not her, but in a way her daughter. She is the Beato of Battler's memory, everything that he learnt and understood and remembered is in her, but she is not the actual Beatrice/Sayo. This also marks him having to come to terms with the fact that Sayo died because he was too late.

Well, in a twisted way it can trace a parallel to Prime's truth yes.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I like that idea. As she says, she is just there to read the story, a personification of Sayo's tales. It would also explain why all the horrible memories start bleeding out of her once Bern slices her open.

Yes, and it's interesting because this makes the red about Kinzo's staging the murder of the other soldiers completely opinable. Sayo didn't know the truth about it, she just speculated it due to Genji not reassuring her of the contrary... but since Genji had been pretty prone to tell her the worst about Kinzo, it might be Genji just don't know. However as she believes in this sort of truth, it became true in the gameboards. That red can very well be just a gameboard red and not just a Prime red. I guess we'll never know.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, we already have confirmation from the EP8 manga that Dawn is the story that Battler wrote for Beato and put in her coffin during EP7. It's the story in which noone is at fault and everybody can be happy in the end. Though of course Bern (the reader without love) tried to destroy that with her own interpretation.

Well, I'll say they'll be happy in the meta because on the gameboard they'll end up dead all the same but yes, in a way it's a game with plenty of love. LOL, Erika even complained that there was too much love and love talks... ^_-

[haguruma]

The time has come.
Please, let's all spent a moment of silence before we depart on this final journey together. The last chapter of Umineko Episode 8 is here, and with it we end our journey and arrive at...

Spoiler for Final Chapter: Golden Land:

Banner:
Ryûjinja Literature Award Ceremony

Narration:
And time flows...

Announcer:
Next I would like to move your attention to the category of novels.
The winning work should be well known to you all, Ladies and Gentlemen, as a series that caused a worldwide movement.
Continuing the unbroken advance of the fantasy adventure novel "Sakutaro's Great Adventure"!
Congratulations, Kotobuki Yukari-sensei!!

Narration:
The journey ends, and leads to the village of gold.

Announcer:
In the series "Sakutaro's Great Adventure"we follow the journey of a cowardly, vegetarian lion named Sakutaro, as he meets companions, and grows while working hard for "that one treasured fragment", in a thrilling fantasy adventure.
You might all be aware of the fact that the key-phrase "I will become the king of animals" has been nominated for the award of Word of the Year.
Along with the start of its foreign language release last year, it experienced as a breakthrough as a novel read by children and adults alike, and received high praise which lead to todays award.

Yukari:
I am very grateful and consider this award a high honor.

Announcer:
It seems the eighth entry in the series, "Sakutaro: Towards the Island of the Witch," has caused a huge public reaction.
It was reported that Kotobuki-sensei was diagnosed with an early stage of cancer while writing, but continued hitting the keyboard even while battling her illness.
What is the source of this level of enthusiasm?

Yukari:
I am not finished passing on what I have yet to communicate...
With every one new work that I write
if it manages to make just one more child understand the method of finding happiness
I want to use up my life to write that one work or even one page more.
I am not yet done with telling the important lessons that I was gifted with...

Agent:
Kotobuki-sensei!
I honestly want to congratulate you an the award!
The film adaptation also got only the best reviews and has the power to even succeed "Hari the Potter".

Yukari:
Thank you, it is an honour...

Agent:
Oh no, no, please remain seated!
I hear you are still in the recovery phase...!
I am sorry, my name is Marumaru, head of the editing department of Marumaru Publishing.
I actually have something very sudden to tell you...
Are you familiar with Hachijô Tôya-sensei, the mystery author?

Yukari:
Hachijô...Tôya...

Agent:
You are familiar with Hachijô-sensei? Might you even have met at some point?

Yukari:
Yes...
A long time ago...just once...

Flashback:
No way...
Eva-obasan's...
diary?

Agent:
You see, Hachijô Tôya-sensei actually inquired about you.
There is high interest in a private meeting.

Yukari:
With...me?

Agent:
Yes.
Not a phone conversation, but an actual private meeting face to face...
If you would be so kind as to agree, I will take it upon myself to arrange the setting...
Of course I assure you, this is not a work-related conversation.

Yukari:
I have not encountered Hachijô Tôya
after that one certain incident.
At that time I actually loathed her, who was the leading force behind the Rokkenjima mystery as a forgery author, but now I am actually quite grateful to her.
Due to the "Opening of Ushiromiya Eva's Diary Event" that she headed and then cancelled, she returned an amount of critical thinking to toying around with a tragedy, and the Rokkenjima mystery drew to an end.
As if it had been the push I had needed, I stepped into my new life after that.
It has all been reconciled now, but at the time I was involved in great trouble with the Sumadera family,
to avoid them I changed my name and moved into a new environment.
Due to this, there is only a handful of people who know of my whereabouts, and of course that "Kotobuki Yukari" is "Ange"...
It wouldn't be weird for "her" to notice my true identity...
but why would she ask for a meeting now of all times?
I agree. So could I ask you to arrange a meeting in a quiet café, next week on Sunday?

Agent:
Yes, I am sure Hachijô-sensei will be more than happy...

Yukari:
But I would like to keep this meeting between just Hachijô-sensei and me.

Agent:
Uhm, actually there is...a secret that I have to tell you...

Yukari:
What?

Agent:
To tell you the truth...we present Hachijô-sensei as a single female writer to the public, but....
Actually she is working with one more male author...
and they both asked to meet with you......

Yukari:
I always had my doubts...
Why did Hachijô Tôya arrive at a truth that was so exceedingly close to something that "only I had seen"?
Why was a person with no ties to the Ushiromiya family able to write inside information with so much accuracy?

Agent (memory):
Actually she is working with one more male author...

Yukari:
Could it be that, when "Sakutaro's Great Adventure" was showered with so much praise this year, the name "Kotobuki Yukari" reached his ears?
A person who knows that "I" had played with a stuffed lion called Sakutaro, together with Maria-oneechan...
He, who had detective novels stacked in his room, would have the skill to solve that mystery
People who fit this description are so very limited
No
I can only think
of him alone...

Ikuko:
Are you Kotobuki Yukari-sensei?

Yukari:
Yes...I am Kotobuki Yukari...!

Ikuko:
It has been quite a while. Last we met I went by the name Hachijô Tôya.
I am Hachijô Ikuko.
I am mostly in charge of the writing.
And this is Tôya.
He is mostly in charge of the drafts.

Yukari:
.................
Hachijô-sensei, you have not changed the slightest bit since we last met.

Ikuko:
Witches do not age.

Yukari:
Well...
I am sorry to pry...but are you two married?

Ikuko:
We are not married, but we have been together for quite a long time.

Tôya:
Quite true...thinking about it, it has been quite some time...

Yukari:
I am glad...
At least he has not been lonely during all this time...

Ikuko:
Well then...
Shall I speak? Or will you take the part, Tôya?

Tôya:
I will speak for myself.
I have not asked for the impossible today for nothing.
I came here
convinced that you might be the person I believe you to be.
Her name is Ushiromiya Ange...
By your works and your name, I am certain that you are Ushiromiya Ange, without any doubt.

Yukari:
Yes...
Though it has been a long time since I abandoned going by that name
My real name is Ushiromiya Ange...
Why are we behaving so distant?
Arent we...
We both grew up, didn't we
Tôya-sensei
Onii-chan
Your real name is
Ushiromiya Battler...
-san, right?

Tôya:
...that is correct.

Yukari:
.........
-------
......ngh
You...
you survived
I am sorry...to behave...so improper...

Tôya:
You don't have to apologize.
You have spend decades all alone, believing in the return of your family...

Yukari:
Thank you...for coming back alive...
Battler...oniichan...

Tôya:
On that day, we fled through the underground tunnels...

Yukari:
Those that connect to Kuwadorian?

Tôya:
I was told that they lead to a hidden mansion on the other side of the island.
But we did not end up at Kuwadorian
but in the direction of a submarine harbour and avoided the explosion...
From there I escaped using a motor boat
But......
while underway...
I assume I must have ended up capsizing...

Yukari:
Assume?

Ikuko:
I apologize.
Tôya has suffered from memory impairment and his recollection of the events before and after falling into the ocean is hazy.

Yukari:
In other words...
For a while he had even forgotten that he is Ushiromiya Battler in the first place...?

Ikuko:
After the event he seems to have drifted ashore somewhere and was then involved in a car accident while drifting around...I picked him up when I found him collapsed on the road.

Tôya:
Had Ikuko-san noticed me just a moment later, I might have never again opened my eyes to this world...

Ikuko:
I still think you doubted me quite a while, if I hadn't been the one who had hit you.

Tôya:
Come on, I apologized for that...

Yukari:
Aah...
This is a summary I can agree with.
My brother suffered memory loss, either when he fell into the ocean, or due to a traffic accident.
As time passed, his memory returned.
And based on his memory, Hachijô Tôya began publishing forgeries under the name of Itôikukurô...
but the why...

Ikuko:
Kotobuki-sensei.
When we meet that time before, I had already long found out about his real name.
That is why I believed I should make the two of you meet face to face.

Yukari:
That's true!
At that time you should have already remembered me as well.
Why didn't you meet with me back then...??
If you knew that I was your little sister...why...

Tôya:
I refused to do so.
I refused
because I did not want to meet you.

Yukari:
Wh...
why?
You should have known that your little sister was living all alone while being crushed by loneliness!
Why then...why?!

Tôya:
I regret doing so now...

Yukari:
Regret?!
Have you even once considered my feelings in this?!
What emotions I had to go through during those many decades...!

Tôya:
I deeply regret doing those horrible things to you...
That is why I kept searching for you ever since...
For your sake and for mine...
We should have met so much earlier...

Yukari:
Then why...

Ikuko:
Kotobuki-sensei.
As I have said before, he suffers from brain impairme...no, from brain damage.
It's the after-effects of the accident.

Yukari:
But his memory came back, didn't it?!

Ikuko:
The memory returned.
But...
the after-effects of the damage did not heal.

Yukari:
?

Tôya:
I possess the memory of Ushiromiya Battler
but...
I have a brain disease
that makes me unable to think of it as my own.

Yukari:
Unable to think...
of it as your own...?

Tôya:
.....yes
My memory of the events before and after my escape from the island are still hazy
but apart from that almost everything has come back to me...
For example the pink hair-accessoires that you treasured so much.
I remember that I got them from the game corner of an amusement park.

Yukari:
Yes.....
I treasure them to this day...

Tôya:
There is more
The fact that you hated seaweed and how troubled your mother was over it.
How you tried to trick her by shoveling it all on my plate...

Yukari:
..........
But if you remember so much, how can you not accept it as your own...

Tôya:
That is the extent of the damage to my brain...
I went to so many hospitals, but there is nothing that could be done...
You will not be able to understand this...
But the feeling of an unknown man's memory one day suddenly flooding your head is incredibly terrifying...
It were harsh and horrifying days...
It was as if my head were to be eroded from the inside by this man I didn't know...
I was afraid that if I were to go to sleep today that I would never awaken again and from the next day onwards, another man would be living his life using my body....
This fear kept tormenting me...
But it was...
all useless...
I am Hachijô Tôya...
No matter how many memories of Ushiromiya Battler's gush forth from my head, they remain a stranger's memories....
I was...
incapable to accept Ushiromiya Battler into myself...

Ikuko:
He is stuck between being himself and being this other self, so one day, like a spastic fit...
............
Luckily he got away with his life, but due to the after-effects he will have to spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair...

Yukari:
.........
That is...
I can't....

Ikuko:
Yet he did put up a fight.
More than having Ushiromiya Battler within himself, he saw it to be his duty to meet with you, the little sister, and fought on in the rift between his two selfs.
That is the very reason why he reacted to the hints towards you changing your name by meeting you here today.

Tôya:
But even then...
to be honest, I did not get a second of sleep last night.
I was so afraid of meeting you...
If maybe by meeting you I'd end up dying...I was so terribly afraid of that...
Yet here I am, talking to you like any person would...
That is why I regret it so...
If I had met with you even sooner...you and...also the Ushiromiya Battler within me...
they might have went withouth suffering on for all these years and months...
That is inexcusable.......
.....ngh

Yukari:
....so alas...Ushiromiya Battler really did "die" on that day...
Was that the reason why Bernkastel kept repeating the Red Truth that my brother had died over and over...

Battler (memory):
That is because I am praying for your happiness together with all of them,
you see.

Ikuko:
At the time when the Rokkenjima mystery was getting popular on the internet
I picked up a single message bottle
and Tôya regained the memory that he had lost.
Going by his testimony, I was convinced that this message was the real deal, sent by the mastermind.

Tohya:
"It wasn't me"
"It wasn't my fault"

Ikuko:
After reading it, Tôya was tormented for a long time, by the feeling of guilt resulting from the memory of his other self.

Tohya:
"Due to the fault of a person named Battler a great many people died"
"If Battler had tried, he might have been able to save them."
"That is me!"
"It's not me!"
"Did I live my carefree life until now, by forgetting such a tragedy?"
"That is not me!"

Ikuko:
For Tôya, Rokkenjima were days like hell that he couldn't rip his mind away from.
So in that case
As an offering to the witch that he said vanished into the sea, and also with the intent to indict the culprit Ushiromiya Eva, I proposed to him to write a forgery together.

Yukari:
Culprit?

Ikuko:
At that time Tohya firmly believed that
going by his own memory, Ushiromiya Eva was the culprit of a mass murder.

Battler (memory):
The only corpse left I have not seen is...

Ikuko:
So at a time when we had released several works, starting with Banquet
Ushiromiya Eva-shi herself came asking for us.

Yukari:
Huh?
Eva-obasan...?!?

Ikuko:
Like you, she as well understood that Itôikukurou is Hachijô Tôya...
but even more clearly, she came to us convinced that the author of those forgeries must have been a survivor of that incident.

Eva:
"So you really did survive, Battler-kun"

Tôya:
........
That was when the three of us shared the truth of that day.
Having Ikuko listen to it as an impartial third party
I learned of the tragedy that happened in the hidden VIP-room on that day, while Battler was not present.
Yes, I was feeling unsure about it from the start.
Going by Battler's memory, she was not the person to murder her son and husband.
Then all doubts melted away.
When I arrived at that point and became the leadin force behind the Rokkenjima mystery, I understood what pain I had inflicted on my little sister...
I became convinced that I had to lay both the Rokkenjima mystery and the truth of that day to rest...

Ikuko:
I took it upon myself to collect the key to Madam Eva's diary.
When a time came when you gained the diary, made your way to Hachijô Tôya, and with real conviction wanted the truth of that day
I would have you decide on your own whether you wanted to know it or not.
The rest is as you know it as well.

Yukari:
Eva-obasan...

Tôya:
Please forgive me...one more thing...
Kotobuki-sensei...
I...
caused horrible pain to you by becoming a forgery author after the incident.
Even though I am your brother, I left my little sister all alone without even meeting her...
Please, somehow...forgive me...

Yukari:
Thanks to Eva-obasan and those two here, I was able to step into my future and Rokkenjima has been put to rest...
but this man kept on and on...tormenting himself until today...
Please raise your head, Tôya-sensei...
You have been tormenting yourself quite a lot...for me it was enough that you came out here to meet me today...
It is alright...because I was not at all alone...
The witch of Rokkenjima was surely also pleased with your forgeries and is at rest now...
Thank you, Oniisan...
Thank you for going thorugh with meeting me today...
It has gotten quite late already...
Thank you for keeping me company so long, after coming so far out here

Tôya:
Not at all...
I am glad that we could meet...Kotobuki-sensei

Yukari:
I am glad...that I could hear some stories of the past
Thank you, Tôya-sensei...
It might be better if we do not meet again...
You have your own life to live, Tôya-sensei...

Tôya:
Well...
Kotobuki-sensei
Can we meet just one more time after this?

Yukari:
Wha...?

Tôya:
I want to see it with my own eyes.
That rumored orphanage that you are sponsoring...

Yukari:
But...
that is...

Tôya:
I know.
That is why I want to go.

Yukari:
I understand.
Well then...
If this day suits you, please...

Tôya:
Kotobuki-sensei
The Fukuin House...is splendid, isn't it?
It's the first time for me to come here, but I know it well.
It is an institution to support children, backed by the Ushiromiya family.
It ran into financial troubles after the incident on Rokkenjima and was closed down, but then you opened it up again.
It is nothing big...but it's for the children in this institution...

Kotobuki:
That is way too...that was not my intent for...

Tôya:
Compared to your effort that you spent by financing this place on your own, this is nothing...
Children are a treasure and the future...so please, make use of it.

Yume:
Yukari-senseiiii

Yukari:
What is it, Yume-chan?

Yume:
Does my mama really not come back to life?
Today is Halloween, so the dead come back to visit us, don't they?
Won't my mama come back to visit me today...?
I wanted to see her so bad...

Yukari:
Yume-chan...
It's sad, but those who died cannot come back.

Yume:
So, mama won't come back?

Yukari:
But, since today is Halloween, the distance between the living and the dead is really small
Go on, close your eyes
Try a little to remember your mother...
And?
How is your mother? What does she say?

Yume:
Hm...
Be good and eat your tomatos...

Yukari:
Right...
What else?

Yume:
She's a little worried
So she will give me a hug...

Yukari:
That's right...
See...now that you feel your mother so close your chest is so warm, right?
Your mother can't come back, but she is always in here.
So it is alright.
And just like you can feel your mother close
she can feel her Yume-chan close as well today.
Laugh a lot today.
Send your beloved mother lots of happy smiles.

Yume:
Okay!!

Tôya:
To bring the life back to a sad child's face
you are the real thing.

Yukari:
Everyone can use magic to create a future and find a fragment of happiness.
This is...a witch school that teaches that kind of magic.

Tôya:
So it is like the dormitory of the witches in "Sakutaro's Great Adventure", right?

Yukari:
You actually read my work? Now this is embarassing...

Tôya:
Your writing skill is unparalled.
I have to bow my head before such a warm and friendly heart...

Amakusa:
Well then Tôya-sensei, here you are.

Tôya:
I see, we are doing Trick or Treat.

Yukari:
Please tell the children of all your wonderful dreams.
They are all so happy to have visitors.

Tôya:
It has been years since I was last around children
What should I talk to them about....

Ikuko:
"Let's choose a publisher that handles manuscripts really well"?

Tôya:
"Pay no attention to reader surveys!"

Yukari:
Tôya-sensei, don't strain yourself...

Tôya:
No...
Kotobuki-sensei...
If "it" really is here
then I want to head straight towards it.
That...is...
Unbelievable...you really did reconstruct the hall of the Ushiromiya mansion in the Fukuin House...

Yukari:
Yes, but since I did it all from my memory, there might be small details that are off...

Tôya:
No...
This really is the hall in the Ushiromiya mansion...

Yukari:
The painter who did the portrait on the order of Ushiromiya Kinzo still had the photograph.
I made him paint it based on that...
Now, everyone
New guests have arrived!

Kinzo (illusion):
You are quite late.

Natsuhi (illusion):
You really took your time.

Jessica (illusion):
Finally you made it here.

Maria (illusion):
Uuuh, slow!

Beato (illusion):
I am getting tired of waiting for you, Battlerrrr!

Battler (illusion):
Hey, me! Why am I sitting in a wheelchair?

Beato (illusion):
I will lend you a hand, so hop and get up!
It took a long time

memories:
You are incompetent
Too bad, but witches...
Who am I...?
Liar...
Goodbye...
Even as a lover...

Battler:
.....
.....yes

Beato:
Listen
We are finally all gathered together here
Tonight the Golden Land shall revive here.
At last you came back...I will never let go again.

Battler:
Yes, neither will I.

We are
together forever

THE END

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

The time has come.
Please, let's all spent a moment of silence before we depart on this final journey together. The last chapter of Umineko Episode 8 is here, and with it we end our journey and arrive at...

As usual thank you a lot for the translation!
I've to admit I'm rather curious to see this chap and how Ange looks.
Does Ikuko looks always the same? And I guess Tohya looks like a young Kinzo, right?

There are not many changes but the ones present are interesting.

Agent:
You are familiar with Hachijô-sensei? Might you even have met at some point?

Yukari:
Yes...
A long time ago...just once...

Flashback:
No way...
Eva-obasan's...
diary?

Agent:
You see, Hachijô Tôya-sensei actually inquired about you.
There is high interest in a private meeting.

This bit for example wasn't in the original VN... as Ange claimed she never met Hachijo Tohya. Even later on it'll be confirmed that instead she actually had met her, even if she had claimed to be Tohya.

Also it implies that Ange decided to go forward into her life after Ikuko cancelled the opening of Eva's diary, while in the VN it wasn't very clear when it had happened.

It's interesting how here the dialogue doesn't even attempt to trick us into thinking Battler escaped with Eva (though I don't know if the visual imply Ange assumed that's what had happened).

I wonder... do they show what caused Tohya to end up on a wheelchair?

It's interesting to see Tohya's inner thoughts. The way he blames Battler... it feels like the way Beatrice blamed him. And in a way it better underlines how Black Battler must have flet like torture to him.

It's sort of interesting how he remembers the witch vanished into the sea but then he can't remember how he fell into the sea. Oh well...

It's also interesting to see the story better underlining what went on, how Tohya moved from believing Eva to be the culprit, how Eva figured out who he was, how the two met... how Ikuko had Ange make her choice, paralleling the choice she made in twilight.

Personally I think Tohya is a coward. He rejects Battler because he blames him for the tragedy but doesn't want to blame himself.
He thinks Eva is the culprit... but does not try to take Ange from her. Tosses himself into the world of forgery authors... and only afterward realizes the pain he was causing to Ange.

His only remeedable action is that ultimately he decided to meet Ange (after she wrote 8 books? Really Tohya... you've already met Eva, it won't kill you to meet Ange) to ask her to forgive him. Kinzo anyone?
Poor Ange had to do the mature person and say 'okay, it's better if we don't meet again as you've your life'

Interesting enough here it's Tohya who ask to visit the Fukuin house, and not Ange who invites him...

Though it's not really clear if the illusion is something Tohya sees or Ange sees. But well, I guess with the visual it'll be clearer.

Still it's interesting to compare Battler from chap 37 with Tohya. In the previous chapter Battler was willing to take upon himself the blame for Sayo deciding to murder everyone. Tohya instead wants to push the blame on Battler.

Battler is willing to take responsibility for his own sin, by offering to bear the cross with Sayo, to live to atone it, to show Sayo the world. Tohya just wants Ange to forgive him, his idea to make up is to show in front of her and say sorry. Oh yes, he tried to silence the internet after he put it into a frenzy, without even psychologically preparing Ange to that mess or explaining her things and while having Ikuko handing her the diary and letting Ange handle it. Geez, in a way Tohya and Ikuko feel very much like Bernkastel.

Battler wanted to face the culprit directly and if that wasn't possible to call the police. Tohya thinks the culprit is Eva but just 'cyberbullies' her with his forgery.

Battler tosses himself in the sea in attempt to save Sayo even if it means to risk his life. Previously he pulled her on his shoulders as they were running away, which probably slowed him down. Tohya is so afraid he'll 'die' he refuses for years to meet Ange.

I'm not exactly sure how to consider Meta Battler. He might very well be an in between Battler and Tohya as he might be the Battler who resides inside Tohya... still Meta Battler came out as a lot more selfless and caring than Tohya (even though he too had his moments).

In this light it's interesting also to compare Clair with Sayo from chap 37.
Sayo took responsibility for her own actions while Clair was still busy blaming Battler and fate.
Sayo confessed everything out honestly while Clair still hid herself behind magic.

Maybe it's just me but I definitely prefers Battler of chap 37 to Tohya and Sayo to Clair.

I'm a bit sad that this means that Battler never truly had a chance to solve Sayo's mistery through Tohya as Tohya was handed the solution. I tend to see MetaBattler as solving Beatrice's mystery as a representation of Tohya recovering more of his memories (after all the whole thing is represented by him remembering his promise to Sayo).

Just wondering... why Ikuko calls Eva 'Ushiromiya Eva-shi' what does -shi means?

Also the meta is a bit of a mess. In chap 36 we just had MetaBattler going back to the golden land but here we've Battler going back to it again... only he doesn't seem to be the same Battler as before... but again, maybe it's just me.

Again, thank you a lot for your translation!

Also, I wonder, do they say if something new about Umineko will be released?

[Ayu-ayu]

Otsukare-sama deshita!

Well, no huge new surprises, but some great clarifications, especially about meeting Eva. I'm going to have to sleep on this some, but overall I think I'm pretty satisfied...

I think another reread of the whole work with the final keys is probably in order to see how the last pieces fit in, particularly in interpreting the reasons behind each forgery and what is being represented in the meta, particularly considering the influx of new info from Eva and Tohya's working out the final bits.

"You are incompetent" sure takes on a much sadder meaning now.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I've to admit I'm rather curious to see this chap and how Ange looks.
Does Ikuko looks always the same? And I guess Tohya looks like a young Kinzo, right?

So, in order to answer these questions, I'll just let pictures speak for themselves.

Spoiler for Yukari:

Ange is clearly older and actually looks a lot like a young Eva did in EP3, just with redder hair. One can assume that at least another 10, if not 20 years older than before.

Spoiler for Tohya:

Tohya looks similar to Kinzo but a lot more haggard and weak. While Kinzo was this imposing man, Tohya is clearly worn out by the events in his life and...well, he spent 2 or 3 decades of it in a wheelchair.
Ikuko looks almost completely the same, but I kind of accept the handwave she gives it herself, "Witches do not age!" Did she really not age at all and is an actual witch in the human world, or did she just have a youthful complexion from the start and is joking around at this point? I don't really mind either way, since, compared to the literal deus ex machina magic at the end of Higurashi, Featherine is actually fairly limited as a human and doesn't display any actual magical powers.

Also it implies that Ange decided to go forward into her life after Ikuko cancelled the opening of Eva's diary, while in the VN it wasn't very clear when it had happened.

Though I do wonder if that means that, if the meeting between Ange and Hachijô Ikuko actually happened, did she go there before she went up the roof to kill herself. Well, considering she had to get the key from Ikuko, that must have been the case.

I wonder... do they show what caused Tohya to end up on a wheelchair?

No, it doesn't really specify, but the way it is phrased it must have been some form of stroke. Considering he already had brain damage, probably a result of that. Kind of horrible to imagine that it caused him so much stress that he ended up in a wheelchair, considering what a great guy Battler apparently was.

It's interesting to see Tohya's inner thoughts. The way he blames Battler... it feels like the way Beatrice blamed him.

Yes, it really makes the scenes in EP2-4 quite a lot clearer and shows why this pains him so much.

Personally I think Tohya is a coward. He rejects Battler because he blames him for the tragedy but doesn't want to blame himself.

His only remeedable action is that ultimately he decided to meet Ange (after she wrote 8 books?

Well, to his defense. While he was aware that he once was the "body of Battler", he simply isn't able to take on this personality. It's a weird situation, but there actually seem to be disassociative identity disorders similar to this. He doesn't only reject him because he blames him for the tragedy, he actually doesn't want to be responsible and is desperately searching for an answer himself.
And concerning Ange, she really only got popular one year prior to these events and was otherwise probably floating around somewhere in the kid's fantasy section.

I also think his actions were kind of cowardly, but I kind of like it that this sort of role reversal between him and Ange happens in the end.

Though it's not really clear if the illusion is something Tohya sees or Ange sees. But well, I guess with the visual it'll be clearer.

It is implied that they are both seeing them. Be it out of shared perception of reality or the meta-beings really being around them, I think that's suppossed to be left up to us to decide.

I'm not exactly sure how to consider Meta Battler. He might very well be an in between Battler and Tohya as he might be the Battler who resides inside Tohya...

Spoiler for GL:

The manga shows that Ange and Battler are already in the Golden Land, even while Yukari and Tohya are still alive. So the Battler that went with Sayotrice when she jumped into the ocean was already in the Golden Land and made it through all those trials, yet there is also the Battler in Tohya who suffered until now and is then finally released to become one with the Battler who is already there.

Spoiler for GL2:

And before anyone asks: Yes, Tohya is still alive after this and apparently freed of his anxiety.

I'm a bit sad that this means that Battler never truly had a chance to solve Sayo's mistery through Tohya as Tohya was handed the solution.

He was handed the solution to Sayo's mystery, but he wasn't handed the solution to the actual events, so in a way he still had things to figure out. I think the events of the meta are more Tohya's path towards remembering who he was, his role in the events and what to make of it, in the direct aftermath of him getting his memory back and the stories are him working through what he remembered and forming it into "offerings to the witch".

Just wondering... why Ikuko calls Eva 'Ushiromiya Eva-shi' what does -shi means?

I actually left it out the second time she uses it...
This is where using Japanese suffixes in scanlations really reaches its limits (and why I normally try avoiding them all the time). -shi (氏) is the 3rd person singular form of -san (さん), it's rarely used by young adults and shows a certain respect for the person you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Otsukare-sama deshita!

お疲れ様でした

"You are incompetent" sure takes on a much sadder meaning now.

I actually teared up a little when there were the several flashback panels on the last few pages and I started remembering how it all started to us as well. The amount of self-guilting and hatred that lies behind the Beato that Tohya saw is amazing and kind of sad, also when we consider how she was "pushed" into the role as revealed in EP3...

Btw. thinking about it now, it actually makes sense why Ryukishi first wanted to introduce Virgilius as an Erika-type character in EP3. Retrospectively it would have made the author-change a lot clearer.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

So, in order to answer these questions, I'll just let pictures speak for themselves.

Spoiler for Yukari:

Ange is clearly older and actually looks a lot like a young Eva did in EP3, just with redder hair. One can assume that at least another 10, if not 20 years older than before.

I'll say she looks a lot younger than I expected. If I don't remember wrong the VN says decades have gone so I'll say 20 years are passed therefore Ange is 38... or, at worse, 48. I might even go 48 considering how Tohya, in comparison, looks older.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Spoiler for Tohya:

Tohya looks similar to Kinzo but a lot more haggard and weak. While Kinzo was this imposing man, Tohya is clearly worn out by the events in his life and...well, he spent 2 or 3 decades of it in a wheelchair.
Ikuko looks almost completely the same, but I kind of accept the handwave she gives it herself, "Witches do not age!" Did she really not age at all and is an actual witch in the human world, or did she just have a youthful complexion from the start and is joking around at this point? I don't really mind either way, since, compared to the literal deus ex machina magic at the end of Higurashi, Featherine is actually fairly limited as a human and doesn't display any actual magical powers.

Tohya looks in quite a bad shape. I tried to check how Kinzo looked when he went to retrieve Genji and he definitely seemed better. If I compare him to Battler I definitely feel sorry for him.
LOL, I wouldn't be surprised if Ikuko entrusted herself to 'wizards who would help her look younger'. In short I wouldn't be surprised if she had plastic surgery. After all she has the money and she's not afraid to use it.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Though I do wonder if that means that, if the meeting between Ange and Hachijô Ikuko actually happened, did she go there before she went up the roof to kill herself. Well, considering she had to get the key from Ikuko, that must have been the case.

Well, i haven't seen the scenes but from your translation I'll say it should have happened.

Originally Posted by haguruma

No, it doesn't really specify, but the way it is phrased it must have been some form of stroke. Considering he already had brain damage, probably a result of that. Kind of horrible to imagine that it caused him so much stress that he ended up in a wheelchair, considering what a great guy Battler apparently was.

Yes, it really makes the scenes in EP2-4 quite a lot clearer and shows why this pains him so much.

Oh, I hadn't thought to a stroke. It would make sense though. Though I wonder... did he have it at Ep 4 (when he learnt Asumu wasn't his mother) or during Ep 5 (when he couldn't beat Dlanor and ended up stabbed?).

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, to his defense. While he was aware that he once was the "body of Battler", he simply isn't able to take on this personality. It's a weird situation, but there actually seem to be disassociative identity disorders similar to this. He doesn't only reject him because he blames him for the tragedy, he actually doesn't want to be responsible and is desperately searching for an answer himself.

Yes, but still he should take responsibility for the person that once resided in that body instead of completely rejecting the blame. And this becomes even more evident with Ange. He has no plans to truly take responsibility for leaving her on her own, denying her the truth her brother's body was alive, he just wants to be forgiven.

It's similar to Kinzo who wanted Sayo to forgive him when she didn't even know what he did in the first place and that planned to 'redeem himself' by leaving her his title and fortune (as he was dying) and not to his other children whom he didn't truly love much.

In the manga Tohya is a bit more proactive as he's the one who asks to visit the Fukuin house while in the VN he just wanted to apologize and be done with it and it's Ange who asks him to come visiting the Fukuin house.
Still... I feel he really didn't try that hard to make up with her... though that might be because Tohya, like Ikuko, is a barely developed character.
He exists for two chapters only who barely skim over his life.

Originally Posted by haguruma

And concerning Ange, she really only got popular one year prior to these events and was otherwise probably floating around somewhere in the kid's fantasy section.

I still think he should have searched for his sister a little harder.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I also think his actions were kind of cowardly, but I kind of like it that this sort of role reversal between him and Ange happens in the end.

Well, yes, narratively speaking is interesting as it's interesting to see him opposed to Battler. Though it doesn't help me much to like him.

Originally Posted by haguruma

It is implied that they are both seeing them. Be it out of shared perception of reality or the meta-beings really being around them, I think that's suppossed to be left up to us to decide.

Spoiler for GL:

The manga shows that Ange and Battler are already in the Golden Land, even while Yukari and Tohya are still alive. So the Battler that went with Sayotrice when she jumped into the ocean was already in the Golden Land and made it through all those trials, yet there is also the Battler in Tohya who suffered until now and is then finally released to become one with the Battler who is already there.

Spoiler for GL2:

And before anyone asks: Yes, Tohya is still alive after this and apparently freed of his anxiety.

Oh, now that I see it I get it much better. All the other media seemed to imply that there was only 1 Battler, so I assumed that was the case here as well. Here instead they remarked how Battler got split in two, his soul, who's the one who drowned with Beatrice and then was her opponent in the games, and what remained of him in Tohya.

The scene becomes a lot nicer because it seems to imply Tohya finally 'made peace' with Battler's soul and could let him go.

Originally Posted by haguruma

He was handed the solution to Sayo's mystery, but he wasn't handed the solution to the actual events, so in a way he still had things to figure out. I think the events of the meta are more Tohya's path towards remembering who he was, his role in the events and what to make of it, in the direct aftermath of him getting his memory back and the stories are him working through what he remembered and forming it into "offerings to the witch".

Yes, now that I understand better the ending it would make sense. Just wondering... how the two Battler are handled in the end? Do they fuse into one?

Originally Posted by haguruma

I actually left it out the second time she uses it...
This is where using Japanese suffixes in scanlations really reaches its limits (and why I normally try avoiding them all the time). -shi (氏) is the 3rd person singular form of -san (さん), it's rarely used by young adults and shows a certain respect for the person you are talking about.

Oh, okay, I've never heard it, only '-san'.
I don't think there's a safe way to handle suffixes. Often they give certain implications that not always it's possible to translate litterally... but at the same time leaving them still requires for the reader to know them.

Battler refers to Kinzo as Jiisama, which is slightly more familiar than the Ojiisama his cousins use... but is definitely more respectful than Ojiichan that Kinzo uses to refer to himself in Ep 8 when talking with Ange and Maria. And thanks good the other variations (ojiisan, jiisan, jiichan) aren't used but still we've three ways to just say grandad. In English I guess one might use grandfather, grandad and grandpa, but in Italian you've not so many variations so the nuance between the three would be impossible to catch.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I actually teared up a little when there were the several flashback panels on the last few pages and I started remembering how it all started to us as well. The amount of self-guilting and hatred that lies behind the Beato that Tohya saw is amazing and kind of sad, also when we consider how she was "pushed" into the role as revealed in EP3...

Btw. thinking about it now, it actually makes sense why Ryukishi first wanted to introduce Virgilius as an Erika-type character in EP3. Retrospectively it would have made the author-change a lot clearer.

So as to better underline the self hate Tohya had for himself? It might make sense. In a way Erika just feels a bit outplaced as her motivation for hating herself doesn't fit Tohya and at best I might wonder if it fits Ikuko.

So ultimately it feels like as if in Prime she's just a random person who got caught up in Tohya and Ikuko's tales, instead than someone truly connected to them.

Of course Erika might actually reflect Ikuko a bit. After all Erika has ties to Bern who's Ikuko's cat. So maybe Ikuko was dumped by a man like that when younger and that's why she was still single.

LOL, it might even reflect Ikuko's fear toward Tohya's tie with Beatrice as Erika wanted very much to replace Beatrice... Oh well, I guess it's fun to speculate but we'll never know... *sigh*
I really wish Umineko got more sidestories...

Ah haguruma... any chance you'll show us bits of Ep 37 also? The waiting is killing me! I might become the next mysterious closed room murder case!

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I might even go 48 considering how Tohya, in comparison, looks older.

I'd also rather go with the 30 year gap than the 20 year gap, but on the other hand, Battler could also just look really horrible for a 50 year old. I know from experience how especially sickness can make a person age within even just weeks, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine that Tohya just looked horrible.

If I compare him to Battler I definitely feel sorry for him.

Well, he suffers from PTSD, brain damage from drowning, after-effects of a car accident, a stroke, and the many medical exams and the stress from his sickness must have also worn him out.
When Kinzo went to retrieve Genji, he was likely in his prime, considering that he had both money and the love of his life in his hand.

LOL, I wouldn't be surprised if Ikuko entrusted herself to 'wizards who would help her look younger'. In short I wouldn't be surprised if she had plastic surgery. After all she has the money and she's not afraid to use it.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. I kind of like it that they kept this line ambiguous enough so that the magic doesn't completely fly out of the window, but on the other hand it also allows us to see Ikuko as just a human.

Oh, I hadn't thought to a stroke. It would make sense though. Though I wonder... did he have it at Ep 4 (when he learnt Asumu wasn't his mother) or during Ep 5 (when he couldn't beat Dlanor and ended up stabbed?).

The way the scene is played, this was the scene right when he was confronted with CotGW and collapses at the end of the interlude chapter. So if we were to connect Tohya and the meta-events, then I'd say the meta-story started with Tohya's stroke. But it's left for interpretation, so it could also be that it happened during the writing process.

Btw. can I throw in that I find the choice of fashion for Tohya, with the black suit and white hair, even more striking when looking at it now. The way he is kind of the mirror opposite to Battler, or at least constructs himself as such in all his self-pity. In a way, he isn't that much different from Sayo either, in the way that he prefers to play out scenarios in his head than actually challenging them in real life.

Still... I feel he really didn't try that hard to make up with her... though that might be because Tohya, like Ikuko, is a barely developed character.
He exists for two chapters only who barely skim over his life.

Well, going by the idea that meta-Battler also reflects Tohya in a way, I think we know him better than we might like to admit, since we excused many of his actions due to him being "trapped in a magical meta-realm".
Meta-Battler's relationship to meta-Ange always struck me as a little distant. Like AAnge cared a lot more for Battler's return than Battler actually tried coming back to her. He was always concerned with, not letting her fall victim to the witch, but never really concerned himself with "coming back to her".

Seeing it like that, even Battler's reaction on October 6th is, while romantic, horribly impulsive. He doesn't even consider that he is the only alive direct relative that could come back to Ange. If I were to be mean, I'd say he loved her as a big brother loves his little sister, but nothing more.

Well, yes, narratively speaking is interesting as it's interesting to see him opposed to Battler. Though it doesn't help me much to like him.

I don't think we are supposed to like him, I think it is supposed to be sad and kind of disheartening to see that the man behind those stories, the fabled survivor is a broken man and, if you strip all the fantasy away, there is nothing much good to see.
Like Ange said though, at least he wasn't alone.

Yes, now that I understand better the ending it would make sense. Just wondering... how the two Battler are handled in the end? Do they fuse into one?

Spoiler for Tohya's Battler Meta Battler:

Tohya's Battler vanishes as he is absorbed into Meta-Battler. Now it depends on whether one thinks the Golden Land is real or not. I for myself believe in the Golden Land I will readily sign the contract

In English I guess one might use grandfather, grandad and grandpa, but in Italian you've not so many variations so the nuance between the three would be impossible to catch.

Yeah, it changes from language to language. At least Germanic languages have enough inflections and diminutive affixes that these Japanese phrases can at least be kind of worked around. But yes, Italian works a lot more with adjectives than with affixes. The only thing that would come to my mind in Italian would be nonno and nonnino...though my image of nonnino doesn't really fit Kinzo at all
Oh damn, that reminds me how rusty my Italian is...

So as to better underline the self hate Tohya had for himself? It might make sense. In a way Erika just feels a bit outplaced as her motivation for hating herself doesn't fit Tohya and at best I might wonder if it fits Ikuko.

Well, I'd say she also stands for the horrible consequences that Tohya himself and Ikuko invited in by creating the forgeries. They surely gave people like Will a chance, who actually tried to challenge the whole of Beatrices riddle, but also those who just wanted to amuse themselves with this tragedy.

Concerning chapter 37. Is there anything specific anybody would like to see and cannot wait for?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I'd also rather go with the 30 year gap than the 20 year gap, but on the other hand, Battler could also just look really horrible for a 50 year old. I know from experience how especially sickness can make a person age within even just weeks, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine that Tohya just looked horrible.

Yes, I've considered it. A stroke can have pretty devasting effects on the way you look and it won't help it isn't the only thing he had.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, he suffers from PTSD, brain damage from drowning, after-effects of a car accident, a stroke, and the many medical exams and the stress from his sickness must have also worn him out.
When Kinzo went to retrieve Genji, he was likely in his prime, considering that he had both money and the love of his life in his hand.

I'm not so sure about Kinzo being that young. Kinzo became the head in 1924 and in the pictures he looked around Battler's age (likely older but let's assume he's around that age). He went to retrieve Genji after the war, likely during the civil war or just after it so in between 1945 and 1949 or afterward. Considering Kinzo looks considerably older compared to how he looked when he met Beatrice (1944) I'm more prone to think Kinzo saved Genji around the end of the civil war (this if his look can be trusted).
So Kinzo is around 40 or more when he retrieved Genji. It's unsure if Beatrice is already dead or not as Beatrice died around that time and I can't remember if Genji ever met the first Beatrice or not (Beatrice though died before 1952, the year in which the mansion on Rokkenjima started being built).

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. I kind of like it that they kept this line ambiguous enough so that the magic doesn't completely fly out of the window, but on the other hand it also allows us to see Ikuko as just a human.

Same here.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The way the scene is played, this was the scene right when he was confronted with CotGW and collapses at the end of the interlude chapter. So if we were to connect Tohya and the meta-events, then I'd say the meta-story started with Tohya's stroke. But it's left for interpretation, so it could also be that it happened during the writing process.

Honestly if the stroke happened so early on it would make sense for him to be so scared of remembering. That moment was really pretty traumatic for him. Not only he started having serious flashes of memories he couldn't recognize as his own but afterward he suffered a stroke. It ties much better with the idea that remembering might kill him, that him having the stroke much later.

Before that scene even if Tohya had started to think less and less to his past due to his headaches he wasn't so against his past, in a way curious about it and reluctant to get rid of his past self sleeping inside him.

But well, something traumatic as a stroke just when he remembered his name and the people from his past clearly enough to see their faces would be scary enough to make one wish he'll never remember things again.

Though in the VN the test seems to imply it happened much later, when he had already remembered he was Battler but couldn't accept it. But well, the manga is changing things so it's possible they changed this as well.

Just wondering... is Battler already on a wheelchair when he meets Eva? And how old Eva looks?

Originally Posted by haguruma

Btw. can I throw in that I find the choice of fashion for Tohya, with the black suit and white hair, even more striking when looking at it now. The way he is kind of the mirror opposite to Battler, or at least constructs himself as such in all his self-pity. In a way, he isn't that much different from Sayo either, in the way that he prefers to play out scenarios in his head than actually challenging them in real life.

It's rather ironic in a way, isn't it? Both crippled and both too afraid to act. They both end up being trapped by their passivity, even if ultimately in the end Tohya managed to meet Ange and go on living while Sayo couldn't.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, going by the idea that meta-Battler also reflects Tohya in a way, I think we know him better than we might like to admit, since we excused many of his actions due to him being "trapped in a magical meta-realm".
Meta-Battler's relationship to meta-Ange always struck me as a little distant. Like Ange cared a lot more for Battler's return than Battler actually tried coming back to her. He was always concerned with, not letting her fall victim to the witch, but never really concerned himself with "coming back to her".

Seeing it like that, even Battler's reaction on October 6th is, while romantic, horribly impulsive. He doesn't even consider that he is the only alive direct relative that could come back to Ange. If I were to be mean, I'd say he loved her as a big brother loves his little sister, but nothing more.

I've always thought that even though Battler wanted to be a good brother to Ange and cared for her, from his side his bond wasn't as strong as it would have been had they been raised together.
He started meeting Ange when she was 3 if I'm not wrong, and back then and for a long time he never planned going back to the family. While Ange is raised into the idea he was his brother, away from home due to 'circumstances', even though Battler has no ill wills toward her and tries to do his best, he perceives himself as belonging to another family.
When talking about her 5th birthday Ange even said Battler didn't come to all her birthdays and she was unsure if he would have come. As she can't remember her birthdays prior to when she was 3 I'll say it's possible Battler skipped her 3rd and 4th birthday.
In a way I think that, emotionally speaking, Battler had more ties with Sayo, whom during his childhood he rarely saw and that didn't meet for 6 years but with whom in his childhood had a close bonding relation, the two of them feeling in tune with each other and close in age that with a very young child whom also he didn't see that often during those 6 years (even if things were likely improving a lot as he moved back into the Ushiromiya family... even though he still moved in between Rudolf's house and his grandparents house).

Also I don't think he really though to never see her again during the 6th. He likely planned to go to the police and return back home once he'll react Niijima. It might be he didn't plan to raise Ange though, but to leave her in the care of her mathernal grandparents. After all he has been raised by his maternal grandparents and he's way too young to raise a child of 6.

Ange is very emotionally dependant on Battler and her idealized idea her brother would make everything better, she is even just happy when she discovers they share the same mother without really pondering much on how for Battler this isn't a good thing. Ultimately though teenager Ange isn't really being loving. She wants Battler back because she's being needy. She needs him because she's lonely and can't get along with Eva, not because it would be better for him being back (adult Ange instead is capable of being happy because at least her brother wasn't alone and take charge into comforting him).

The problem I've with Battler/Tohya post the 6th is that not only he pretends to be dead, thus causing pain to Ange, but when it becomes well known that Eva and Ange don't get along he still does nothing. But well, as I said before, if it was due to him having had a stroke when he remembered he was Battler I can understand his fear of getting close to Ange.

Out of curiousity, when he meets Eva is he already on a weelchair?

Originally Posted by haguruma

I don't think we are supposed to like him, I think it is supposed to be sad and kind of disheartening to see that the man behind those stories, the fabled survivor is a broken man and, if you strip all the fantasy away, there is nothing much good to see.
Like Ange said though, at least he wasn't alone.

In a way this is a really sad through. Expecially if one consider all that remains of Battler, whom we all have come to love, is this broken and empty shell who's having problems acknowledging he's Battler.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Spoiler for Tohya's Battler Meta Battler:

Tohya's Battler vanishes as he is absorbed into Meta-Battler. Now it depends on whether one thinks the Golden Land is real or not. I for myself believe in the Golden Land I will readily sign the contract

Well, I've to say that with the visual it becomes much better and makes much more sense. To me it implies that Tohya finally came to terms with his past identity but that was also able to let it go. Battler isn't anymore trapped inside him, nor he's afraid of being 'murdered' by Battler. He was Battler. Now he's Hachijo Tohya. What remained of Battler in him is finally at peace and he's at peace as well.

And it's very nice to see Ange also involved in that moment, in seeing what remains of her brother returning home.
In a way it's an interesting parallel with how in the Golden Land Battler sent her toward her future (the two Ange seem to mirror the two Eva).

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yeah, it changes from language to language. At least Germanic languages have enough inflections and diminutive affixes that these Japanese phrases can at least be kind of worked around. But yes, Italian works a lot more with adjectives than with affixes. The only thing that would come to my mind in Italian would be nonno and nonnino...though my image of nonnino doesn't really fit Kinzo at all
Oh damn, that reminds me how rusty my Italian is...

WOW, I've no idea you knew Italian! Well, when Kinzo refers himself as Jiichan it might work translate it with 'nonnino' even if it'll still feel a bit odd.
(nonnino is something used only by small children or when someone is trying to smooth over a grandparent in hope of getting a present or something like that... sort of like a term of endearment)

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, I'd say she also stands for the horrible consequences that Tohya himself and Ikuko invited in by creating the forgeries. They surely gave people like Will a chance, who actually tried to challenge the whole of Beatrices riddle, but also those who just wanted to amuse themselves with this tragedy.

Yes, in a way it can fit Erika... even though Erika is, in her own way a victim (she too died and she too is toyed over in the forgeries) while Will is more like an uninvolved reader. Erika in a way seems more an opposite for Ange and in fact she fits very well Ange's story. Maybe she represents Tohya's fear if he were to meet Ange she would be like Erika? Someone who doesn't respect the tragedy, who wants to keep him for herself regardless of his own wills, someone angry who's just searching for a culprit?
It might fit as in Ep 4 meta Ange which mirrored the Ange that wanted to help him and that he subconsciously acknowledged as his younger sister (he recognized her almost immediately but she denies it and he went with her words) 'died'.
Erika claims to be the new person called to support him and in colours and hairstyle she's the opposite of Ange and might reflect Tohya's fear Ange isn't anymore the one he remembers.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Concerning chapter 37. Is there anything specific anybody would like to see and cannot wait for?

LOL, way too many things but mostly:
- how badly Sayo's shoulder was hurt (was she bleending? there was a bruise?)
- Sayo finding Battler in the golden room and dragging him away (it's sort of weird to picture an injuried Sayo drags away a big boy like Battler)
- One of the Battler/Sayo scenes like Battler recognizing Sayo or her asking him not to go back and leave her alone or him telling her she hadn't sinned and then handing her the candy, or Sayo pretending to be Beatrice to cheer him up... (I'll let up to your judgement to chose which is the best scene among them)
- Definitely Sayo telling Battler she wants to save him and him taking her on his shoulders and running
- the boat scene! the boat scene! the boat scene!
- I'm not really sure how it's played out so if it's not interesting is fine to skip but I'm curious about Sayo sinking and Battler trying to save her. Did he manage to grasp her hand as the VN said or did he never reach her?
- Sayo and Battler sinking together (I definitely have to check if it's better or not that the PS3 version)
- I'm a bit curious about the scene in the parlour, with Battler nor remembering while Beatrice remember but if it's nothing special you can comfortably ignore this.

Of course I'm not asking you to take pictures of all this.
Feel free to choose what to you seem the best scenes. While reading Ep 8 I've discovered some scenes that seemed great in the script were nothing special visually, while scene that in the script seemed nothing special were exceptionally moving visually so my curiousity might be completely misplaced.

[Ayu-ayu]

After rereading the Tea Party in Episode 6's manga, I got chills realizing what Ikuko really meant when talking to Ange at that time. A lot of allusions to what was revealed most recently.

Yet I also still can't quite shake that feeling in the end her story about who she is and why she is with Tohya seems a bit fishy.

[Mali]

Ikuko is the Cher of the Umineko world.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

After rereading the Tea Party in Episode 6's manga, I got chills realizing what Ikuko really meant when talking to Ange at that time. A lot of allusions to what was revealed most recently.

Well, yes, it definitely makes things interesting as now we know that Ikuko and Ange actually met. There's to wonder if Ikuko let her read Dawn and then she sent to her Twilight, the tale that should satisfy Ange alongside with the pen, as a reminder she had encouraged her to write her own tale in their previous meeting.

Another thing I wonder about is if all this that we read in the manga was actually planned while writing the story and just not included or Ryukishi only had vagues idea about it and then outlined it while writing the manga.

Some stuffs for example were clearly changed for the manga, like Tohya being the one who wanted to visit the Fukuin house (in the VN it's Ange who asks him to come) so even if the manga is Ryukishi's official answer I wonder if it's an answer that got changed, or at least better outlined, along the way.

After all, as long as the solution was left vague, everything goes and it's difficult to find contraddictions, but once it's written down one has to be more cafefull.

I'm still sort of confuse about Lion for example. Now that it's sure that Sayo died, which importance it has to save the possibility that, if Natsuhi had accepted her, she could have been happy when she's dead?

Ange can learn by her relatives' mistakes and find relief in the fact that if they hadn't done them things could be better but Sayo... well, she's dead.
Bernkastel's bullying of Lion can't reach her anymore, nor can reach her anymore the hope that Lion represent.
There's nothing Sayo can learn from Lion by now.
Unless... well, Lion too exists for Ange, so that Ange can learn from him too... even if to be honest Lion's and Ange's interaction is minimal.

Maybe he's meant to exist for Beatrice's soul to find some relief? After all Beatrice was happy to meet him... Oh well, we'll never know... and we won't quite know how Battler in Ep 6 meant to bring Beato out of the catbox when he supposedly found out he too couldn't leave the catbox in Ep 5. Unless they're talking of the golden land?
Oh well.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Yet I also still can't quite shake that feeling in the end her story about who she is and why she is with Tohya seems a bit fishy.

Well, I'll admit it's interesting it seems that it's Featherine the one who's writing Ange's happy ending but I guess this isn't meant to invalidate it as Featherine says she's only recording it, writing it as it passes, not making it up.

After all Featherine is more like Tohya hiding behind Ikuko than just Ikuko.

As for Ikuko...
Honestly I'm not fond of Ikuko as a character.
She's just too few developed so that her philantrophy in taking care of Battler/Tohya feels way too weird. She's also too convenient (overly rich, living secluded, mystery lover, good at writing, passing there at the right time to find Battler, even finding Confession of all the bottles) and it sort of sadden me how she more or less gets all Sayo wanted.

Maybe she too exists as an example, as to tell us that if Sayo had grabbed part of the gold, moved to live in a secluded house and invited Battler there she could have had Ikuko's life but Ikuko apparently (actually we don't know enough about her to tell) doesn't come with the same set of Sayo's problems so the comparison seems unfair to me.

Really, Ikuko is among the things I'm sad Umineko didn't develop.
What follows are how Battler spent those six years as all we get is that he was busy and vague references to how he actually wasn't as happy as his letters seemed to imply during them and what caused Asumu's sudden death. I'll assume Battler's grandparents passed away due to old age even if actually it's never said anywhere. And yes, I'd like to know more about Kinzo's wife (the manga refused to show her face and we weren't even given her name!), how the matter about Sayo's letter went and what went through Kyrie during those fateful days.

Actually in chap 37 she and Rudolf seem to care less about Battler than Rudolf does in Ep 7 Teaparty.

Oh Haguruma who's saying 'What about Battler?' and 'If Battler doesn't go along with it' in this bit?

Voices:
Every kind of pretend get-along has vanished from this island
Time to have some fun
What about Battler?
Is he gonna touch the billion?
Only if he wants to die.
I am soft regarding my own children
But going so far as being nice to Asumu's child...that's asking too much

Voices:
If Battler doesn't go along with it
I'm sorry, but that's it then

It should be possible to know as if it's Kyrie speaking she usually calls him 'Battler-kun'

If it's Rudolf that's asking 'What about Battler? Is he gonna touch the billion?' then at least he shows a little concern.

I've tryined comparing it with the script for Ep 7 but in it even if we've a scene with Rudolf asking 'What about Battler?' they don't talk about him touching the billion so I'm not sure.

LOL I wonder if they changed it in Ep 7. In the Vn it was this:

Rudolf: "Guess so. ......What about Battler?"
Kyrie: "He's your son. Not mine."
Rudolf: "Don't say that. Look how attached he is to you. He really respects you."
Kyrie "Then think of a clever way to trick him. I'll worry about Ange. You worry about Battler-kun. Fair enough?"
Rudolf: "Nn, ......sure."
Kyrie: "I'm kind to my own children, ......but it's a real pain to be nice to Asumu-san's kid. You understand, I hope?"
Rudolf: "............"`
Kyrie: "Get yourself ready. Now that we've come this far, ......we can only go for the billion yen or die trying. If you can't convince Battler-kun, I'm sorry, but I won't be taking any chances."
Rudolf: "......No need to threaten me. I'll take care of it. I'll find a good story to tell him."
Kyrie: "Make sure you do a good job of it. ......If Ange hears that Battler-kun has died in an accident, I'm sure she'll be very sad."

[LightBladeNova]

New here, hello everyone though I've pretty much joined at the end of the Tea Party lol, so my presence probably won't mean much.

I honestly just learned a few hours ago that the manga version of Umineko gives more explicit answers than the visual novel does, so I'd just like to clarify/confirm some things:

1.) Based on the Book of the Single Truth (or at least, Eva's POV of the events), Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits of Rokkenjima Prime, and the whole incident resembles or is similar to the Episode 7 Tea Party (though, the wikia page seems to say that the entire EP7 Tea Party scenario is true, even the events that Eva did not witness herself? http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Rokkenjima_Massacre). So I'm not sure.

2.) Yasu was originally going to carry out the massacre on Rokkenjima Prime, but the family solved the epitaph beforehand, so she didn't end up doing it and instead the plan got hijacked by Rudolf/Kyrie? Still though, if Yasu had really intended to commit the crime, then I find it difficult to sympathize with her because the whole thing is just too insane, even given her tragic backstory (I hope that doesn't make me heartless...). The other perspective is that Yasu never intended to actually go through with it (she merely entertained the thought and made a sort of prank about it...?), or she planned on it but then changed her mind somewhere along the way? This would make me sympathize with her a lot more, but in the end, I don't fully know what her truth is.

3.) In Episode 7, Will actually shows his concrete reasoning and thought process regarding the mysteries (particularly the howdunnit) of Episodes 1-4, and delivers a requiem for Shkanontrice. So, all the information in this link (http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Willard's_Truths) is 100% true for Episodes 1-4?

Please clarify for me, thanks.

[MCAL]

http://mangagamer.org/announcements/

Umineko has been licensed by MangaGamer.

Are working with Witch Hunt. New sprites of course.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LightBladeNova

New here, hello everyone though I've pretty much joined at the end of the Tea Party lol, so my presence probably won't mean much.

I honestly just learned a few hours ago that the manga version of Umineko gives more explicit answers than the visual novel does, so I'd just like to clarify/confirm some things:

1.) Based on the Book of the Single Truth (or at least, Eva's POV of the events), Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits of Rokkenjima Prime, and the whole incident resembles or is similar to the Episode 7 Tea Party (though, the wikia page seems to say that the entire EP7 Tea Party scenario is true, even the events that Eva did not witness herself? http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Rokkenjima_Massacre). So I'm not sure.

The manga confirmed that Ep 7 Tea Party is basically what happened, part through the book of the single truth, part through other sources.

Originally Posted by LightBladeNova

2.) Yasu was originally going to carry out the massacre on Rokkenjima Prime, but the family solved the epitaph beforehand, so she didn't end up doing it and instead the plan got hijacked by Rudolf/Kyrie? Still though, if Yasu had really intended to commit the crime, then I find it difficult to sympathize with her because the whole thing is just too insane, even given her tragic backstory (I hope that doesn't make me heartless...). The other perspective is that Yasu never intended to actually go through with it (she merely entertained the thought and made a sort of prank about it...?), or she planned on it but then changed her mind somewhere along the way? This would make me sympathize with her a lot more, but in the end, I don't fully know what her truth is.

Yasu intended carrying on the massacre or at least that was her intention even though the manga shows she actually had doubts about it. When the family solved the epitaph she gave up on it.
As Ep 7 Teaparty shows the adults argued among them, Eva ended up killing Natsuhi, Hideyoshi ended up killing Krauss and Kyrie killed the rest and with Rudolf started the family massacre.
Although they shoot to Yasu as well she survived but fainted. When she woke up she tried to warn everyone else so as to save them but managed to find only Battler still alive. She lead him to safety till a boat. Battler wanted her to leave with him but she was so scared of his rejection if he were to find out the truth about her she drowned herself.

Originally Posted by LightBladeNova

3.) In Episode 7, Will actually shows his concrete reasoning and thought process regarding the mysteries (particularly the howdunnit) of Episodes 1-4, and delivers a requiem for Shkanontrice. So, all the information in this link (http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Willard's_Truths) is 100% true for Episodes 1-4?

Please clarify for me, thanks.

More or less. There are some mistakes which make me think who wrote them didn't saw the manga, ffor example the bonus for Ep 1 is wrong, the one Will thought might have wanted to check inside the shed is George not Battler or in Ep 3 Eva only pushed Rosa and this caused her to fall over the metal thorn, she didn't stick her on it and it's never said she was with Hideyoshi when Kyrie and Rudolf were shoot just that the two of them were bribed.
In Ep 4 she didn't force Kyrie to call Battler. Everyone was her accomplice in what they believed was a prank.

But yes, basically most of it is true.

Anyway if you truly want to understand everything I recommend reading Ep 8 manga version as the changes in it were quite a bit, all relevant and explained a lot, included Sayo's backstory and point of view.

[Mr. Dent]

Not really the best place to post this news, but this is the most popular topic:
Umineko has been licensed by MangaGamer, and will be released through Steam with updated graphics alongside Umineko.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Not really the best place to post this news, but this is the most popular topic:
Umineko has been licensed by MangaGamer, and will be released through Steam with updated graphics alongside Umineko.

As I know next to nothing about MangaGamer I've to ask: Does this mean they'll release the VN, the playstation version or Umineko Ougon?

[Levani]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

As I know next to nothing about MangaGamer I've to ask: Does this mean they'll release the VN, the playstation version or Umineko Ougon?

PC Umineko with new sprites that are not the PS3 ones.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Levani

PC Umineko with new sprites that are not the PS3 ones.

Actually, it appears they'll be using the Pachislot sprites. I don't mind, I like them.

Edit: They said "new sprite art," so maybe they're just placeholders, or maybe they're commissioning more sprites in this style? Hmmm.

[Mali]

I wonder if they make some modification (like Linux compatibility that Higurashi didn't had)??
It may be worth to buy a official localized release of the VN.