(L) Bamboo Blade

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Skane

Good grief, it has nothing to do with gender discrimination. Tamaki was at an disadvantage because of her size compared to Kojirou's senpai. She was the David versus his Goliath, and what might normally pass as a decisive strike against smaller opponents, may seem like a mellow twap on bigger ones.

The whole point of Kojirou disallowing it is because it was not forceful enough. It has nothing to do with gender discrimination. Please get this point at least.

Cheers.

Sigh please read earlier posts before just going on about one part of it. If you watch the episode you will see right after she one handed strikes a series of events.

Let me highlight it all again but with a picture to back up my point

First have a look at this picture note how the sword is bent from the force, never held one before but I'm sure it isn't that easy to bend with a one handed strike.



Yuji scores the hit and Kojirou disallows it. Note the look on her opponents face, he wasn't thinking that oh that was a shallow hit. If was the look of WTF a little girl is beating me.

Next comes the commentary where she goes about a girl using a one-handed hit and that it would be too weak and girls never really use it.

Next we have Tama disagreeing with the ruling <- Tama the person is displayed as a genius at Kendo...

Then we have Tama doing the hideous crime of using the same move twice to prove a point.

IMHO she had to over emphasis her kiai and the move for it to be scored.



Then notice the sensei's pause before scoring it, to me that seemed like he was breaking from the norm.

Now earlier the commentary didn't say people don't use it because it is too weak, but girls don't use it.

All this adds up in my mind is that the norm is for a girl not to use it because it is counted as too weak. Now in competition sports people don't use things if it counts against them, hence me believing that a one handed strike by a girl would have a ruling against it. Now if that is the case then a fight between a man and a woman could only be counted as discriminatory if this attitude is taken by the judge into it.

Of course if both men and women suffer from the same penalty of using a one handed strike then fair enough.

[Deathkillz]

Wow this is getting pretty heated up

imo it has nothing to do with gender really as to whether or not the first strike was considered shallow. while the move was a hit i think in terms of kendo it isnt very proper seen as you should be keeping both hands on the shinai to make a firm connect hit. imo he probably saw it as "cheating" a bit even though it may not say in the rules that you can only use one arm to strike the opponent with (maybe generally kendo users only use both arms for strength and stability).
if you look at the first it, it seemed more like a fluke compared to the second one. the reason why i think they allowed the second hit to count is because tamaki showed some real skill in dodging the initial attack by her opponent.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Wow this is getting pretty heated up

imo it has nothing to do with gender really as to whether or not the first strike was considered shallow. while the move was a hit i think in terms of kendo it isnt very proper seen as you should be keeping both hands on the shinai to make a firm connect hit. imo he probably saw it as "cheating" a bit even though it may not say in the rules that you can only use one arm to strike the opponent with (maybe generally kendo users only use both arms for strength and stability).
if you look at the first it, it seemed more like a fluke compared to the second one. the reason why i think they allowed the second hit to count is because tamaki showed some real skill in dodging the initial attack by her opponent.

My POV is heavily based on the commentary by Saya, if it wasn't for that then I would have assumed most of the other reasons people have come up with.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

My POV is heavily based on the commentary by Saya, if it wasn't for that then I would have assumed most of the other reasons people have come up with.

Was that based on the subs from AEN ? If so I'm not sure how much I would trust what they're saying. They seem acceptable enough to get the general idea of what's being said but that's about it.

The general understanding I took from it was that she was saying that women generally don't use moves that rely heavily on strength. But my Japanese is only slightly better than your average house pet lol.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Was that based on the subs from AEN ? If so I'm not sure how much I would trust what they're saying. They seem acceptable enough to get the general idea of what's being said but that's about it.

The general understanding I took from it was that she was saying that women generally don't use moves that rely heavily on strength. But my Japanese is only slightly better than your average house pet lol.

Good point, I'd better wait for better subs to come out

[Major1138]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Was that based on the subs from AEN ? If so I'm not sure how much I would trust what they're saying. They seem acceptable enough to get the general idea of what's being said but that's about it.

The general understanding I took from it was that she was saying that women generally don't use moves that rely heavily on strength. But my Japanese is only slightly better than your average house pet lol.

That's my understanding as well - other people have talked about hits in kendo depend on more than just making contact - it's about making contact *properly* that counts. Glancing blows and whatnot don't count.

A one-handed strike, by its very nature, relies more on strength to deliver a proper blow - that's why it's not used often by women. It's not that women are discriminated against or anything like that, but rather it's a difficult move to pull off in general, and relies heavily on the user's strength to connect properly, so it's not something that you see often in women's kendo, where moves that rely heavily on strength are rare.

[Futaba-chan]

Originally Posted by Zeroryoko1974

anime enlightments sub was the worst one I have seen since Philanthropies Seto no Hanayome's subs.

You know what the worst fansub is? It's the one that doesn't get done. These guys are A) beginners, learning how to do it, and B) giving you something useful for free. Give them a break, okay?

[Futaba-chan]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Could you please explain tenouchi?

Te-no-uchi is the correct hand position and grip on the tsuka (hilt). In particular, the left hand is placed with the pinky at the tsuka gashira (the end of the hilt), and most of the pressure is applied with the pinky and ring finger of the left hand (and the middle finger, slightly less). The right hand holds the tsuka lightly a couple of fist widths further forward. The left hand is the power hand; the right hand just steers the blade onto the target.

I think what was meant by a katate (one handed) strike "lacking te-no-uchi" is that you lose much of the power contribution from the left hand and wrist because the left hand has to do the steering, and to support the full weight of the shinai. In a morote (two handed) strike, you gain power and speed by squeezing with the bottom fingers of the left hand, which you can't do so much with one hand without losing control. So you wind up using your whole arm motion more, which is weaker.

[Futaba-chan]

Originally Posted by Major1138

hits in kendo depend on more than just making contact - it's about making contact *properly* that counts. Glancing blows and whatnot don't count.

Yep. You also need to start from the right distance (ma ai), to synchronize your strike with your footwork and body motions (ki-ken-tai-ichi), and to kiai loudly as you make contact. Miya-miya wasn't kiai-ing at all when she was landing her attacks, which is one of the reasons why none of them counted.

And you have to have proper hasuji -- a shinai is round, but a real sword is flat and skinny; in a real sword strike, you have to have the blade aligned with your motion, or it will bounce off the target. The same concept applies in kendo.

[Futaba-chan]

Here are some instructional videos about kendo, produced by the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation). They should help in understanding what's going on. In particular, the first video goes into detail about the ashi sabaki lesson that Tama-chan teaches in episode 5, and the second video includes the harai kote combination that Saya uses in her match in episode 6.

Video #1: etiquette, footwork, and other basics

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqVfoBQ7fs
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRZsrVFSs2I
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aczQzsifcDk

Video #2: datotsu (strikes) and shikake waza (offensive combinations)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWyl7OFGhB4
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCOr4G3SqmM
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZQyiRBFbOg

[Wavedash]

Having now seen that screencap, I would also disregard it as a point. The point of contact doesn't strike the top of the men, but rather the mengane (the facemask metal), which is incorrect. This rather strange rule has led to the development of techniques to allow short people to make up for vertical clearance, such as slight jumps to hit the top.

Tenouchi literally only refers to the hand position, but as Futaba implied, the concept in kendo also includes correct grip and balancing of hand force. I did not mean that by using one hand you lose power- that's not the case- but control is a good deal harder to maintain especially when showing zanshin. Ideally the strike should bounce off the head of its own volition, which is somehow easier with two hands than one unless your wrists have been properly trained by long practice.

[grey_moon]

OMG I'm such a child, before I knew what I was doing I was searching the web for Kendo classes in my local area

@Futaba-chan & Wavedash - So from what you are saying is Tama's first one handed strike discounted because it didn't hit the right area?

[Wavedash]

I make no comment about what Futaba thinks; his opinion is independent of mine and indeed there is a good deal of variation and subjectivity in all kendo. Visually it doesn't look like a good hit to me.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Wavedash

I make no comment about what Futaba thinks; his opinion is independent of mine and indeed there is a good deal of variation and subjectivity in all kendo. Visually it doesn't look like a good hit to me.

From the screen cap is that based on where Tama hits, how hard she hits or the way she holds her blade?

[Skane]

To repeat my earlier point, the dismissal of the hit has nothing to do with her gender, but her technique. Tamaki is at a disadvantage due to her size. I don't watch [AEN]'s fansub, so I have no comment on what they wrote, but I am basing my comments on what was translated in the scanlated manga. At no point were they being sexist towards Tamaki. That is a point I wanted to make very clear.

Natch.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Skane

To repeat my earlier point, the dismissal of the hit has nothing to do with her gender, but her technique. Tamaki is at a disadvantage due to her size. I don't watch [AEN]'s fansub, so I have no comment on what they wrote, but I am basing my comments on what was translated in the scanlated manga. At no point were they being sexist towards Tamaki. That is a point I wanted to make very clear.

Natch.

Cheers for clearing it up. I don't really want to highlight any sexist issues or that what not. If the AEN subs led me to believe the wrong thing then that is fair enough, as my posts are based wholly on what I watched in the anime with no influence from reality, manga or other sources.

[Futaba-chan]

Originally Posted by Wavedash

I make no comment about what Futaba thinks; his opinion is independent of mine

"Her", actually. :-) And I don't know enough about katate to judge Tama-chan's strike, other than the fact that mine is clumsy, slow, and awkward when I try it.

[Futaba-chan]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

OMG I'm such a child, before I knew what I was doing I was searching the web for Kendo classes in my local area

You know you want to. All your friends are doing it. First one's free! :-)

Check out http://www.kendo-world.com/community...ederations.php and/or http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=22 for more information....

[arkxkra]

wow, ep7 was impressive, Tamaki was truly high skill. Too bad can't finish to see the fight due to her flash back of her mum when the sensei using that technique.

And Tamaki kawaii as alway

And the collection - Macross? Omg, such a nice media, VHD ... it really a rare collection...

Tamaki seem very shock a bit when the almost end of the anime, next episode what she doing? going for a part time job?

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

The point is that since women have less power, they need to exert themselves more with a one handed strike. Even though it looked solid to you, please consider that it only has the weight of a little girl behind it. That means she needs to strike harder than a boy to make a strike count.

Wow i didnt think this would become such an issue. But if you do not take Kendo i can see how it could be confusing or seem like its discrimination. The above statement is the closest and best explanation for the point at hand. Remember even though its Kendo its based of actual sword play/Bushido in real combat a scratch is not going to defeat your opponet you need to be forceful and make the strike count interms power. The best way i can put it even though i dont want to use the phrase is a killing blow or a effetive way to disarm your opponet.

Imagin if Tama would have used that move in combat. If the opponet was wearing a helmet and the strike was too shallow it would not pierce the helmet, then leaving you open for a counter attack.

On the other hand a strong and percise blow to the head could pierce the helmet striking the opponet in the head. There are also other uses for such a strike getting your opponet off balance is one but it still leaves you open.

Either way it was enjoyable to see Tama do a one handed Men. The series is a lot more fun than i thought it would be.