2020-07-10, 00:49 | Link #24 | |
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I like Michiru well enough, but she is a tad bit to self-righteous for my tastes currently.
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2020-07-10, 04:51 | Link #26 |
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Yes, but, that only works if the person feels that they need to learn a lesson. Sometimes, the problem with keeping things vague is that it allows people an out. Especially, if you only show extreme cases of racism. Someone can go, "Oh, this doesn't apply to me! So, I'm totally not racist." It may be only when you start to point to specific instances, situations, phrases, behaviors, etc, that people can start to see their own faults. Basically, sometimes you have to make it personal if you want people to get it.
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2020-07-10, 05:02 | Link #27 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Such people wouldn't give a damn either way and lot of others (including myself) don't like preachiness in their entertainment so it might have opposite effect. Keep it low-key. Everyone can have fun and who want learn will learn. That was always best method.
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2020-07-10, 09:05 | Link #28 |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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Good grief, I'm tired of all that "you need to understand that you're racist too!" nonsense. Most people aren't racist. Yes there are many racists still around, but it's not something "systemic". The definition has spread so far in some areas that literally anything you do (or not doing those same things) is somehow "racist". This doesn't "teach people" that they need to "change", it just strips all meaning and impact from the word to the point that many people, racist or not, will at best roll their eyes to hear that again. Heck, simply expressing distaste for such statements will be racist in some people's eyes.
As for the show, I've watched the whole thing, marathonned on Netflix a few days ago, and frankly it goes across the board. Basically the message I got is that race relations are complicated. There is a lot of hatred, but there's a lot of hatred directed back and that's really just as destructive. There's claims of criminal or violent tendencies, but in some communities crime and violence can be rampant to the point of being commonplace (it can even get so far that it's seen as "normal" for a couple of young men to suddenly start brawling in line). It's important to treat people the same in some ways, but sometimes that can fail to work with certain individuals (like a migratory "species" having trouble with national insistence on proper procedure when passing through their territory), and sometimes it can be very difficult to find a path that really works to provide freedom to individuals without increasing risks to others. It's important to understand each other, on both sides, and really often neither side is all that willing or driven to do so. And in the end, the community has to work for themselves to change for the better but they can't just shut everyone else out; they need to work to understand and be understood, no matter which side is "them". I also noticed through this and some others the difference in how race is handled in Japan. I'm not sure, but from what bits and pieces I know about racial and national relations with Japan I think there's certain fundamental differences. Far as I can tell, when the Japanese dealt with other races and nationalities they typically were on close to equal standing economically, technologically, etc. As a result, while Western approaches to racism often have a race that'd always been oppressed and had their rights taken from them, in Japan you often see a bit more equality in the conflict. You tend to have more bad things happening on both sides. In some of the series I've seen the other races are from neighboring countries that have a history of war with the main country, resulting in bad memories and resentments on both sides. |
2020-07-10, 16:59 | Link #29 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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At the end of the day I get the feeling that (as of Episode 6), BNA is meant to be a family friendly show targeted at all ages (despite that one scene of the yakuza underling getting brutally murdered on the pier) so a generic message probably is more appropriate, especially for kids who may not understand the nuances of 21st century racism. And one can argue that this is probably better in the long term because you'll have far more success convincing a kid who will remember it for the rest of their lives than you would an adult who is already set in their ways. It's a bit Machiavellian, but maybe the best way of solving these problems is by focusing on education for those that will accept it rather than waste time on those who obviously don't want it. Anyway... Spoiler for Episode 6:
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2020-07-10, 18:01 | Link #30 | |
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@BWTravellor, I generally respect your comments even if I don't always agree with your position, but all I'm going to say to your last one is, please look up systematic racism, it's a thing, it exists, there is proof.
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2020-07-10, 21:05 | Link #31 |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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It may exist to some extent in some places, and certainly existed to a great degree in the past, but in many places it's largely to the point that it's difficult to call it "systematic". It doesn't help that the waters are muddied by the existence of things that are harmful to the poor and uneducated, because yes to this day a significant portion of the black community is in lower income brackets, below or at least approaching the poverty line, and as a result have difficulties obtaining the same level of education as those in higher brackets. That doesn't mean things that are detrimental to low-income communities are racist. They're classist, and it just happens that the proportion of individuals within certain "classes" differs. And ultimately, like I said about the message presented in this series, it is a very complicated issue that cannot be solved simply, much less written off as some form of oppression victimizing a group. It's very difficult to pull oneself up to a higher level of income, or education, or anything. Simply being in a low level creates disadvantages that are nowhere near as easy to overcome as some may think. You need disproportionately more effort, sacrifice, and pure dumb luck the lower on those ladders you are.
And that's part of what I like about this series. It doesn't deny that racists still exist, even in positions of high influence where they can use their power to "deal with" the "problem". But it also doesn't pretend that it's nearly that simple or universal, or that the problem is all on any particular side. There are legitimate issues with crime, some purported to stem from the beatfolks' unique natures, but also clearly connected to more general problems that would be present in any community with similar base issues regardless of species/race. It deals with a huge range of issues and doesn't paint one side as entirely good or bad. And ultimately the answer they decide on is a complex one, to work hard to improve their own city, and to take the first step to improve relations rather than wait for that step to be taken, as well as seeking to draw more interest and aid. Complex and long-term actions to try and deal with a very complex and slow-changing set of problems, and not once pretending that there's an easy answer to any of it. |
2020-07-11, 14:21 | Link #32 | |
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And, how exactly do you think black and brown folks ended up in such poor economic conditions. It certainly wasn't by accident or happenstance. Here's an interesting video to watch, if you really want to know why, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2roWLzrqOjQ. This is just one of the things people are referring to when we talk about systematic racism.
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2020-07-11, 16:10 | Link #33 |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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I did not once claim that the poverty of African Americans was unconnected to past racism. Even an idiot can see that this is the case. But how you got where you are isn't all that often going to help you get out of there. And the fact that systematic racism existed in the past does not mean that it still exists, even if people remain effected. What we have today is by and large far more complicated than "so-and-so is oppressing X groups" or anything like that, and while it certainly is important to recognize the past, dwelling on how one person benefitted from something that happened long ago and another suffered is rarely going to really help fix the problems that remain. It's only a personal opinion, but I honestly believe that it'd be more effective to treat many aspects of modern suffering among low-income blacks, Hispanics or any other race as problems of classism and simple issues of how to improve such groups' economic positions.
And again, that's part of what I like about shows like this and other anime series that deal with difficult subjects like it. It doesn't sit back and pretend that there are easy solutions. It doesn't even claim that it's possible to solve things across the board. There are situations where it's clear a group suffers due to certain situations, but changing that situation is either difficult or legitimately a questionable move. Spoiler for for instance:
The series really doesn't give many declarations of any path or choice being entirely right or wrong, opting instead to simply ask questions, and I like that. Heck, even with extreme situations where it'd be obvious on the surface which side is moral it doesn't simply say one way or another. Spoiler for big matters near the end:
In any case, I overall don't like the word "racism". I feel like it's overused to cover a huge range of things, and many people expand or narrow the term at will as is convenient, resulting in things like one person saying "that's racist" and a guy replying "Blacks can't be racist". Depending on how one uses the term, both could be true, but this results in merely more friction. Might often be better to just say what it is. And yeah, hatred and judgment over someone or some group based on their ethnicity is a very bad thing no matter who you are or what your situation is. Even if you've lived a thousand years, enduring all kinds of persecution and fighting against slavery, genocide and more, a fanatical inability to look at members of another race as individual people first is still a problem and will not lead to anything good. |
2020-07-11, 18:25 | Link #34 | |||
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism https://abc7news.com/systemic-racism...at-is/6292530/ https://www.businessinsider.com/us-s...hs-data-2020-6 But, this will be my final say on this particular aspect of the convo. Quote:
Spoiler for Replying to spoiler:
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2020-07-12, 00:28 | Link #36 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Well it's also true Trump has higher approval among Afro-American community then any other conservative president in decades and that happened after he became president.
Anyway I will not partake in any further discussion about contemporary politics and if you want continue I humbly ask, please move it elsewhere. There is whole subforum about politics here on animesuki.
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2020-07-12, 02:12 | Link #37 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Literally took me like a minute to look it up. Putting aside the cherry picking fallacy of only looking at conservative president approval numbers, it isn't even true... Anyway Spoiler for Episode 7:
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Last edited by Haak; 2020-07-12 at 08:57. |
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2020-07-12, 11:58 | Link #38 | |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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But that (approval rating emphasis) is just to convince more Caucasian voters to vote for him. Others think he's a racist. See the article below. https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ack-americans/
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2020-07-12, 12:25 | Link #39 | |||
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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And Haak, when I say "call it what it is" I mean things like talking about issues with continuing disparity between groups rather than just calling it "racism", or calling it discriminatory practices, or any number of other things. Plenty of things that do indeed classify as "racism", but differ in what exactly they're dealing with, like the difference between an ignorant person not realizing that her framing her situation as a "disease" can be taken wrong versus a person who views all members of a group as hateful bastards. It's just annoying because it is unspecific, and as I said it can result in nonsensical stuff like people choosing to use a narrowed definition when convenient to say things like "I can't be racist!" when their words and opinions are clearly hateful and prejudiced regardless. Ignorance, contempt and vindictive hatred are different things that in some cases require different methods to address them. In any case, I started this out of a distaste for those claims that "you don't know you're racist". People throw "racist" at others far too often, even simply because someone's ideas of what is and isn't effective as a way to deal with problems differ. I understand that a huge portion of minority populations are struggling in a number of ways, and that there are a lot of people out there with all kinds of horrible opinions about such minorities. But my opinions on what is and isn't likely to work differs, as does my opinion on where one draws the line between when a policy can truly be defined as "racist" or not. But just because I don't necessarily consider a policy to be racist doesn't mean I consider the same policy to be good. Whether a black person's suffering is a result of race or class doesn't change his suffering or the desire to help him get out of that position. But just because a person doesn't define a certain situation in terms of race or doesn't agree with a particular effort some other person or group is taking to help people of a particular race doesn't mean the person is racist. And these days some people really take it too far. I've seen people list out "microaggressions" and other things that "prove" a person is racist that, upon even a light examination, eliminates anything you can do, to the point that doing something or FAILING to do that same thing both are demonstrations of it. Last edited by BWTraveller; 2020-07-12 at 13:22. |
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