[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 478 Discussion

[haegar]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Man that's such a lovely sun rise; i'm so glad that Kubo took the time to draw such beautiful scenery.

gotta be the dawn of a new age of plotfail

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He got was punished enough, he lost the only friends and family he's ever truly had. He also got own by someone who is more arrogant than he was. That had to hurt, sine he thought he was invincible.

I suppose that getting beat by Hitsu is punishment enough for anyone...

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He was carried out before the only person who can restore, restored him. She wasn't around and no Shinigami healed him either.

Again, unless Kubo (or a character) confirms his death or we actually see him die/dead (him closing his eyes could mean anything), you can only make assumptions.
Personally, I don't give a rats-arse if he lives or dies...but I think he lived, simply blacked out as he was being carried away. Notice that I said that I think he lived, but it is my opinion, I never stated it as a fact.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I don't believe he's trying to redeem him, he is redeemable-- but I think it was more or less to show why he would follow Ginjou when his powers seemed superior and it also helps to explain why he had such a power. Since hollow powers are based on the soul

I don't think it was boring or pointless. They're nothing like the bounts

Opinions, everybody has one. That's your opinion and it differs from mine, simple as that.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

she's not useless. She's mobile hospital, she doesn't have to fight. Rejection ability is her greatest asset. We have enough warrior women, we don't need Orihime to be one too. I like her just fine the way she i---OKAY TOTAL LIE!!! There are a few things about her character I would change, so she'd be likable but fighting isn't one of them.

Granted the "White Mage" doesn't need to fight, that I understand and that is not what I meant. What I meant was that Orihime has an OP ability, yet aside from healing here and there we've seen her do little that is useful.
In the previous arc for example, she healed Ichigo and a couple others for a bit but after being kidnapped by Stark, she didn't do anything till the end (not counting the emotional thing with Hollow Ichigo...)
What about the SS arc? Saved by Ishida, befriended Yachiru and hanged around on Kenpachi's back...hell even the healing at the end was done by the 4th division.

True, I admit that calling her completely useless was a bit much, but she does little compared to what she could actually do...she quickly turned, for me, into a pure (and a bit annoying) fan-service character that could easily be replaced by say...Hanataru most of the time, for example.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Speak for yourself, I found him very sympathetic at the end. I guess your Mileage May Vary on this one
Another example of Mileage May Vary
It's subjective and has to do with the reader's own morals. Because there are some that would see, doing whatever is required to help the one you love. As a sign of devotion and love. It's a romantic notion no matter how bad his actions were. Humans can be evil but, it depends on one's perceptions of evil. No matter how much he enjoyed it, it doesn't necessarily make him evil
Griko was an evil character. He decided to kill his wife on a whim.
Tousen put it best---
It depends on the reader's code of ethics, morals, and how much they're willing to forgive if they believe the reasons for character's motivation were valid ones.

Okay I’m not going to debate with you about moral relativism because first of all you’re 15 years old and clearly don’t know the hell you’re talking about, as evidenced by quoting Tousen which not only has nothing to do with moral relativism but also doesn’t actually make any frikking sense whatsoever (A prime example of the stupid pseudo-philosophical nonsense Kubo makes his characters spew), and second of all, I don’t even need to because you just monumentally screwed yourself over and here’s why: The manga clearly tried to make them look sympathetic. By basing that attempt on a YMMV moral premise is already a massive failure in itself and needlessly polarises the fan base on a tiny issue. If you’re going to try and make a character look sympathetic, it actually has to be based on something you can see is sympathetic. Otherwise it doesn’t work does it? If Kubo wanted to make it a YMMV thing then a way of doing that would be having characters argue over letting them go or not. It may not be the best way but it’s still better than nothing.

And fyi it’s best not to base your morals on a character that when batshit insane because of said morals (Of all the morals you could've picked you choose the one that Kubo isn't even trying to present as a good one?). In fact I’d recommend you stop reading Bleach altogether considering how much of an affect Kubo’s insane troll logic has had on your morals but I guess it’s too late for that.

I think it's easier to edit your post

Not for me it isn’t.

1) He’s not a minor character: He’s the main antagonist of the arc and villain’s motives are pretty damn important. We know he wanted power but how do we know he just wanted to protect himself and others? It could’ve been that but it could’ve been anything else, including attacking Soul Society since he also told the other full bringers that he was going to change the world. We don’t know.

2) If we’re not supposed to care about Ginjou then why the sad sap bit from him whilst he was fighting? Why did he write crap like that if it was pointless? Waste more panels? He tried to make him look more sympathetic. And he failed.

3) Don’t need to know the minor details? Right yeah of course. Shit happens. Urahara made an ultimate omnipotent wish granting device that consquently drove the entire story and by sheer accident. No need to know how he managed to fucking do that. He just did. This is probably the biggest problem I have with Bleach. It’s skimpy on the details and that reflects poorly on Kubo’s ability to write a story. The best stories are those that pay a close attention to detail. Leaving out little details is like looking at a new but poorly made road with small and noticeable chips and potholes everywhere. You can tell the people who made that road are clearly not skilled or just didn’t bother. The little details matter. Plenty of authors don’t bother and that’s fair enough, but the sheer amount little details that Kubo can’t be arsed fixing is just unbelievable. The entire story is freaking littered with Handwaves. I'd also like to point out that we also don't know why Ginjou kept his Shinigami badge when he knew full well that it was being used to watch him and how he managed to get off Soul Societies radar when he still had the badge. Did he tamper with it? Then why didn't he also try and tamper with Ichigo to make sure they didn't find him through Ichigo? Is he a fucking moron or something?

They're humans and it's not like they held the fate of the world in their hands. SS can't do much to them, because they weren't trying to end the world. As Rukia said "There job is to protect humans not punish them"

You know what’s a good way to protect humans? Capturing dangerous ones. Soul Society was willing to make an elaborate plan just to kill Ginjou. There no reason why they couldn’t have just captured the others. So what if they weren't trying to end the world? “Hey you see that hollow over there that’s eating that boy? Well it’s not like the world is going to end if we just let the hollow eat him. Let’s only deal with him when he’s eaten enough souls to be deemed a possible world ender.” – You see the problem? You don't think there should be a rule that says it's not okay for people to mindfuck others, attack people, cut people's arms off and steal their powers, even though there's a rule that says a Shinigami can't transfer her powers to a human? Can't do much to them? Are you serious? I'm sure capturing them and putting them on trial, at least to garner their intentions, is not asking for the unreasonable. It's like I said before - It's hard to empathise with characters that just seem to constantly act like they're completely out of touch with reality or any sort of common sense for that matter.

Just like Starrk. You didn't actually see him die, but you know he died....

You mean just like Hallibel and Grimmjow? Oh wait...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Again, unless Kubo (or a character) confirms his death or we actually see him die/dead (him closing his eyes could mean anything), you can only make assumptions.
Personally, I don't give a rats-arse if he lives or dies...but I think he lived, simply blacked out as he was being carried away. Notice that I said that I think he lived, but it is my opinion, I never stated it as a fact.

This is true. Kubo shown to have little problem with leaving characters' fates in the air--like Kensei and Grimmjow--so maybe we'll never have a definite answer about Tsukishima. I'm actually even a little doubtful about Ginjou, since Tsuki makes it seem as if he definitely died but then no one seems to actually mention what happens to his body (Jackie mentions she buried Giriko, I guess it's kinda implied Tsukishima did the same with Ginjou's body).

But either way, judging by Tsukishima's condition and state of mind, I don't think there's much chance of him making an appearance again soon. It's time for new villains. This seems to be a pretty clean break for the fullbring arc. It that's the case, then the upcoming chapters would begin the long (and supposedly final) arc of Bleach, which should have a large focus on Isshin.

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I am not denying that she feels for him, her feelings for Ichigo are strong. Just not strong enough to be on Ichigo's side. She went against him, even Byakuya was able to fight Tsukishima, no matter what bonds he believed they had.

I doubt there's anyone with the power to over-brain Byakuya (with the exception of Aizen, but that type of encounter didn't really happen).

Rukia didn't get bookmarked at all and had an unwavering belief in Ichigo.

Looks like the KuchiKi's feelings are stronger
Lol how she stole the spotlight from Orihime too. Ichigo was so concerned over Riruka waited for her to awake, (NOT ORIHIME) and even gave her a tender look when Orihime asks if she's crying.

Orihime's cuteness went unnoticed by Ichigo, again. Literally ignored her.

You're trying too hard to troll. In order to be successful, discretionary subtlety is recommended.

More like an overpowered brat

Egotistical more like it. His power was certainly not enough to beat Hitsugaya (one of the more amateur captains imo). And lets be serious, the only Shinigami that matter are Captains and VCs/top seats (who might as well be on captain level strength)

Originally Posted by Haak

You mean just like Hallibel and Grimmjow? Oh wait...

Wasn't Harribel confirmed as being alive? Or was that just the anime?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Wasn't Harribel confirmed as being alive? Or was that just the anime?

Yes exactly. LoP is saying that we don't need to see them die in order for us to know they're dead. That may be true in any other story but not in Bleach...

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Wasn't Harribel confirmed as being alive? Or was that just the anime?

Actually before the anime it was confirmed in a Data Book by Kubo himself. Which is a prime example of what I mean when I say, unless the author confirms it (either directly or through a scene or something) then we cannot state the fate of a character as a sure fact, we can only make assumptions.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

she's not useless. She's mobile hospital, she doesn't have to fight. Rejection ability is her greatest asset. We have enough warrior women, we don't need Orihime to be one too. I like her just fine the way she i---OKAY TOTAL LIE!!! There are a few things about her character I would change, so she'd be likable but fighting isn't one of them.

oh my beef with orihime is not that she's useless, i don't think she is, but i'm annoyed that she hasn't really grown as a character. she's still the same ichigo fangirl we knew two years ago. her life practically revolves around ichigo. she exists for him. and she's still an airhead! i'd like to see her exist for herself for once, stand up for herself without thinking about ichigo. maybe that's why ichigo doesn't seem to notice her, she's always there, hanging around for him to give her a little attention.

Use your imagination. He's a Shinigami-human baby, the "how's" and "why's" doesn't matter. Those are minor details. He's also a Shinigami subsitute. That's all we need to know

Again that's a minor detail. "How" he found out isn't important, he did find out and that's all that matters

He did escape, he disappeared and again that's a minor detail. He managed to escape and they had no idea where he was.

Because they didn't know where he was, they intended to use Ichigo to flush him out, then destroy them both. That's all we need to know.

speak for yourself. the rest of us would like to know what really went on in soul society and who ginjo really was. you do realize that he's one of the reasons if not the reason why soul society created a law that prohibits shinigami from giving powers to humans, right? this was the same law that got rukia into so much trouble and started this whole drama. you seem to think that details are not so important in stories of this scale, but you're wrong. i agree with haak, without the details there are no stories, just incoherent incidents that make no sense. this is what i've been driving at since this arc ended. where's the resolution? where's the story? what's the use of this arc if you don't understand its purpose or what's it all about? like i said in my previous post, i do see the potential of this arc, but the way kubo wrote it is just plain careless. he needs to pay more attention to details. even his art is lacking. he seems to be more into blank spaces these days.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

this is what i've been driving at since this arc ended. where's the resolution? where's the story? what's the use of this arc if you don't understand its purpose or what's it all about?

The real "purpose" of the arc was to get Ichigo his powers back so he can go on shinigami adventures again. Though I do get your point here, because Kubo dangled the carrot of Ginjou's past in front of the reader's nose and snatched it away just when it seemed like there would be an in-depth explanation.

But the story did flesh out Soul Society's initial hostility towards Ichigo. Also, it's worth mentioning that just because Ginjou is dead doesn't mean that details about his past won't ever be brought up. Kubo does reference past events, even if it's just in snatches.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The real "purpose" of the arc was to get Ichigo his powers back so he can go on shinigami adventures again.

Exactly. This entire arc was just one massive contrived plot device.

But what ronin myael was asking for was not a Doylist answer you know. It's actually bad to have to resort to Doylist logic to answer things.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But the story did flesh out Soul Society's initial hostility towards Ichigo. Also, it's worth mentioning that just because Ginjou is dead doesn't mean that details about his past won't ever be brought up. Kubo does reference past events, even if it's just in snatches.

At which point we probably won't care anymore.

[White Silver King]

So is this arc finally over?

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Haak

Exactly. This entire arc was just one massive contrived plot device.

But what ronin myael was asking for was not a Doylist answer you know. It's actually bad to have to resort to Doylist logic to answer things.

At which point we probably won't care anymore.

thank you! i was about to say that! what's the use of explaining when the story has already gone past its climax? this arc should give us answers, not more questions. kubo keeps digging himself into a deeper hole when he should be tying up loose ends. if this is supposed to be the second to the last arc of the whole series, it's about time he starts revealing answers to his "age-old" mysteries.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

You're trying too hard to troll. In order to be successful, discretionary subtlety is

Are you having an identity crisis or something? Or do you always refer to yourself in the third party?

You put "you're" where "I'm" should be

Because you troll me every chance you get. (You're just not successful at it)

You're not subtle either---I really hope that you're not under the illusion that you're subtle because you're anything but.


TBH I wasn't trying to be subtle, I was only following your example--I was just being a wise ass. What can I say?... I learn from the BEST<33

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Wasn't Harribel confirmed as being alive? Or was that just the anime?

Originally Posted by Haak

Yes exactly. LoP is saying that we don't need to see them die in order for us to know they're dead. That may be true in any other story but not in Bleach...

We didn't see Kaien die yet we all know he's dead

Um I don't recall ever telling either of you, that I believed Harribel was dead. Especially since it was unbelievable to me that she could die from a minor wound like the one Aizen gave her.

So your point is is NULL AND VOID

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

This is true. Kubo shown to have little problem with leaving characters' fates in the air--like Kensei and Grimmjow--so maybe we'll never have a definite answer about Tsukishima. I'm actually even a little doubtful about Ginjou, since Tsuki makes it seem as if he definitely died but then no one seems to actually mention what happens to his body (Jackie mentions she buried Giriko, I guess it's kinda implied Tsukishima did the same with Ginjou's body).

But either way, judging by Tsukishima's condition and state of mind, I don't think there's much chance of him making an appearance again soon. It's time for new villains. This seems to be a pretty clean break for the fullbring arc. It that's the case, then the upcoming chapters would begin the long (and supposedly final) arc of Bleach, which should have a large focus on Isshin.

Ginjou is a Shinigami, when they die the don't leave body behind

Tsukishima was not one, so it's safe to assume he did die

As for GJ he's in this color page (gotta find link to color page) along with all the other dead guys

Kubo stated in UnMasked that he actually intended to kill him much earlier on but his popularity forced him to keep him a while longer an he speaks as if he's dead.


My experience is....if a character confirms he's dead (Like Matsu and Kira did Gin) fans will cry and say he could be alive and the character is mistaken

If he dies in front of us, they will stay it's ambiguous and still try to show all the reasons he's alive.

either way the debate will continue...

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

More trolling...

Uh huh.

TBH I wasn't trying to be subtle, I was only following your example--I was just being a wise ass. What can I say?

It's boring if there's 2. Though I understand this is a defensive reaction so I'll let up.

We didn't see Kaien die yet we all know he's dead

The Espada ate him and gained his memories. There's direct evidence for it (like when Aaraneiro shared those memories).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Haak

Exactly. This entire arc was just one massive contrived plot device.

But what ronin myael was asking for was not a Doylist answer you know. It's actually bad to have to resort to Doylist logic to answer things.

I didn't "resort" to any answer. In my book, ronin's criticisms are mostly valid. I mean, if you want to go into details, it seems like the main message of this arc was to show Ichigo's impact on Soul Society and his ability to change things with unwavering determination. Ginjou's role was more to just to be an example of how SS previously viewed substitute shinigami before Ichigo changed things (threats to be exterminated given the chance). How Ginjou actually caused Soul Society to take that view is something Kubo's decided not to approach or is saving for later.

But really, all that's just beating around the bush. As far as progressing the plot, everything in this arc was secondary to Ichigo getting his powers back. I felt pointing that out was necessary to get beyond arguing the deeper implications of this arc because frankly, I think it's too easy to go in circles discussing it. Either this outcome is all we get, or the full impact from the events of this arc haven't been revealed yet.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Ginjou is a Shinigami, when they die the don't leave body behind

Well, the jury's still out on that. Tousen was shown standing over his shinigami friend's body at her funeral and Rukia took Kaien's body back to the Shiba clan. It was said that shinigami bodies break down into pure reishi when they die, but it's not likely that's an immediate process.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

As for GJ he's in this color page (gotta find link to color page) along with all the other dead guys.

Kubo stated in UnMasked that he actually intended to kill him much earlier on but his popularity forced him to keep him a while longer an he speaks as if he's dead.

He's probably dead then. But the point here is that we have one example of characters that seemed definitely dead--Halibel and her group-- but later shown alive. There's already a precedent. A color spread isn't a commitment. Ginjou was shown in a spread where he was among Ichigo's friends serving the shinigami as waiting staff. That misled a few people into thinking it was a hint he was going to be a permanent addition to Ichigo's group.

Kubo just hasn't provided closure for some characters. Some of them are pretty much dead for certain (Stark) and some of them are more than likely alive (Kensei, Nel)

[Haak]

You don't care from the start

Well I know for a fact that I care more than you do since you're clearly satisfied with the main points and none of the details.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

We didn't see Kaien die yet we all know he's dead

We have the benefit of characters specifically saying he was dead which we could interpret as exposition. Naturally you don't have the privilege due to your insane belief that characters could "simply be lying" in order to explain retcons so thats kinda come back to bite you in the ass. Nevertheless, that's your problem. Not ours.

Um I don't recall ever telling either of you, that I believed Harribel was dead. Especially since it was unbelievable to me that she could die from a minor wound like the one Aizen gave her.

So your point is is NULL AND VOID

Minor wound? How could you possibly judge it's a minor wound when we never even saw it? All we saw was a line go through her. Explain how a "minor wound" somehow left her incapacitated for the rest of the battle.

The fact of the matter is that we can not ever be sure someone is dead just because he looks dead in Bleach. We need specific character confirmation and even then that's not outright proof since Kubo can easily retcon it later. Also, Paratext is generally not a good way to confirm a character's death.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I didn't "resort" to any answer.

I meant generally. It wasn't specifically directed at you. But yeah that's definitely "resorting" if we have no choice or if it's the best one.

In my book, ronin's criticisms are mostly valid. I mean, if you want to go into details, it seems like the main message of this arc was to show Ichigo's impact on Soul Society and his ability to change things with unwavering determination. Ginjou's role was more to just to be an example of how SS previously viewed substitute shinigami before Ichigo changed things (threats to be exterminated given the chance). How Ginjou actually caused Soul Society to take that view is something Kubo's decided not to approach or is saving for later.

But really, all that's just beating around the bush. As far as progressing the plot, everything in this arc was secondary to Ichigo getting his powers back. I felt pointing that out was necessary to get beyond arguing the deeper implications of this arc because frankly, I think it's too easy to go in circles discussing it. Either this outcome is all we get, or the full impact from the events of this arc haven't been revealed yet.

Well I can't argue with you there since I also think it's mostly pointless to speculate and that we have to restort to Doylist answers in most cases. But regardless, ronin mayael wasn't trying to dicuss the deeper implications. His questions were rhetorical so it's kinda weird for you to respond that way.

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by White Silver King

So is this arc finally over?

I hope so -__-

Hoping that Riruka sticks around for at least a bit longer though. She was one of the most interesting characters in this arc. Maybe Kubo won't do his dumb thing where characters just "disappear"..


Yukio has almost the same eyes as Rukia. Just noticed that too heh

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The real "purpose" of the arc was to get Ichigo his powers back so he can go on shinigami adventures again. Though I do get your point here, because Kubo dangled the carrot of Ginjou's past in front of the reader's nose and snatched it away just when it seemed like there would be an in-depth explanation.

if the real purpose of this arc is to get ichigo his powers back, then why does kubo have to introduce fullbring when all it really took was a reiatsu-powered sword from ichigo's shinigami friends? he could have written an arc that would delve into isshin's past and how he lost his powers and regained them. or maybe even something about the soul king. and yet kubo chose to give us fullbring. the thing is, he led us to believe there's a reason why he introduced the fullbringers and most especially ginjo. we don't even know for sure if he was half shinigami and half human. we know nothing of his background. all we know is he was made a substitute shinigami. he could be just another human with strong spiritual powers that soul society felt could be of use to them.

whether kubo chooses to reveal these supposed secrets or save them for later doesn't really matter because the fact is, kubo wrote this arc badly. the whole arc just feels like random events that you can barely piece together to make out the slightest sense. i have no problems with mysteries. mysteries can be dragged out for several chapters without compromising the quality of the story if the writer knows how to present them in such a way that each scene/event becomes a piece of the puzzle that would come together by the time the arc ends. kubo doesn't need to go into a detailed explanation to give us the resolution that this arc needs.

[deathandstrawberry]

hey guys

so you say the arc is finished with some unanswered questions? i hope they will give some answers in the next few parts. would love to know more about urahara and ichigo's father.

i think that the arc in general was ok, loved it that ichigo got his powers back.. i think it's the best part of the manga when he discovers some new power in him and goes crazy fighting!

i just hope there won't be a filler in the anime after this :/ though some of the fillers where actually good, i like the one with the zanbakutu rebellion.

cheers and happy new year all!

[Kafriel]

so you say the arc is finished with some unanswered questions? i hope they will give some answers in the next few parts.

Remember how that worked out in the previous arc?

i think it's the best part of the manga when he discovers some new power in him and goes crazy fighting!

i just hope there won't be a filler in the anime after this

In a sense, this was a filler arc. It could have been condensed into a chapter of Ichigo getting his powers back with a new look. Main character relationships remain untouched, Ichigo's new and improved power is GT and the characters introduced in this arc are highly unlikely to make a comeback.

whether kubo chooses to reveal these supposed secrets or save them for later doesn't really matter because the fact is, kubo wrote this arc badly. the whole arc just feels like random events that you can barely piece together to make out the slightest sense. i have no problems with mysteries. mysteries can be dragged out for several chapters without compromising the quality of the story if the writer knows how to present them in such a way that each scene/event becomes a piece of the puzzle that would come together by the time the arc ends. kubo doesn't need to go into a detailed explanation to give us the resolution that this arc needs

QFE.