Monogatari Series Second Season - Episode 23 [END] Discussion / Poll (Hitagi End VI)

[JTeague]

Originally Posted by ronelm2000

You don't see Bakemonogatari starting with Kizu....I wonder why the change...

Bakemonogatari was the first novel. Kizu was the 3rd novel. I think they wanted to follow the publication order at first and were going to have Kizu for a movie, but then changed their mind and switched to chronology? I think they intentionally skipped Hana because they intentionally wanted the cliffhanger.


Still I wonder, does senjougahara have lingering feelings for Kaiki? or does she just have a new respect/appreciation for him. And is the reverse true for Kaiki as well?

as a koyomixhitagi shipper I'm a little put off. I don't feel like Hitagi's being emotionally honest.

[tsunade666]

Ah.... glorious final episode.... this is the final episode of the season right? glorious death for Kaiki. you will be missed. Just like how I cry for Mayoi, I won't cry for you. But I will miss you. When it actually stopped or the episode ended. I actually question the show.

"that's it?"

he died?

wtf ending

but still good and godly ending.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't care what the so-called "facts" are. I want more Senjougahara x Araragi. The novels are not the "truth," the anime is my truth.

... and I want to see Hitagi X Suruga, but that's not what the story is about, and regardless of shipping preferences, I still enjoy the novels for not bothering with our petty preferences and sticking to their theme

Originally Posted by JTeague

Bakemonogatari was the first novel. Kizu was the 3rd novel. I think they wanted to follow the publication order at first and were going to have Kizu for a movie, but then changed their mind and switched to chronology? I think they intentionally skipped Hana because they intentionally wanted the cliffhanger.

Changed their mind? doubtful... more likely they messed up their scheduling... again, and now they are stuck with an unreleased movie about the best novel in the series that is no longer significant to the story (considering Neko-/Shiro and Oni-)

Originally Posted by JTeague

Still I wonder, does senjougahara have lingering feelings for Kaiki? or does she just have a new respect/appreciation for him. And is the reverse true for Kaiki as well?

IMHO, yes she does, it's her first love... even if unrequited, it's really hard to get over it... that of course doesn't mean that anything can happen now between them, just regret, lingering feelings, etc.

[JTeague]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Changed their mind? doubtful... more likely they messed up their scheduling... again, and now they are stuck with an unreleased movie about the best novel in the series that is no longer significant to the story (considering Neko-/Shiro and Oni-)



IMHO, yes she does, it's her first love... even if unrequited, it's really hard to get over it... that of course doesn't mean that anything can happen now between them, just regret, lingering feelings, etc.

Change their minds was more me being polite. I don't have a lot of complaints with Shaft since the adaptation is really good compared to most other light novel adaptations. And they promised to adapt the whole entire series, unlike what happens with a lot of other light novel series. So I'm really grateful at there being more monogatari in general. But they really have messed up like you said.

And yeah, even though it bothers me it's undeniable that Hitagi had lingering feelings. and they probably have grown a bit after this arc after she gained more appreciation and respect for Kaiki. But I'm really more curious towards Kaiki's feelings on Senjougahara. I feel like, it's mostly that he has a high level of respect towards her, and probably thinks Araragi isn't good enough for her since he respects her. But does Kaiki have anything more than that? Even if nothing ever comes of it.

Time's like this reminds me how much Nisio Issin likes to mess with his audience. In all his works I followed, the love stories took a back seat to everything else and mainly popped up to mess with your head once in a while.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by JTeague

And yeah, even though it bothers me it's undeniable that Hitagi had lingering feelings. and they probably have grown a bit after this arc after she gained more appreciation and respect for Kaiki. But I'm really more curious towards Kaiki's feelings on Senjougahara. I feel like, it's mostly that he has a high level of respect towards her, and probably thinks Araragi isn't good enough for her since he respects her. But does Kaiki have anything more than that? Even if nothing ever comes of it.

.

I think that he saw her as nothing more than a child. He knew Hitagi's affection for him, even though he did not return her love, he still had affection and respect for her. It seems totally platonic - Kaiki is a gentleman, not a perverted pedo like Araragi.

About Araragi is not good enough for Hitagi...well, I think he's not the only one who think so here. Even though the author keeps telling us they are meant to be together, I cannot help feeling bad for Hitagi when her lovers keeps chasing skirts and acting perverted toward every girls, lesbian and loli with his obsession of "Saving everybody" that approaches the level of Shirou Emiya...

But that's what you have with any harem. Unconventional a harem as Monogatari is, I still find myself sometimes wish that it is not a harem, and therefore those cute girls could find some men that are more suitable for them,

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

About Araragi is not good enough for Hitagi...well, I think he's not the only one who think so here. Even though the author keeps telling us they are meant to be together, I cannot help feeling bad for Hitagi when her lovers keeps chasing skirts and acting perverted toward every girls, lesbian and loli with his obsession of "Saving everybody" that approaches the level of Shirou Emiya...

As Hitagi said herself, Araragi's hopeless whiteknight syndrome is what she loves about him. So she could never truly stop him aiding other damsel in distress, because that's the kind of man she choose.

If one marry a hero, one can't expect the hero to stop going on quests.

On the other hand, Araragi rejected an honest proposal from Hanekawa, a girl he physically lusts after. So you can't say he didn't take his status as a boyfriend seriously.

[JTeague]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I think that he saw her as nothing more than a child. He knew Hitagi's affection for him, even though he did not return her love, he still had affection and respect for her. It seems totally platonic - Kaiki is a gentleman, not a perverted pedo like Araragi.

About Araragi is not good enough for Hitagi...well, I think he's not the only one who think so here. Even though the author keeps telling us they are meant to be together, I cannot help feeling bad for Hitagi when her lovers keeps chasing skirts and acting perverted toward every girls, lesbian and loli with his obsession of "Saving everybody" that approaches the level of Shirou Emiya...

But that's what you have with any harem. Unconventional a harem as Monogatari is, I still find myself sometimes wish that it is not a harem, and therefore those cute girls could find some men that are more suitable for them,

Yeah. You're right. I also think that's why Nisio has been curbing his harem.
Mayoi's out, Nadeko's out. Kanbaru is still a lesbian and she'll probably go her own way eventually, Hanekawa will probably become a traveler like she said. Newer additions to the harem haven't really lasted long either.

I think Nisio might've created the harem as a plot device to develop Araragi as a character, and he never intended for them to be a real harem akin to other harem series.

So since the story is slowly coming to a close the harem's slowly disbanding. This is more born from speculations I read from other forum than something I came up with on my own though. And a lot of the latest stories sort of drove a point "you can't save everyone", so maybe that's for him to mature. who knows.

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Changed their mind? doubtful... more likely they messed up their scheduling... again, and now they are stuck with an unreleased movie about the best novel in the series that is no longer significant to the story (considering Neko-/Shiro and Oni-)

Well, Kizu is not the only best novel in the series. Kabuki and Owari 1 can be considered the best entries too.
I think Shaft must be thinking to delay the movie premier until third season anime is released, to avoid unnecessary possible spoilers or speculations about the ending of the series. My 2cents though.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by JTeague

I think Nisio might've created the harem as a plot device to develop Araragi as a character, and he never intended for them to be a real harem akin to other harem series.

If Nise is used as basis for a speculation... don't count too much on it

Anyway, with Nisio usually most of the cast is female. It's not exactly a harem, but it looks close enough to one.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As Hitagi said herself, Araragi's hopeless whiteknight syndrome is what she loves about him. So she could never truly stop him aiding other damsel in distress, because that's the kind of man she choose.

If one marry a hero, one can't expect the hero to stop going on quests.

On the other hand, Araragi rejected an honest proposal from Hanekawa, a girl he physically lusts after. So you can't say he didn't take his status as a boyfriend seriously.

Yes, I get that it is meant to be character development, but it is not good executed in my opinion.

I don't have any problem with him having friendship and such and whiteknight syndrome with all girl in his harem, but during Onimonogatari or Nisemonogatari, sometimes I seriously have to wonder is the whole perverted acts really contributes anything to the characters rather than meaningless fanservice? I would rather like Araragi has normal friendship without loli-undertones toward Okonogi or Mayoi. And it is actually very hard for me to read every-single-scences he acted perverted toward his sisters. Why can't they have a normal sibling relationship, oh why?

You may say that Monogatari use the harem element for character development and all, but for me, it actually ruined my view of Araragi. In the same way, it also leaves a bad taste whenever I think about his-supposed-main-canon-relationship. After Nise finished airing , I have had lost all of my respect for him. And I used to respect him in Bake, with his character development throughout the series and the fact that his loli or pervert tendency has not become over the top.

But I guess to each his own and many people enjoy those harem elements or those perverted moments, so maybe it is some of the series's charms as well. Only I could never enjoy or appreciate those charms.

I watch Monogatari because I enjoy the subtle supernatural elements in its story, I found some of the characters charming and I like those interesting visual from Shaft. Maybe it's just I am not in the target audience of those skirt-chasing scene.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

In Monogatari, kids act like kids and adults act like adults. Unusual, really. So Araragi is not exactly a BoyScout. Then again neither are the women in his life. Children would be children.

[DragoZERO]

Whaaa!?!?! That's how it ends!? Really!? And here I thought I would have had a conclusion that wouldn't leave me wanting more. Agh. And how cruel...just when the viewer starts to like Kaiki.. he does. And in such a lame way too. I want explanations... need another series, please!

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In Monogatari, kids act like kids and adults act like adults. Unusual, really. So Araragi is not exactly a BoyScout. Then again neither are the women in his life. Children would be children.

Come on, as a teenager Araragi is not realistic. How many teenager (not really children) that you know would have that intimate tooth brush scene with his sisters, or grobbing his sister just because he feel like it, or jump to molest an innocent loli? His "sexual predator" aspect is clearly not, and probably blown out of porpotion for some cheap laugh,at the sacrifice of his character development. That's what I am having a problem with.


Nision Isshin could be a good writer when the man want it, but he wrote MASSIVE filler dialoque and annoying pointless fan service in his novel as well. I am annoyed by it, but I guess other readers found it charming or such, so it is personal taste after all.

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Come on, as a teenager Araragi is not realistic. How many teenager (not really children) that you know would have that intimate tooth brush scene with his sisters, or grobbing his sister just because he feel like it, or jump to molest an innocent loli? His "sexual predator" aspect is clearly not, and probably blown out of porpotion for some cheap laugh,at the sacrifice of his character development. That's what I am having a problem with.


Nision Isshin could be a good writer when the man want it, but he wrote MASSIVE filler dialoque and annoying pointless fan service in his novel as well. I am annoyed by it, but I guess other readers found it charming or such, so it is personal taste after all.

And apparently that's Nisio's fetish.
You just need to cope with that issue in Monogatari.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Whaaa!?!?! That's how it ends!? Really!? And here I thought I would have had a conclusion that wouldn't leave me wanting more. Agh. And how cruel...just when the viewer starts to like Kaiki.. he does. And in such a lame way too. I want explanations... need another series, please!

Did Kaiki die, though? I think we're being fooled by him. And I can think of two reasons:

1. The whole story was told from his perspective. How can a dead narrator tell us a highly detailed story like this?

2. He stated back in episode 1 of Koi that, due to him being a con man, his words can't be fully trusted, and that the story might have to be taken with a grain of salt. Personally, I think the whole story is true, but that he lied about him being attacked, let alone dying. And even if he did get attacked, was his wound indeed fatal or did he survive?

If he can make a teenager believe she's suffering from some sort of curse/oddity, I'm sure he could fool us into thinking he got killed as well.

[JTeague]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Yes, I get that it is meant to be character development, but it is not good executed in my opinion.

I don't have any problem with him having friendship and such and whiteknight syndrome with all girl in his harem, but during Onimonogatari or Nisemonogatari, sometimes I seriously have to wonder is the whole perverted acts really contributes anything to the characters rather than meaningless fanservice? I would rather like Araragi has normal friendship without loli-undertones toward Okonogi or Mayoi. And it is actually very hard for me to read every-single-scences he acted perverted toward his sisters. Why can't they have a normal sibling relationship, oh why?

You may say that Monogatari use the harem element for character development and all, but for me, it actually ruined my view of Araragi. In the same way, it also leaves a bad taste whenever I think about his-supposed-main-canon-relationship. After Nise finished airing , I have had lost all of my respect for him. And I used to respect him in Bake, with his character development throughout the series and the fact that his loli or pervert tendency has not become over the top.

But I guess to each his own and many people enjoy those harem elements or those perverted moments, so maybe it is some of the series's charms as well. Only I could never enjoy or appreciate those charms.

I watch Monogatari because I enjoy the subtle supernatural elements in its story, I found some of the characters charming and I like those interesting visual from Shaft. Maybe it's just I am not in the target audience of those skirt-chasing scene.

That in itself is kind of sad, because it's become an acknowledged fact that Nisio writes those scenes cause he's a pervert himself. It's like Araragi's character and image suffers so Nisio can get his kicks.

I always thought it was kind of funny, but the way you put it made me realize it's also kind of sad. The saving grace is that it's more than once implied that Hitagi is fully aware of Araragi's skirt chasing and punishes him for it every time.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

Did Kaiki die, though? I think we're being fooled by him. And I can think of two reasons:

1. The whole story was told from his perspective. How can a dead narrator tell us a highly detailed story like this?

2. He stated back in episode 1 of Koi that, due to him being a con man, his words can't be fully trusted, and that the story might have to be taken with a grain of salt. Personally, I think the whole story is true, but that he lied about him being attacked, let alone dying. And even if he did get attacked, was his wound indeed fatal or did he survive?

If he can make a teenager believe she's suffering from some sort of curse/oddity, I'm sure he could fool us into thinking he got killed as well.

I thought of that but was thinking it was Nisio messing with us. I guess there is no telling who we can trust.

Those are good points though. Thanks for mentioning them.

[molitar]

I really hope that Kaiki does not die so the truth about the EVILNESS of Ougi comes out! She is EVIL incarnate! She tricked Nadeko to become that Snake God than tricked her into wanting to kill Araragi and Senjougahara. Her plan is ruined to kill them by Kaiki so she gets pissed and has him attacked! She is a spawn of Satan as she is also that black evil void that destroys anything from ever existing! Wonder what she will hatch up next to kill Araragi.

[GDB]

She didn't trick Nadeko into killing Araragi, that was pure Nadeko. All she did was trick her into becoming the snake god. And if Ougi really wanted to kill Araragi... she'd just kill him. This isn't some saturday morning cartoon where the bad guy needs to use some elaborate Joker-esque plan to beat the hero. Especially if she is the Darkness, since she could easily just swallow him up while they're talking one day.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by GDB

She didn't trick Nadeko into killing Araragi, that was pure Nadeko. All she did was trick her into becoming the snake god. And if Ougi really wanted to kill Araragi... she'd just kill him. This isn't some saturday morning cartoon where the bad guy needs to use some elaborate Joker-esque plan to beat the hero. Especially if she is the Darkness, since she could easily just swallow him up while they're talking one day.

That's an important point for the greater story overlapping each arc... My impression was that Ougi wanted to foil Gaen's attempt to restore Shinobu into godhood, Nadeko just seemed convenient, and I also doubt that this has any relevance to Koyomi.

By the way, since I haven't read the second season's novels, does Ougi appear so suddenly in there too... like she was always a student, and just never never interracted with the cast before her "uncle" left?

... or I missing something here