(L) Magi - Labyrinth of Magic [manga]

[Twi]

My issue is that it screwed over the poor in the process.

[DragonOsman]

It's a normal side-effect. Sinbad didn't do that on purpose, you know?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

It's a normal side-effect. Sinbad didn't do that on purpose, you know?

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

lol now your making it seem like he's Aizen from Bleach. He planned it!
Of course that's just my assumption on what you've said.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

You're basically saying that he shouldn't do anything at all, then?

It's impossible to do something as massive as remaking the world without some negative consequences coming out somewhere.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

I disagree with it, sure he might aware of that it will happen, but it's different from doing it on purpose

The things is, Sinbad would employs regardless of whether Kou empire is there or not, he also knew that's it's impossible for Kou to change fast enough. So yes, to a certain extent, you could say that he is responsible for Kou empire downfall, but certainly not that he is purposely causing Kou empire downfall, though this is just our speculation before further info is acquired.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Fairy Water

Is it better? It feels just like our current world If the poor could never be rich, what will they become?

It's up to them. They have to rely on themselves.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

The only country really suffering from the changes Sinbad brought to the world is Kou and that's their own fault. Again, Kou is a country that has always been relying on wars, and now that there are no more wars, Kou is falling. Alibaba will hopefully save it, though

Kou was a soviet union. Now Kou is Russia in 90s. Without black gold pipes

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

There are always good and bad side. At least Sindab gives a chance to change. In Kou you would always be on a certain class level. Forever.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

There always will be some cast who do not want to work, to learn but just only recieve supplies from the government

[Se7enSword]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default. Someone as smart as Sinbad would know that.

Considering that, I can only conclude he did do it on purpose.

100% Agreed.

What does Sinbad get from crippling Kou?

- More land
- More resources
- More power

It was no coincidence that they crippled Kou that devastatingly, plus this is Sinbad. He's a well-established merchant and he's no political slouch. Have you all forgotten Zepar? He's manipulative too.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Se7enSword

100% Agreed.

What does Sinbad get from crippling Kou?

- More land
- More resources
- More power

He's already got more of that than he knows what to do with. He mostly gets more mouths to feed: Hakuryu failed and passed the buck to Kougyoku, who, before Alibaba arrived, was about to pass the buck to the Alliance. Then it would have been Sinbad's job to teach those guys to feed themselves in this new world.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Capitalism produces poverty by default.

Rather, it fails to eliminate it completely. Unless it replaces a mythical system where no one is poor. (And no, Kou's misery factory doesn't qualify.)

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Rather, it fails to eliminate it completely. Unless it replaces a mythical system where no one is poor. (And no, Kou's misery factory doesn't qualify.)

You cannot simply eliminate. As long as there people who can't and don't produce anything, there always be will poor.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

You cannot simply eliminate. As long as there people who can't and don't produce anything, there always be will poor.

Not necessarily. If the "producers" make enough surplus, there may be enough to go around. Of course, some will have less than others, but everyone may have food, shelter, and so on all the way to the top of Maslow's pyramid of needs. (Unless they need to have a real job, I guess.)

That's the way we seem to be headed, from everyone making just enough to not die (back before money was invented...) to fewer and fewer people making more and more total wealth.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not necessarily. If the "producers" make enough surplus, there may be enough to go around. Of course, some will have less than others, but everyone may have food, shelter, and so on all the way to the top of Maslow's pyramid of needs. (Unless they need to have a real job, I guess.)

That's the way we seem to be headed, from everyone making just enough to not die (back before money was invented...) to fewer and fewer people making more and more total wealth.

That's the thing I don't like. Why I should pay more just because I earn more? It's not like I get money from doing nothing. It's not whether I work as hard as miners but anyway

I am living in the country (post soviet) without progressive tax system and people often claim that I need to pay more from my income to have in the end the same amount of money as them. What they do not understand is that the goods won't become cheaper there after that - it's just higher-ups will be able to steal more

The more global problem I believe is not the lack of work. It's more that people lack the work they think they deserve ."No opportunities, no enough salary" and etc. But well when you buy the last orange in the store and people after you are unable to buy oranges at all, it's not that you should pay for that

Of course a lot of people want to make money from the air - and that's what unemployement benefits do -> just by living there you are recieving money and some other bonuses. (though the original idea I presume was to help a person to survive while he is looking for the work - but it failed )

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Rather, it fails to eliminate it completely.

That would imply that reducing poverty is a goal of capitalism, which is not true. Capitalism's goal is the accumulation of wealth, and that produces poverty by default.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

That's the thing I don't like. Why I should pay more just because I earn more? It's not like I get money from doing nothing. It's not whether I work as hard as miners but anyway

I think the problem here is on the other end of the spectrum. There are people who work hard but aren't paid enough. The miners you mentioned would be a good example consider how poor their working conditions are. (and some of the chronic misery they have to deal with is not something that can be solved with being paid more too.)
Teachers are another good example too. Capitalism has this problem of only let a certain type of career learn more, while some other gets the short end of the stick, despite those career maybe fundemental to the society.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That would imply that reducing poverty is a goal of capitalism, which is not true.

And you imply that the mere existence of poverty means a system is wrong. That may be true if there's an alternative, which there isn't. At least, we haven't found one.

Capitalism's goal is the accumulation of wealth, and that produces poverty by default.

I'd say that the goal of capitalism is to use wealth to produce more wealth. Which, as a side effect, decreases poverty. Yeah, some people get an disproportionately huge slice, but the pie is bigger. Empirically speaking, it's been pretty successful. Certainly more than communism.

And it looks like it's been successful in Magi's world, too. Kou may be in a bad way, but lots of other people have profited from the new opportunities. Including the opportunity to not get enslaved by Kou.

Originally Posted by ChuckE

That's the thing I don't like. Why I should pay more just because I earn more? It's not like I get money from doing nothing. It's not whether I work as hard as miners but anyway

I am living in the country (post soviet) without progressive tax system and people often claim that I need to pay more from my income to have in the end the same amount of money as them. What they do not understand is that the goods won't become cheaper there after that - it's just higher-ups will be able to steal more

The more global problem I believe is not the lack of work. It's more that people lack the work they think they deserve ."No opportunities, no enough salary" and etc. But well when you buy the last orange in the store and people after you are unable to buy oranges at all, it's not that you should pay for that

Of course a lot of people want to make money from the air - and that's what unemployement benefits do -> just by living there you are recieving money and some other bonuses. (though the original idea I presume was to help a person to survive while he is looking for the work - but it failed )

Well, if compassion (or the fear you yourself may one day be on the wrong side of welfare) doesn't move you, consider this: if the system basically means the poor starve, well, they'll look for another system, violently if need be because why not? So ask yourself if you prefer your poor to live from "handouts", or to live from stabbing you and stealing your valuables.

As for why the rich should pay more - well, basically because they're the only ones who can foot the bill.

I also wasn't talking about our world, but a hypothetical future one where all the necessary work is done by a small proportion of the population. In such a world, you would most probably be unemployed, too.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Fairy Water

Then what do you think about the new world he is shaping now?
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21955/703574/14.jpg

Is it better? It feels just like our current world
If the poor could never be rich, what will they become?

It is better. A lot better.

One thing to keep in mind is that page you posted is full of BS. Everyone eating equally? Yes i'm sure that the princes, the generals, and the merchants ate the same food as the slaves and the green shirts. No one different from yourself? Ya unless you look at anyone wearing different color clothes than your own. No Envy? Pretty sure the slaves would be envious of everyone else. And again, keep in mind, the kou empire could only be sustained by going to war and making OTHERS suffer; they REQUIRE the destruction of countless lives to keep their people fed and content. Even in balbadd we saw that many people did NOT like Kou system of government and found the incredible lack of freedom to be stifling(less we forget how the nobdy gave a damn about seeing a child slave dying in the middle of the street). People growing stupid just doing as they are told. I might even think that the kou empire's system might actual stifle progress itself; Necessity is the mother of invention, but the people don't need anything, and the system discourages such individual thought. Heck this is why the kou emprie fell apart, no one ever tried to learn trades or skills of thier own. And really, since the kou empire could only be sustained by war, that means it was doomed to failure if it ever conquered the world since that would end the war that they relied on for so much. Kouen's dream was doomed to failure.

The poor can never be rich in sinbad's world? Nonsense. If Alibaba manages to turn Kou around, then he will be doing it within the bounds of Sinbad's world. In otherwords, the only reason Kou is poor has nothing to do with sinbad's world, but their own failure to adapt to it. Heck Kou probably could have just gotten help from the alliance but they could never ask sinbad for help; Alibaba yes, but not sinbad... You could even say that they chose their PRIDE over economic recovery

This is why the manga's attempts to try and make the kou empire look good is so terrible; their imagination of what the kou empire was like is NOT the reality we see in the manga... frankly if the author was actually aware I would think that Kougyoku was simply being delusional; she THINKS the kou empire is great because she got to live on top and look down from above and was taught to simple ignore the problems... it would actually be quite clever, but it seems the manga is serious about trying to paint the Kou Empire as something good

Originally Posted by Se7enSword

100% Agreed.

What does Sinbad get from crippling Kou?

- More land
- More resources
- More power

It was no coincidence that they crippled Kou that devastatingly, plus this is Sinbad. He's a well-established merchant and he's no political slouch. Have you all forgotten Zepar? He's manipulative too.

Except he didn't. He didn't get any of that. In fact since he stepped down as king he doesn't own anything in the kou empire; its the alliance that actually runs the world now. He got literally nothing from kou's fall. In fact he would get more from kou's prosperity(which is why if it falls he's willing to rebuild it); if Kou was prosperous then he could conduct business and trade there and thus increase his wealth... so he'd actually have more to gain from kou being healthy than Kou falling apart.

[DragonOsman]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

It is better. A lot better.

One thing to keep in mind is that page you posted is full of BS. Everyone eating equally? Yes i'm sure that the princes, the generals, and the merchants ate the same food as the slaves and the green shirts. No one different from yourself? Ya unless you look at anyone wearing different color clothes than your own. No Envy? Pretty sure the slaves would be envious of everyone else. And again, keep in mind, the kou empire could only be sustained by going to war and making OTHERS suffer; they REQUIRE the destruction of countless lives to keep their people fed and content. Even in balbadd we saw that many people did NOT like Kou system of government and found the incredible lack of freedom to be stifling(less we forget how the nobdy gave a damn about seeing a child slave dying in the middle of the street). People growing stupid just doing as they are told. I might even think that the kou empire's system might actual stifle progress itself; Necessity is the mother of invention, but the people don't need anything, and the system discourages such individual thought. Heck this is why the kou emprie fell apart, no one ever tried to learn trades or skills of thier own. And really, since the kou empire could only be sustained by war, that means it was doomed to failure if it ever conquered the world since that would end the war that they relied on for so much. Kouen's dream was doomed to failure.

The poor can never be rich in sinbad's world? Nonsense. If Alibaba manages to turn Kou around, then he will be doing it within the bounds of Sinbad's world. In otherwords, the only reason Kou is poor has nothing to do with sinbad's world, but their own failure to adapt to it. Heck Kou probably could have just gotten help from the alliance but they could never ask sinbad for help; Alibaba yes, but not sinbad... You could even say that they chose their PRIDE over economic recovery

This is why the manga's attempts to try and make the kou empire look good is so terrible; their imagination of what the kou empire was like is NOT the reality we see in the manga... frankly if the author was actually aware I would think that Kougyoku was simply being delusional; she THINKS the kou empire is great because she got to live on top and look down from above and was taught to simple ignore the problems... it would actually be quite clever, but it seems the manga is serious about trying to paint the Kou Empire as something good



Except he didn't. He didn't get any of that. In fact since he stepped down as king he doesn't own anything in the kou empire; its the alliance that actually runs the world now. He got literally nothing from kou's fall. In fact he would get more from kou's prosperity(which is why if it falls he's willing to rebuild it); if Kou was prosperous then he could conduct business and trade there and thus increase his wealth... so he'd actually have more to gain from kou being healthy than Kou falling apart.

Exactly. I completely agree here (except I'm not sure about exactly what it is that Ohtaka is trying to show us . . . it's her manga, and I think she knows that Kou wasn't all good - or at least I hope so).

And again, what happened to Kou was just an undesired side-effect of Sinbad's system. It wasn't intentional on Sinbad's part. The Kou Empire just failed to adapt to the changes because they were already too used to wars.

Also, yeah, it was stated in the manga that Sinbad had already stepped down from the throne. He isn't the High King of the Seven Seas anymore, he's just part of the International Alliance's main committee now (whatever it's called).

[Sixth]

Kou haters are hilarious. Do you guys magically forgot that the one who ruled Kou was not longer in charge. Sinbad knows that. Alibaba knows that and in fact everyone knows that. Hakuryuu decided to change Kou by allying himself with Sinbad, but failed. Same goes to Kougyoku. Do you know why both of them failed so HARD? Because they were inexperience brats. It is clearly that reforming the entire country was too much for both of the young rulers. Not to mention, the smartest man in Kou just go exiled by Sinbad and leaving a bunch of incompetent fools running in the dying country.

Sinbad knows all of this but what he do? He "pretends" to help them by loaning them money with time limit despite knowing well that both of the young rulers will fail no matter what. He is simply invading and conquer the Kou softly. What Sinbad did is just like what a loan shark will do in my country. A simple, effective yet ruthless way to get something without bloodshed. Luckily Alibaba saw through all the BS and decided to do something about it.

So, please don't say it was Kou's fault for not able to cope with the changes when they don't even have a competent ruler remained and time is not at their side. Other countries were able to adapt because their old, wise and experience rulers were still in charge when Sinbad was implementing the changes. If Sinbad was sincere in helping in reforming Kou, it would be done in no time, but he decided not to do so.

Also, I don't understand some of you guys keep bringing out the issue of communism about Kou when it is already a past tense. Present Kou =/= Old Kou. Let's it go.

Maybe you guys can ridicule or laugh at the Kou for being a failure to adapt if Kouen is still the one who ruling Kou.....but too bad, it is not in this case.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by noobita

Sinbad knows all of this but what he do? He "pretends" to help them by loaning them money with time limit despite knowing well that both of the young rulers will fail no matter what.

So what should Sinbad have done then? Give them money for free? He's running a business, not a charity.

He is simply invading and conquer the Kou softly. What Sinbad did is just like what a loan shark will do in my country. A simple, effective yet ruthless way to get something without bloodshed. Luckily Alibaba saw through all the BS and decided to do something about it.

If his intention was to conquer Kou, he could have just ignored Alibaba's begging and absorbed the country into the IA in a month.

So, please don't say it was Kou's fault for not able to cope with the changes when they don't even have a competent ruler remained and time is not at their side. Other countries were able to adapt because their old, wise and experience rulers were still in charge when Sinbad was implementing the changes.

Kou not being able to admit had less to do with Hakuryuu and Kougyoku, and more to do with Kouen's flawed world view. The place was doomed no matter who was there.

If Sinbad was sincere in helping in reforming Kou, it would be done in no time, but he decided not to do so.

You really think Kougyoku was going to accept that much help from Sinbad?

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by noobita

Kou haters are hilarious. Do you guys magically forgot that the one who ruled Kou was not longer in charge. Sinbad knows that. Alibaba knows that and in fact everyone knows that. Hakuryuu decided to change Kou by allying himself with Sinbad, but failed. Same goes to Kougyoku. Do you know why both of them failed so HARD? Because they were inexperience brats. It is clearly that reforming the entire country was too much for both of the young rulers. Not to mention, the smartest man in Kou just go exiled by Sinbad and leaving a bunch of incompetent fools running in the dying country.

Sinbad knows all of this but what he do? He "pretends" to help them by loaning them money with time limit despite knowing well that both of the young rulers will fail no matter what. He is simply invading and conquer the Kou softly. What Sinbad did is just like what a loan shark will do in my country. A simple, effective yet ruthless way to get something without bloodshed. Luckily Alibaba saw through all the BS and decided to do something about it.

So, please don't say it was Kou's fault for not able to cope with the changes when they don't even have a competent ruler remained and time is not at their side. Other countries were able to adapt because their old, wise and experience rulers were still in charge when Sinbad was implementing the changes. If Sinbad was sincere in helping in reforming Kou, it would be done in no time, but he decided not to do so.

Also, I don't understand some of you guys keep bringing out the issue of communism about Kou when it is already a past tense. Present Kou =/= Old Kou. Let's it go.

Maybe you guys can ridicule or laugh at the Kou for being a failure to adapt if Kouen is still the one who ruling Kou.....but too bad, it is not in this case.

You are missing some point here, let's say if Sinbad want to reform Kou, and Kougyoku accept, how much money Sinbad need to spend for that reformation? how long does that reformation is going to take ?

Remember, the money belong to entire alliance, not Sinbad personal money, You thinks people can pull off enough money to reform an entire country just because he feel like ???

If Sinbad goal was to conquer Kou, leaving Alibaba aside, he could always absorbed Kou the moments Hakuryuu abdicated the throne. Kougyouku wouldn't have enough authority when she just ascend the throne and Sinbad could easily give some levarage to Kou in exchange for Kou's land become part of alliance.