2010-04-23, 18:00 | Link #8881 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-04-23, 18:02 | Link #8883 | ||
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Sorry I have nothing to say for these EP6 things, but I'll just continue this a little.
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Well I think Jessica came to the servants instead of Kanon and claimed Rosa to have tried to kill them. Then they devised a lie about Kanon and helped Jessica operate in some way. Quote:
EDIT: Too slow... Yeah that makes sense what you say LyricalAura, guess I didn't think about it too much when all the answers were available |
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2010-04-23, 18:05 | Link #8884 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Not only because I want at least some element of surprise beside the confirmation of my theories being correct, but also because the current shkanon theories aren't totally satisfactory (imho). It's more of a wish than anything else, it's a fact that a lot of people do not like any of the shkanon interpretations being explained so far. Regardless of my personal opinion, Ryukishi shouldn't let half of the fanbase rage. That's why Ryukishi's got to have a very good explanation
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2010-04-23, 18:06 | Link #8885 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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So it could be like this: Beato tricked Erika into thinking she was making a magic-world move when she was actually making a real-world move. |
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2010-04-23, 18:08 | Link #8886 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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A unique approach to mystery writing is available to an author of a serialised mystery text that comes out in instalments if he is able to monitor the audience response and theorising. This approach consists of creating a text in which a convoluted puzzle is presented, without thinking of a certain 'correct' answer beforehand, and large sections of text are presented as narration unreliable in one way or another without giving a clear way to determine which narration is reliable and which isn't. By adjusting further instalments to audience response, so that they deny theories that do not make the author look clever and reinforce ones that do, the author is able to outsource the process of puzzling the readers to readers themselves. Which is actually, in a sense, the ultimate form of reader trolling if it gets out that the author did anything of the sort.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-23 at 18:10. Reason: argh, grammar |
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2010-04-23, 18:08 | Link #8887 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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And I'll say it again I want a damn Sayo sprite. If Kanon and Shannon are the same person I want a sprite of that individual person who disguises as them. I also want to know what hints ( in 1986) point to the disguise. Because I see no one who is suspicious of it.
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2010-04-23, 18:12 | Link #8888 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Just some words that no one is going to listen to, but that I think need to be said.
While some of the arguments against Shkanon that have been mentioned in the last few pages have merit, the sad fact is that many of them do not. These either refer to only specific versions of Shkanon which even many Shkanon fans (and Ryuukishi) would call ridiculous, ignore sets of hints given throughout the games, or are logically unsound. By this point, we can be fairly sure, though not completely, that Shkanon is at least a part of the solution to Umineko. In that case, there's not much point in trying to denounce the theory itself. If you don't like it, you can judge Ryuukishi however you want and decide whether you want to continue following the series. However, I think that after spending so much time on this game, we should all give Ryuukishi the benefit of the doubt. If you actually read through the games and certain theories under the assumption that Shkanon might be true, you'll find that it does work better than a lot of you think it does. If you start out by assuming that Shkanon is stupid, and look for ways that it might be more stupid, you'll have zero chance at figuring out why it works. In other words, without love, it cannot be seen. You've spent this long on the series, so why not spend a little more? See if you can find evidence supporting Shkanon, instead of trying to build an argument against it. Just think of it as a mind game. If you still can't support Shkanon after doing that, then you have good reason to be disappointed with the series. But give it some time.
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2010-04-23, 18:12 | Link #8889 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-04-23, 18:13 | Link #8890 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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In episode 7, Ryukishi said the game will not progress chronologically like the other games. That could mean that the events will simply be shown out of order or we'll get flashbacks and flashfowards (hopefully with new tachi-e for everyone). Maybe he meant something else but it's definitely made me curious.
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2010-04-23, 18:19 | Link #8892 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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That sounds quite interesting, maybe it's like collection of kakera like in the epitaph-solving scene in EP5, with extra info. After all it was hinted of Bern being the game master in EP7 right? This might actually lead us to read through some episode(s) from another person's perspective. Maybe not yet the culprit. But the point of view of for example Rudolf/Kyrie/Rosa would be interesting. We might even get some kind of character selection :3
As this is going more for the romance, it'll be a dating sim. Well about the debate of multiple truths, is it possible Ryukishi might be doing multiple endings, in general VN-style? With combining clues like what was in Matsuribayashi-hen (was there? I just read it somewhere). |
2010-04-23, 18:22 | Link #8893 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I'm just angry because people are fussing over an interview thinking it's been confirmed prematurely, when the most any of us have is an ATLAS translation of episode 6, which isn't actually the best thing to help us find our own answer. There may be some deeper meaning in What Zepar in Furfur say. I've really been trying to find hints for the disguise part of Shkanon too. I've been looking and looking, but I just can't find it. This makes me frustrated because I think this is an important part of Kanon's character if he is a disguise, and the only evidence I seem to see for a disguise is that there is nothing denying it's possible, which is the same as a Devil's proof. And I have read Chronotrigs theory.
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2010-04-23, 18:25 | Link #8894 |
Radiant as the sun;
Graphic Designer
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I think Shkanon can be accepted. It's definitely possible, there have been hints for it, it's hard to deny at moments even with strong anti-shkanon theorists. The thing is, some versions of Shkanon are pretty ridiculous, and some people just don't agree to some of them, or see how it's possible. The whole basis for Shkanon is one thing, but all the different possible versions of it is another, and I think that's what a lot of people have an issue with.
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2010-04-23, 18:28 | Link #8895 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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However, Kanon has always been Kanon. From the first time Jessica saw him until the day of his death, "he" has always been in the same disguise. So any problems with the disguise would have been present when they first met, and still present at the end. If anything, those problems would shrink in number as time went on and Kanon got more used to it. So it would actually make less sense if someone were to suddenly discover something in 1986. Most likely, if they were to find something a bit suspicious, they would have noticed it years ago and dismissed it by the time of the murders.
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2010-04-23, 18:29 | Link #8896 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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how do you take this key and use it to explain stuff from previous episodes?
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2010-04-23, 18:35 | Link #8897 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I think it's this statement I've referred to many times. For the chain to be set, there must be someone hiding on the inside. Ryukishi goes to great lengths to show us there is no possible way to escape that room without someone setting the chain from the inside. It's described in that theory, too, with Kanon being on the inside. This is very relevant to the other closed room murders, which is why I think it's what he meant. |
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2010-04-23, 18:38 | Link #8898 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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HOWEVER. How can Kanon be seen as a person if he was always a disguise? Even born that way? How can he be put into somebody's mental game board if he didn't previously exist as a person? There is no reason to disguise as Kanon (hide the fact that he doesn't exist) if he wasn't an individual person before Oct 4th 1986. It's that simple. Why make a disguise for a person people know if he doesn't exist and it is not possible to know him?
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2010-04-23, 18:41 | Link #8899 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You don't even have to reason about it, that's what Beatrice herself said! and people hiding inside the rooms has been denied in several cases
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2010-04-23, 18:42 | Link #8900 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Do you consider Battler's hidden cabinet in episode 2 to be a hidden passage? I thought it was interesting that that theory he came up with is not specifically denied by Knox's third and it wasn't really denied for that room either I don't think.
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