[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

this kind of logic doesn't work for me.

backtrack a little and think about all the assumptions you had to make in order to accept Kinzo is already dead at the time of EP3.

To be honest, I suspected it to be possible, but using just ep3 I was not thoroughly convinced of it. It was only when the idea came up in ep4 that I accepted the possibility it was credible.

The difference is, there was lots of suspect information about Kinzo's health, he never appeared, and if he turned up dead he was always burned. About the only suggestion that Kanon might be someone else is his missing body, except in several episodes it's not missing (just not observed by Battler). Certainly, there hasn't been excessive information suggesting Shkanon, merely evidence by lack of contradiction.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Except Natsuhi's room. Shannon is definitely dead Battler saw it. He touched her head and saw blood poor out on to floor. The only murderers you have there are Gohda and George. I chose the latter.

Shannontrice killed Gohda! Then, George and Shannontrice come into conflict, and she kills him as well! Shannon takes back over and kills herself in horror!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

To be honest, I suspected it to be possible, but using just ep3 I was not thoroughly convinced of it. It was only when the idea came up in ep4 that I accepted the possibility it was credible.

The difference is, there was lots of suspect information about Kinzo's health, he never appeared, and if he turned up dead he was always burned. About the only suggestion that Kanon might be someone else is his missing body, except in several episodes it's not missing (just not observed by Battler). Certainly, there hasn't been excessive information suggesting Shkanon, merely evidence by lack of contradiction.

That was true until EP6.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

Shannontrice killed Gohda! Then, George and Shannontrice come into conflict, and she kills him as well! Shannon takes back over and kills herself in horror!

I work in Reverse. Gohda was revolted at George and Shannon killing Kumasawa and Nanjo. Gohda confronted George during the scuffle George kicked Shannon hitting her head hard on a corner of some kind of shelf. George stabbed Gohda in the heart with a letter opener. All George has to do is fake a stab wound in the stomach and the TIPS say that's not even a fatal spot.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That was true until EP6.

Whereupon it was beaten so firmly over the head without actually being confirmed that I immediately recognized it as a troll.

Kinzo's death was actually confirmed in ep4. If it hadn't been, I would suspect it but still not be sure of it.

EDIT: Also, Kinzo already being dead is good writing if the explanation makes sense, which it does. Shkanon is patently and inherently absurd and nothing can make it not be.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I work in Reverse. Gohda was revolted at George and Shannon killing Kumasawa and Nanjo. Gohda confronted George during the scuffle George kicked Shannon hitting her head hard on a corner of some kind of shelf. George stabbed Gohda in the heart with a letter opener. All George has to do is fake a stab wound in the stomach and that's not even a fatal spot.

I just don't see George aiding "Beatrice." I mean, I'm sure he would if he was asked to by her, but I don't think Shannon's the murderous type and would try to tell George to make her STOP KILLING if she got any sort of free moment. And unless "Beatrice" has been deluding George for some time, I don't see him being suddenly swayed to murder his whole family. As we saw in Episode 4, his "Imma kill everyone" was just him deciding to fight Gaap. And in Ep. 6, the stakes are decidedly higher.

And anyway, this way it allows the culprit of Ep. 2 to be entirely one person and a bomb.

But that's definitely valid, and I can see how that works just as well. Either way, Natsuhi's room isn't hard at all.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

I just don't see George aiding "Beatrice." I mean, I'm sure he would if he was asked to by her, but I don't think Shannon's the murderous type and would try to tell George to make her STOP KILLING if she got any sort of free moment.

After the reds about her motive in episode 5 I beleive Beatrice is a pawn not the mastermind. He's not really helping Beatrice in that case.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

After the reds about her motive in episode 5 I beleive Beatrice is a pawn not the mastermind. He's not really helping Beatrice in that case.

I suppose that's true. But either way, she's certainly at least a few people, even though just to show Battler her sadness at what he did to her, and to get him to remember.

[SeagullCrazy]

Wow, this thread got a ton of pages in a short amount of time. Its taken me a while to read all of it and get caught up.

Well, here I go:

Assuming Shkanon is true, then the only explanation for EP1's second twilight is one which involves doubting Kanon's viewpoint. Normally, you wouldn't think doubting a subjective viewpoint is a problem. However, nothing magical (that cannot be explained with logic) happens during the entire scene. I'm suggesting that there is no reason to doubt what Kanon did shortly before the second twilight. And because there is no reason to doubt Kanon, there is no reason to believe in Shkanon.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Wow, this thread got a ton of pages in a short amount of time. Its taken me a while to read all of it and get caught up.

Well, here I go:

Assuming Shkanon is true, then the only explanation for EP1's second twilight is one which involves doubting Kanon's viewpoint. Normally, you wouldn't think doubting a subjective viewpoint is a problem. However, nothing magical (that cannot be explained with logic) happens during the entire scene. I'm suggesting that there is no reason to doubt what Kanon did shortly before the second twilight. And because there is no reason to doubt Kanon, there is no reason to believe in Shkanon.

I'd say that's not a fair point.

Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead at the start of all games and apart from the existence of Kinzo, nothing magical happens during his interactions with Natsuhi. At the time of Episode One, there were no facts that stated Kinzo couldn't have had these conversations. Until Shkanon is proved one way or another, it's perfectly fair for that scene to be treated in the same way as Natsuhi's talks with "Kinzo." It's a good thing to look at, but that in and of itself doesn't deny Shkanon, just isn't a scene with evidence one way or another.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

I'd say that's not a fair point.

Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead at the start of all games and apart from the existence of Kinzo, nothing magical happens during his interactions with Natsuhi At the time of Episode One, there were no facts that stated Kinzo couldn't have had these conversations. Until Shkanon is proved one way or another, it's perfectly fair for that scene to be treated in the same way as Natsuhi's talks with "Kinzo."

No he's talking about the closed room at the second twilight. Nothing magical or deceiving happens in that scene. Genji sees a letter, Kanon get the wire cutters from the storehouse and removes the chain where he finds them dead.

There is no reason to doubt that Kanon cut the chain. However if Shkanon is not true you could doubt that Kanon killed them after removing the chain. It's possible for him to be innocent if Shannon is the murderer.

Nothing fantastical or anything about Kinzo there.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

No he's talking about the closed room at the second twilight. Nothing magical or deceiving happens in that scene. Genji sees a letter, Kanon get the wire cutters from the storehouse and removes the chain where he finds them dead.

There is no reason to doubt that Kanon cut the chain. However if Shkanon is not true you could doubt that Kanon killed them after removing the chain. It's possible for him to be innocent if Shannon is the murderer.

Nothing fantastical or anything about Kinzo there.

My point was that "It doesn't seem like a magic scene until we see something that's contradictory proven in red."

(I guess I should just shy away from devil's advocating since I'm obviously not good at it, heh)

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

There is no reason to doubt that Kanon cut the chain. However if Shkanon is not true you could doubt that Kanon killed them after removing the chain. It's possible for him to be innocent if Shannon is the murderer.

There's a small problem even if Kanon kills them after cutting the chain. If we decide to trust the scenes leading up to the discovery, then that means his actions were real. Why would he act that way if he was intent on killing them? And that also makes Kumasawa an accomplice, or at least suspicious. Assuming she is innocent, she has no reason to be afraid of Kanon when everyone gathers around the room. She could have told them all Kanon killed them, but she didn't. This makes sense if she truly believed Kanon didn't commit the murders.

This also applies to Shkanon.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

apart from the existence of Kinzo, nothing magical happens during his interactions with Natsuhi.

There may not have been anything "magical", but there were logical inconsistencies. Kinzo praising Natsuhi is very out of character for him, and therefore something to doubt.

[Laserworm]

I have a huge question regarding the logic error in ep6 and shakannon.

This piece of red was used. (Crapy ATLAS so it might be wrong...)

Only Kanon entered the guest room when Battler was rescued.

If Shakannon were true wouldn't that mean that Shannon also entered the room?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Laserworm

I have a huge question regarding the logic error in ep6 and shakannon.

This piece of red was used. (Crapy ATLAS so it might be wrong...)

Only Kanon entered the guest room when Battler was rescued.

If Shakannon were true wouldn't that mean that Shannon also entered the room?

Can you post the original Japanese?

EDIT:This is the red on the wiki.

At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon.

But after that: I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occurred, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.
I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.

[Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

this seems contradictory, but it might not be.

This one I found interesting though:

Ladies and gentlemen, we humbly offer to state the following. Please know that neither of the seals on the cousins' room and neighboring room doors is broken.

Doesn't this leave it open for the seals to be on completely different rooms?

[Laserworm]

Can you post the original Japanese?

Yeah, sure.

Erika "「復唱要求。“戦人救出時、客室に入ったのは嘉音のみである”。」

Beato "「認めようぞ。戦人救出時、客室に入ったのは嘉音のみである。 そういう話のつもりだが…？」


Sorry; it took a while to get to that point in the chapter again.. it being at the end of it.

[Renall]

I believe the idea is that Kanon and Shannon are the same bodies so any text about one apply to the body of the other. I guess.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Renall

I believe the idea is that Kanon and Shannon are the same bodies so any text about one apply to the body of the other. I guess.

Or that "Kanon" was in control at the time so it was "Kanon" who entered, I believe.

[Renall]

That shouldn't matter, should it? Under Shkanon, there only ever was one body anyway, right?

[Judoh]

What I was pointing out with those reds I found in the wiki was that the first one says only Kanon entered the room, but after that someone says Erika, Kanon, and Battler are the only people who entered and exited the room.