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[Marcus H.]

Flames detected.

Everyone, move your silly dialogue elsewhere and save the mods the time to move your posts.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Flames detected.

Everyone, move your silly dialogue elsewhere and save the mods the time to move your posts.

I'll be done after this :

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be implying that anyone who believes in God(s) falls into this type of behavior.

Isn't that true for those who take their religion too seriously? To build humungous places of worship everywhere consolidating their worshippers into a hegemony of power?

If you have read the Bible, there is one part in the old testament where one of the characters (Daniel) would pray in despite the Persians publishing a decree prohibiting him from doing so. Under Dan 6:10 :

Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

He did this without going to some highty tighty place, so why the heck do we have to waste precious land, which is continuously lost to rising sea levels to build some prestigious building as a place of worship? And to think of it, they keep popping up constantly - the finances used for building new places of worship can be used to help others in need. Under Ezekiel 11:16

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

That entity said "little sanctuary", not "big fat places". Keeping accountancy and finances prudent is supposedly a teaching of that guy up there, no?

It is an excess by megachurch organisations. If that big entity up there wanted to put everyone under his thumb and kowtow to him, he would have allowed the Tower of Babel to be built in the first place.

P.S I consider myself neutral when it comes to religion, however I do follow Gandhi's two ideals, namely compassion and the Golden Rule. I don't believe in nonviolence - sometimes people deserve to have a few punches to knock logic into their heads.

[FatPianoBoy]

I still don't see how that has anything at all to do with what Dr. Hawking said. I'm breaking my neck trying to make the leap from 'God didn't create anything because the universe is capable of creating itself' to 'all religious people are wasting precious space with large buildings, which is also against the teachings of the Bible.' Unless you can tie this together somehow, we probably shouldn't hijack this thread.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

I still don't see how that has anything at all to do with what Dr. Hawking said. I'm breaking my neck trying to make the leap from 'God didn't create anything because the universe is capable of creating itself' to 'all religious people are wasting precious space with large buildings, which is also against the teachings of the Bible.' Unless you can tie this together somehow, we probably shouldn't hijack this thread.

If that is what you actually mean, I was simply asking a rhetoric of why did he even bother with people like that to write a treatise on this.

He is stating the obvious with regards to the title. The part of useless architecture is a pun on the systematic construction of the universe through energy-mass conversion versus the "building of peoples" from Eden to hell - one is built on scientific principles and logic, the other is built on fantasy and fear.

Besides, being the one that posted the article, I have the right to make a commentary. Focus on the article, not the title when you are reading the commentary - if you don't get the comment ask directly, don't beat around the bush.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I was simply asking a rhetoric of why did he even bother with people like that to write a treatise on this.

So you're saying that he shouldn't bother addressing the beliefs of people who are fanatical and unreasonable?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

So you're saying that he shouldn't bother addressing the beliefs of people who are fanatical and unreasonable?

I take it that you have not read any of his works.

His work this time is in comparison to the religious idea of an entity creating everything, not simply an informative journalisation. It is a hard argumentative writeout, in every way which can be easily debunked with ad hominem, accusations of blasphemy or demonisation from the fanatical and unreasonable, not an offering of an alternative view.

He's going to attract himself so much trouble, and if bad enough, he might be the next Rushdie. There isn't any point offering a view of science to a close-minded hardcore religious ass in the first place, in fact, it is an invitation to a fat lot of war.

Still, it'd be an interesting read. Though the title needs to be changed or it might never get published in my country.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I take it that you have not read any of his works.

His work this time is in comparison to the religious idea of an entity creating everything, not simply an informative journalisation. It is a hard argumentative writeout, in every way which can be easily debunked with ad hominem, accusations of blasphemy or demonisation from the fanatical and unreasonable, not an offering of an alternative view.

He's going to attract himself so much trouble, and if bad enough, he might be the next Rushdie. There isn't any point offering a view of science to a close-minded hardcore religious ass in the first place, in fact, it is an invitation to a fat lot of war.

Still, it'd be an interesting read. Though the title needs to be changed or it might never get published in my country.

I found and bought Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion just about a month ago at Kinokuniya. I hardly think Hawking's new book will face much of an issue here.

Besides, it may not change a faithhead's POV.....but, it will serve as useful reading for the atheists and the undecided. And frankly, we need as many writings on the atheist viewpoint as we can get, if only so that the nonbelievers don't get silenced under the hegemony of the religious POV.

So bring it on, I say.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I found and bought Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion just about a month ago at Kinokuniya. I hardly think Hawking's new book will face much of an issue here.

I tried to find The Satanic Verses a number of years back (2002 or 2003, can't remember when) after reading about Khomieni's fat war against it. A manager at a bookstore (can't remember what is the name, it is somewhere in Orchard) told me that it was banned here.

Hawking wrote a few books that included the word "God" in it because he refused to use the politically correct term "mythical omnipotent-omnipresent-omniscient supreme entity". He had iterated in an interview before that his usage of "God" is metaphorical, however I suspect that he is deistic with regards to the science-religion topic.

I own a copy of his "On The Shoulders of Giants" since it came out, and it's an interesting read. However, the book seems to be pitting arguments of science against religion, which has always been a stalemate which religion will triumph because "primitive life is very common and intelligent life is rare" - not many want to bother about the intricacies of science and would rather defer to the cop-outs of religion.

The title of the book might be a jab at the "Intelligent Design" though. If he could marry the teachings of religion (in Gandhi's terms of compassion, nonviolence and Golden Rule) to the logic of science (scientific method) in the "Protoss-ian" way, that would truly be epic.

Besides, it may not change a faithhead's POV.....but, it will serve as useful reading for the atheists and the undecided. And frankly, we need as many writings on the atheist viewpoint as we can get, if only so that the nonbelievers don't get silenced under the hegemony of the religious POV.

So bring it on, I say.

If the kids here bother to even read anyway. Have you been to a megachurch gathering like CH? The stuff and books they recommend are promotional investments which will reap some royalty to the church, it is like a giant Adam Khoo / Miriam Macwilliams seminar minus the usefulness of the material.

It is a marketing thing. Somebody needs to bring him here to give a book talk to the nerds at the top schools - there are some who are hardcore enough to go through Kepler's entire tables to verify the authencity of his calculations; otherwise it would just be another book on the bookshelf of the Popular bookstore waiting to be sent back to the publisher.

[flying ^]

In monetary terms, who here thinks building a public school like this is just over-the-top and obscene?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by flying ^

In monetary terms, who here thinks building a public school like this is just over-the-top and obscene?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

Dear Lord...

I particularly appreciated these parts:

Mr. Rubin admits that the Roybal Center project was "a tremendous screw-up" that "should have been studied closer beforehand." The project was abandoned for several years, only to be recommenced when community activists demanded that the school be built at whatever cost necessary in order to show respect for the neighborhood's Latino children, many of whom were attending an overcrowded Belmont High School.

The Roybal center now ranks in the bottom third of schools with similar demographics on state tests, while Belmont High ranks in the top third. But even though many Roybal kids can't read or do math, at least they have a dance studio with cushioned maple floors and a kitchen with a restaurant-quality pizza oven.

Expect more such over-the-top and inefficient building projects in the future. Los Angeles voters have approved over $20 billion of bonds since 1997 and state voters have chipped in another $4.4 billion of matching funds. Roughly a third of the cost of the Kennedy complex will be shouldered by state taxpayers.

The district's building spree has sparked outrage from charter schools, not least because they are getting only a tiny piece of the bond pie. California Charter School Association President Jed Wallace says a charter school can be built at a seventh of the cost of the Kennedy complex and a quarter of most L.A. schools. For example, the nonprofit Green Dot built seven charters in the area—to serve about 4,300 mainly low-income students—for less than $85 million in total. These schools also have a collective graduation rate that's nearly twice as high as that of the Los Angeles Unified School District, which Education Week magazine pegs at 40%.

So typical...

In the meanwhile, in South Korea, Academy City is underway.

Here on Jeju Island, famous for its tangerine groves, pearly beaches and honeymoon resorts, South Korea is conducting a bold educational experiment, one intended to bolster opportunity at home and attract investment from abroad.

By 2015, if all goes according to plan, 12 prestigious Western schools will have opened branch campuses in a government-financed, 940-acre Jeju Global Education City, a self-contained community within Seogwipo, where everyone — students, teachers, administrators, doctors, store clerks — will speak only English. The first school, North London Collegiate, broke ground for its campus this month.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I tried to find The Satanic Verses a number of years back (2002 or 2003, can't remember when) after reading about Khomieni's fat war against it. A manager at a bookstore (can't remember what is the name, it is somewhere in Orchard) told me that it was banned here.

Well, it was banned at a time when the Gahmen was a lot more touchy about stuff, and I think they just haven't bothered to reevaluate it since. Besides, Hawking's new book will have about the same level of exposure as Dawkin's; it certainly won't be a super high profile title like The Satanic Verses, or hell, even The Da Vinci Code.

Hawking wrote a few books that included the word "God" in it because he refused to use the politically correct term "mythical omnipotent-omnipresent-omniscient supreme entity". He had iterated in an interview before that his usage of "God" is metaphorical, however I suspect that he is deistic with regards to the science-religion topic.

More likely than not, he's referring to the Einsteinian God whenever he uses the term. And frankly, you know how most people are with multiple syllables.

I own a copy of his "On The Shoulders of Giants" since it came out, and it's an interesting read. However, the book seems to be pitting arguments of science against religion, which has always been a stalemate which religion will triumph because "primitive life is very common and intelligent life is rare" - not many want to bother about the intricacies of science and would rather defer to the cop-outs of religion.

Not really as much of a stalemate as it may seem; you just need to start off with the anthropic principle if you ever encounter that argument. And if they try to deny or reject that argument out of hand, well....that's when you make like me and start throwing the Book of Fallacies at them.

If the kids here bother to even read anyway. Have you been to a megachurch gathering like CH? The stuff and books they recommend are promotional investments which will reap some royalty to the church, it is like a giant Adam Khoo / Miriam Macwilliams seminar minus the usefulness of the material.

I have. Twice, in fact. I consider that occasion as a key point in my life which eventually brought me to the atheistic viewpoint I hold today. Seriously, that stuff they do there is creepy.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Well, it was banned at a time when the Gahmen was a lot more touchy about stuff, and I think they just haven't bothered to reevaluate it since. Besides, Hawking's new book will have about the same level of exposure as Dawkin's; it certainly won't be a super high profile title like The Satanic Verses, or hell, even The Da Vinci Code.

I am thinking of bringing myself down to a few bookstores to hunt for the book next week. Wish me luck that I don't get offered indefinite free meals and lodging by the ISD.

Not really as much of a stalemate as it may seem; you just need to start off with the anthropic principle if you ever encounter that argument. And if they try to deny or reject that argument out of hand, well....that's when you make like me and start throwing the Book of Fallacies at them.

Personally, I believe that the Anthropic Principle is oversimplifying science for the masses. Though it is not an attempt at absolution like ID, bringing everything down to the bare minimum in that "every observation of the universe must fit into the conscious observation of man" is demeaning to the scientific method and the idea of logic behind hypothesis and thesis themselves.

The idea of a "fine-tuned universe", in some individual elements by itself, can be a form of selective thought. It doesn't mean that if something cannot be understood, it is impossible for it to happen. Take light for example : Max Planck and many others have proven that it exist both in wave and particle form - it is just too small to be effectively quantised and to have Newton's conventional laws of motion applied to it. Also, solid seem to be the only phase for water to have a lower density than ice, in supersolids like Bose-Einstein Condensates, it supposedly reverts to the original principle of being heavier than water.

As for the Book of Fallacies, I am not that good at relating to such things in argument. The only way I win all my arguments is with heavy facts and hammering.

I have. Twice, in fact. I consider that occasion as a key point in my life which eventually brought me to the atheistic viewpoint I hold today. Seriously, that stuff they do there is creepy.

I used to go there to do voyeuring. Plenty of pretty girls there. Mmmmmmm......and all they need is flagellation and a mass orgy to make it complete. Someone needs to recommend to them Seikon No Qwaser.

I disagree with one of the preachers' stand on gays as "misguided flock" though. They are a natural occurence of platonic love between two males, disgusting as it may seem; there is already a huge mention of yaoi/boys' love in the Bible itself - between Jonathan, the son of King Saul and David, the third king of Israel.

If "God" is female, she must be a fujoshi. Joking.

Originally Posted by JMvS

In the meanwhile, in South Korea, Academy City is underway.

Since when are the South Koreans interested into the research of psychic children who can electromagnetically accelerate coins from their fingers, teleport, redirect the approach vectors of objects and various other human phenomena?

Oh right. North Korea.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by flying ^

In monetary terms, who here thinks building a public school like this is just over-the-top and obscene?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

Originally Posted by JMvS

Dear Lord...

I particularly appreciated these parts:



So typical...

you guys do realize that the wsj is own by Rupert Murdoch and is about as fair and balance as Fox News.

i am not saying the building project itself isn't a debacle but that article is about as slanted as you can get.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Since when are the South Koreans interested into the research of psychic children who can electromagnetically accelerate coins from their fingers, teleport, redirect the approach vectors of objects and various other human phenomena?

Oh right. North Korea.

Well, I was more thinking about the other aspect of it: the creation of a self contained community, called Global Education City.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

you guys do realize that the wsj is own by Rupert Murdoch and is about as fair and balance as Fox News.

i am not saying the building project itself isn't a debacle but that article is about as slanted as you can get.

I commented it as typical simply because it is! As this is a widespread phenomenon in many countries were "pedagogues" have taken control of public education.

I feel sick each time I see all those luxurious public school facilities here in Switzerland and in neighboring France, producing such pitiable results, that several public school teacher I know made huge sacrifices to enroll their kids in private, at least for elementary, out of concern that they'd be illiterate otherwise.

As many concerned parents, mine made huge sacrifice to enroll us in a private school, which had relatively spartan facilities, and where we effectively received an education. While in the meantime the administration was wasting our taxes, producing more and more analphabets, and spending more per student than what my parent paid from their own pocket, in dispendious facilities, absurdly wide cursus choice, and pedagogical experiments (at one point, in several Canton (State), we even uncovered a "self development program", drawn from Scientology, and where grade schoolers were being brainwashed into sharing their concerns only within the workgroup, and keeping it absolutely secret from their parents).

Actually, after comparing the diverse education systems existing in my country, a paradox emerged: the more public education spends, the worst the results are. Here, Canton, the States equivalents, have their own independent education systems, which can be extremely different from each another (for starter, 3 official languages as different as German, French and Italian, some Cantons even being multilingual).

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by JMvS

Well, I was more thinking about the other aspect of it: the creation of a self contained community, called Global Education City.



I commented it as typical simply because it is! As this is a widespread phenomenon in many countries were "pedagogues" have taken control of public education.

I feel sick each time I see all those luxurious public school facilities here in Switzerland and in neighboring France, producing such pitiable results, that several public school teacher I know made huge sacrifices to enroll their kids in private, at least for elementary, out of concern that they'd be illiterate otherwise.

As many concerned parents, mine made huge sacrifice to enroll us in a private school, which had relatively spartan facilities, and where we effectively received an education. While in the meantime the administration was wasting our taxes, producing more and more analphabets, and spending more per student than what my parent paid from their own pocket, in dispendious facilities, absurdly wide cursus choice, and pedagogical experiments (at one point, in several Canton (State), we even uncovered a "self development program", drawn from Scientology, and where grade schoolers were being brainwashed into sharing their concerns only within the workgroup, and keeping it absolutely secret from their parents).

Actually, after comparing the diverse education systems existing in my country, a paradox emerged: the more public education spends, the worst the results are. Here, Canton, the States equivalents, have their own independent education systems, which can be extremely different from each another (for starter, 3 official languages as different as German, French and Italian, some Cantons even being multilingual).

That's because if the schools are getting a lot of funding, ie, job security for the teachers, then they have no incentives to actually tell well. Hence why private schools and charter schools where teachers might be paid and evaluated based on their performance do much better, even with far worse facilities.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

That's because if the schools are getting a lot of funding, ie, job security for the teachers, then they have no incentives to actually tell well. Hence why private schools and charter schools where teachers might be paid and evaluated based on their performance do much better, even with far worse facilities.

I think it is more of a set rules thing. Over here, the teachers are supposed to teach according to a set of guidelines (known as the Teachers' Handbook). They function almost the same as any other government worker.

Being a teacher here is hell though. 30 topics of Physics in a span of two years, plus a lab lesson once per week, requirement to come back during school holidays to mark exam papers, go through an entire procedure set to take papers home to mark, and obliged to have their leave burned (though reimbursed as monetary payment) in the year.

It takes a passion to teach in order to become a teacher here. I am glad my high school's Physics department is made up of nerds who love the things they are teaching the students.

[Anh_Minh]

Or because private schools are full of the children of parents who care about education, while public schools are used as a free daycare center.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or because private schools are full of the children of parents who care about education, while public schools are used as a free daycare center.

This happens a lot unfortunately.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or because private schools are full of the children of parents who care about education, while public schools are used as a free daycare center.

This is also an important factor, alas. And for what I've seen not that much coupled on revenue...

[Lizzie]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or because private schools are full of the children of parents who care about education, while public schools are used as a free daycare center.

That and here at least the children are forced to go to school up to a certain age. You get a lot of kids who just don't want to be there and don't give a fuck, yet the teachers are required to spend about the same amount of effort on them.