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[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

So open hatred of Japan is actually a popular, and democratic opinion, not a CCP manipulation.

You seem to be missing the point entirely again.

Open hatred of Japan is the EASY way to score points with the Chinese people precisely because it is free. The Chinese leaders can complain to Japan and then get broad support for it, instead of, you know, doing actual governing. Hatred used to keep people happy, instead of the much harder option of actually solving real social problems.

You think "blame the Japanese" is a substitute to listening to the people's demands that are actually positive?

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You seem to be missing the point entirely again.

Open hatred of Japan is the EASY way to score points with the Chinese people precisely because it is free. The Chinese leaders can complain to Japan and then get broad support for it, instead of, you know, doing actual governing. Hatred used to keep people happy, instead of the much harder option of actually solving real social problems.

You think "blame the Japanese" is a substitute to listening to the people's demands that are actually positive?

And what make you think they aren't doing actual governing? The Chinese government is doing a much better job than....the current American Congress at least.

The Chinese Government is capable of handling more than one issue at a time, thank you very much. It is America who seem to be stuck on Abortion, Bengazi, or Obamacare.

The whole "X blame Y to hide its own problems" is a myth invented by the west in order to discredit governments they do not like rather than address legitimate grievances.

Other classic examples include

"Arab blame Israel to distract its own tyrannies", never minding Israel kind of drove millions of Arabs out of Palestine probably would piss off the neighbors who are united by blood and religion.

Or

"Iranians hate us because their government use Israel (or America) as a way to distract their people from real issues" Never minding Iran might be legitimately pissed by small things like having their government overthrown, ruled by a dictator installed, and stuff like sanctions and assassinations.

Or

"They hate us for our freedom."

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

And what make you think they aren't doing actual governing? The Chinese government is doing a much better job than....the current American Congress at least.

Hey now, in our vigour to defend our points and face down others .. let's not try to brush things under the carpet here ..

Look at statistics on congress and politburo turnover over the last several decades and then look at a combination of (true) GDP, CPI, inflation figures .. and then factor in the environmental catastrophe going on right now and I wouldn't grade the Chinese government so highly. Basically who's in power and who has done what. Let's be impartial in assign grades?

Obamacare is highly contentious right now -- but it is a massive attempt to induce change -- as difficult as it is. For example, if in the future people try to save social security, that, like Obamacare isn't going to be "clean" but -- it's things like these that have a lasting legacy that will only be properly judged in the annals of the history books.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

The whole "X blame Y to hide its own problems" is a myth invented by the west in order to discredit governments they do not like rather than address legitimate grievances.

Ironic that you state this directly after attempting to discredit a government to divert attention away from your own.

[Wigwams]

I think the Chinese government has done a good job since WW2. Obviously not perfect, could have been better, could have been more tolerable of criticism, could have been more practical, but still they did a good job. China has come a long way, and they probably arent near their planned finish line.

The whole shrine thing should be a non issue, it doesnt hurt anything except for feelings. True, Japan could have made more decisive steps in separating itself from imperial japan. When you think about Germany and the Nazi, the germans have made every bit of effort to "bring justice", even now very old Nazi officers are arrested / tried for their crimes.

Would have been nice if japan was similar, i think we can all agree that Japan is sort of trying to sweep WW2 under the rug. Modern japan is different from imperial japan, and modern japan has done alot of good to the world. I personally think visiting a shrine should not mean they are hostile or reverting to imperial japan or celebrating whatever they did during WW2.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by GDB

Ironic that you state this directly after attempting to discredit a government to divert attention away from your own.

Think of it as this way. Without the JP Prime Minister going around to that Shrine or making a big deal about Dayu Island, the Chinese would have no impetus in the matter. They go on manage a government, they have to deal with corruption, cultists, pollution, bad food, or other social ills.

Effectively, China is not in control of the situation except to respond, and they MUST respond by popular demand.

Unless you want to claim Abe is actually a Chinese "Manchurian candidate", who is secretly mind controlled/bribed by Bejing to start international incidents in order to divert from problems at home.

Now compare this to Iraq War. One could argue it was used to distract the American public from discontent/secure a ally state in the Middle East. Bush had the finger on the Red button. He had the CHOICE to attack or not. He Choose to bomb, and now America has received all the political benefit from that adventure.

[GDB]

I was actually talking about how you tried to say the Chinese government is doing a good job by bashing Congress.

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Now compare this to Iraq War. One could argue it was used to distract the American public from discontent/secure a ally state in the Middle East. Bush had the finger on the Red button. He had the CHOICE to attack or not. He Choose to bomb, and now America has received all the political benefit from that adventure.

Okay, get off your blind, patriotic horse. The Chinese government has to respond to a shrine visit, but the US government can merely choose whether to respond to thousands of deaths? If one can choose, so can the other. If one has to respond, so does the other. I'm not saying they're the same, but get some damned perspective.

[ganbaru]

Okinawa governor gives go-ahead for new US base
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...12-27-11-20-33

India seeks possible U.S. tax violations as stand hardens in diplomat row
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9BQ07120131227

Anti-Assad Lebanese ex-minister killed in Beirut bomb
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9BQ01H20131227

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by GDB

I was actually talking about how you tried to say the Chinese government is doing a good job by bashing Congress.



Okay, get off your blind, patriotic horse. The Chinese government has to respond to a shrine visit, but the US government can merely choose whether to respond to thousands of deaths? If one can choose, so can the other. If one has to respond, so does the other. I'm not saying they're the same, but get some damned perspective.

Was there Iraqi agents @ 9/11? No. Was Iraq materially supporting AQ? No. In the end, U.S gov choose to Initiate the actions that...did what it did. Saddam wasn't the active agent who started it, and even if he did, America could did what China is doing. political wordplay then move on.

Japan choose to go to that shrine fully well known both China and KOREA still harbor bitter feelings about WWII. If China or Korea left it unanswered, public outrage at home means whoever in charge of China will lose significant face, even ejection during the next party elections, and those in charge in SK would certainly be harmed during the next parliamentary elections.

One could even argue fail to respond could had led to the Left Wing Conservatives Maoist elements to take power and overthrow the current liberals, and bring China into the BAD OLD DAYS and rest of the world would have to suffer along side.

Japan is really getting it easy, butchering 50+ million people and all they have to deal with is two angry neighbors complaining about a Shrine.

In contrast, one broken railroad and one "missing" soldier cost rest of the Asia the tune of 100 million.

[GDB]

I'm not even talking about Iraq, just "responding". And for all your talk about whether Iraq was involved or not, you're sure quick to condemn people who weren't involved with your squabble too. Oh noes, they visited a shrine. Were they the ones who killed your people? No? Then how is it really any different?

If Bush didn't respond to 9/11, you think there wouldn't be public outrage at home that would lead him to lose significant face, even ejection during the next election? And unlike your current situation, the response isn't coming from people dying. It's coming from a visit to a shrine honoring those who killed people as well as those who didn't. Degrees of separation here.

Seriously, your patriotism is blinding you to simple logic. If you want to complain about it, fine, but then don't turn around and be hypocritical and judge the US for doing something that actually warranted a response, even if the response wasn't what it should have been.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by GDB

I'm not even talking about Iraq, just "responding". And for all your talk about whether Iraq was involved or not, you're sure quick to condemn people who weren't involved with your squabble too. Oh noes, they visited a shrine. Were they the ones who killed your people? No? Then how is it really any different?

If Bush didn't respond to 9/11, you think there wouldn't be public outrage at home that would lead him to lose significant face, even ejection during the next election? And unlike your current situation, the response isn't coming from people dying. It's coming from a visit to a shrine honoring those who killed people as well as those who didn't. Degrees of separation here.

Seriously, your patriotism is blinding you to simple logic. If you want to complain about it, fine, but then don't turn around and be hypocritical and judge the US for doing something that actually warranted a response, even if the response wasn't what it should have been.

Bush responded to 9/11. One could say he over compensated. He invade a second country that had nothing to do with 9/11. And look what did it costed America.

And by going to that Shrine as the PRIME MINISTER OF THE COUNTRY, Japan is effectively saying Second World War was a good thing. Their neighbors, for good reasons, are absolutely right to voice their disagreement.

As someone else put it on the thread, if Chancellor Merekel went visit Hitler's grave, then there would be a serious international incident as well...

[Ithekro]

Has anyone even bothered to check if he has family enshined there? And I don't mean just from World War II. There are soldiers enshined from well before that who died in the service of their Emperor.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Has anyone even bothered to check if he has family enshined there? And I don't mean just from World War II. There are soldiers enshined from well before that who died in the service of their Emperor.

That, to the people who lost families to Japan's aggression, wouldn't matter at all. You can bury all the innocent kids who lost their lives in that shrine, the fact it contained soldiers, from Generals who order the deed, to the grunts that carried it out, you will have people who hate what that shrine stood for.

One could say the Soviets saved the world a huge headache by scattering his ashes.

[Ithekro]

But it isn't the grave of one man. Or even a shrine to one man, nor just the A List War Criminals. Or even just those that died during the Second Sino-Japanese War/World War II. It covers men that died long before that. Men who died fighting the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War. Men who died fighting the Germans in World War I (what few died from Japan in that war). All sorts of thing.

You don't see protests when the President of the United States visits Arlington National Cemetery (That was originally General Robert E. Lee's home before the war). There are plenty of soldiers buried there from many, many wars. At least two Kennedy's are buried there (John and Robert).

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Has anyone even bothered to check if he has family enshined there? And I don't mean just from World War II. There are soldiers enshined from well before that who died in the service of their Emperor.

The problem with that war shrine isn't that regular soldiers were enshrined there. It's that ALL the soldiers who died related to WW2 were enshrined there...even officers who were executed after the war for war crimes.

It'd be the equivalent of having a cemetery dedicated to war dead where SS war criminals were interred.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You don't see protests when the President of the United States visits Arlington National Cemetery (That was originally General Robert E. Lee's home before the war). There are plenty of soldiers buried there from many, many wars. At least two Kennedy's are buried there (John and Robert).

A difference is that the ANC prohibited the interment of those who had been convicted of capital crimes.

(though like many countries, many of the war criminals were never even charged to begin with, but at least those who are officially recognized as capital offenders would be forbidden to be buried there).

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

A difference is that the ANC prohibited the interment of those who had been convicted of capital crimes.

(though like many countries, many of the war criminals were never even charged to begin with, but at least those who are officially recognized as capital offenders would be forbidden to be buried there).

Well, to be fair, America never lost a war since she was founded. Since War Crimes are usually charged only by the winners of a conflict on the losers.

If Confederate America or the third Reich won their wars, the ANC might be a bit more...controversial.

[maplehurry]

S. Korea to return ammo provided by Japan

The Korean government initially accepted it (or pretend to), but then they are "forced" to return it due to domestic criticisms.

[Lost Cause]

Curious, why couldn't the US supply them with said ammunition, there are several bases there as it is already.
And this Abe's "Proactive Pacifism"? Sounds rather ominous.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

But it isn't the grave of one man. Or even a shrine to one man, nor just the A List War Criminals. Or even just those that died during the Second Sino-Japanese War/World War II. It covers men that died long before that. Men who died fighting the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War. Men who died fighting the Germans in World War I (what few died from Japan in that war). All sorts of thing.

And that's the main thing a large number of people forget about that particular shrine. The media are having a field day because they want to shake down the house to sell papers by twisting words and overemphasizing parts that don't explain the global picture. There is a vast majority of people enshrined that you'd not give a damn about to begin with except for paying them due respect. For the record, several thousands of people come there on a yearly basis from different horizons and pay respect to the dead, end of. There's only one person who'd have the power to call something on the war criminals and it would be the Emperor, especially if he can have a high priest on his side who would be willing to "excommunicate" the 14 war criminals. I'd gladly write to him if I knew where to.

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

If China or Korea left it unanswered, public outrage at home means whoever in charge of China will lose significant face, even ejection during the next party elections, and those in charge in SK would certainly be harmed during the next parliamentary elections.

One could even argue fail to respond could had led to the Left Wing Conservatives Maoist elements to take power and overthrow the current liberals, and bring China into the BAD OLD DAYS and rest of the world would have to suffer along side.

Archmage, you have some issues. People would call you a WUM (wind-up merchant) for continuously spouting loads of crap. You make it sound like China and South Korea were the only ones to suffer at the hands of Japan during WWII. If they can't move on while the rest of Asia, Britain, the US, France, the Netherlands, Canada and Australia already did, that's their problem.

Overthrowing a government straight away just for potentially not reacting about something that no one even dares trying to understand deeper? What the hell are you on? You speculate this or that about China, but do you seriously believe the left wing conservatives would have enough backing up to even try anything? I doubt anyone would let China fall back into the bad old days without any reaction at home... unless you tell me the populace is totally gutless.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

S. Korea to return ammo provided by Japan

The Korean government initially accepted it (or pretend to), but then they are "forced" to return it due to domestic criticisms.

What a bunch of fickle tossers.

Wasn't that move originally approved by several SK government officials from a party sitting in majority at the parliament? For what I've seen in my lifetime, I've rarely seen politicians bending over to pressure quickly like that. On the field, that about stupid to leave your troops with less ammo in a war-torn country and then ask them to do their job anyway.