Dragon Ball Super (Manga)

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

And I would argue that Goku was not a holding back person in DBZ, at least after the freeza saga he was not holding back at all...but I will stop as it contributes nothing to the DBS

The entire Buu Saga is predicated upon Goku holding back from using SSJ3. He even says he should have killed Fat Buu when he had the chance, but he wanted Gotenks to have a chance at it.

In Resurrection of F, Goku fought with Frieza in multiple forms instead of going SSB from the beginning.

The same also applies to Broly. He started off in his normal form then ramped up as the fight went on.

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The entire Buu Saga is predicated upon Goku holding back from using SSJ3. He even says he should have killed Fat Buu when he had the chance, but he wanted Gotenks to have a chance at it.

In Resurrection of F, Goku fought with Frieza in multiple forms instead of going SSB from the beginning.

The same also applies to Broly. He started off in his normal form then ramped up as the fight went on.

Yes, but goku was buying time for Trunks to get the dragonball radar. And he frankly didn't know how much time he would have had after his ssj3 transformation.

Then, in the dbz manga, the fight inside the buu's body didn't happen. And in the final encounter against the kid buu, Goku pretty much just transformed into ssj3 right away.

Goku in DBS is just different. He just wants to know how strong he could be in his weakest form, which I think ironically Goku in DBZ rarely did that

@azenable
I think sharingan can see through the chakra. The wiki suggests that it happens on chapter 361, page 17

[azenable]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Yes, but goku was buying time for Trunks to get the dragonball radar. And he frankly didn't know how much time he would have had after his ssj3 transformation.

Then, in the dbz manga, the fight inside the buu's body didn't happen. And in the final encounter against the kid buu, Goku pretty much just transformed into ssj3 right away.

Goku in DBS is just different. He just wants to know how strong he could be in his weakest form, which I think ironically Goku in DBZ rarely did that

@azenable
I think sharingan can see through the chakra. The wiki suggests that it happens on chapter 361, page 17

Sharigan can see chakra and chakra color but not the flow within the vital points, only Byakugan can and thus the gentle fist unique to them.

in DBZ, Goku did not use kaioken x20 right from the start and he had a warm-up session with Cell, but I think that's normal for a martial art fight to feel your oppenent first.
For Broly case, he was actually learning how to transform as the fight goes along.
Back to goku, his intention is always to prolong the fight as he wanto enjoy it, but when comes to someone he seriously wants to kill he does not, eg Daimou piccolo and Goku Rose

[azenable]

Originally Posted by GDB

I assumed the intent was to say he didn't use Instant Transmission (light speed travel), but rather the thing Supreme Kai/Kibito use that's just literal teleportation with no time delay at all.

IT isn’t light spread travel. It is the same thing Kaioshin uses just with a different navigation system

[Chosen_Hero]

Pretty sure that Instant Transmission is supposed to be, you know, instant. Light speed travel is what they do normally when they fly and fight (you know, when they dodge literal light beams that move at the speed of, you guessed it, light), so they are completely different.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Pretty sure that Instant Transmission is supposed to be, you know, instant. Light speed travel is what they do normally when they fly and fight (you know, when they dodge literal light beams that move at the speed of, you guessed it, light), so they are completely different.

The travel itself is instant, but technically sensing the ki and determining the destination to transport to isn't.

[Ka-el]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The entire Buu Saga is predicated upon Goku holding back from using SSJ3. He even says he should have killed Fat Buu when he had the chance, but he wanted Gotenks to have a chance at it.

In Resurrection of F, Goku fought with Frieza in multiple forms instead of going SSB from the beginning.

The same also applies to Broly. He started off in his normal form then ramped up as the fight went on.

Goku held back against Fat Buu only for that moment because he didn't want to be the one that everybody had to rely upon even because he was already dead, and there were needed new heroes, living ones, to protect the Earth.
In any other situations he never held back if he didn't need to spare Ki.
Saiyan Saga: Goku is careful not to use Kaioken against Nappa because it's dangerous and has huge drawbacks. Against Vegeta he immediately goes for Kaioken as he realized he cannot win without it and doesn't hesitate to goes beyond his limits with x3 and even x4.
Freeza Saga: against Ginyu Squad he doesn't need to use his true strenght and win easily, against Ginyu he still holds back because he wanna be full power when he faces Freeza, but once he realizes he cannot win without Kaioken he activates it just to have the opponent lose will to fight. Against Freeza he doesn't hold back, he tries to raise his power according to how Freeza raises his level, but once Freeza tells him he just need 50% of his power to turn him into space dust, Goku fights full power, even with Kaioken x10 and when he gets he has no chance he tries with x20 praying that he lied about using only 50% to destroy him otherwise it would have never been enough.
Cell Saga: he goes straight for Super Saiyan against C-19, then against Cell he doesn't hold back even if he knows he has no chance, in fact he literally fights to understand how powerful Cell is as he wanted to be sure if Gohan would have won.
Buu Saga: except for Majin Vegeta (that's however cause of plot, because Toriyama didn't think about SSJ3 by then) as if he turned Buu would have been awakened in a few seconds because of the loss of the enegy and even to not hurt Vegeta's pride, and Buu to entrust Goten and Trunks the future of the Earth, Goku fights full power all the time. In the manga in Kaioshin's planet he turns immediately SSJ3 without wasting a single moment in SSJ2.

[Kanon]

Chapter is out.

One thing Granolah's got going for him is that he didn't let the power get to his head. He was saving his strength for Frieza and prodding the Saiyans at the same time. Ironically, unless he's trained again, Frieza should just be small potatoes to Granolah.

On the other hand... it seems like they've turned him into a fighter who basically has all the abilities in the universe (minus UI, I guess). We've seen him use hakai, teleportation, and now Moro's lava technique.

Vegeta seems pretty confident he can take him on, but I know better than to expect anything from him by now.

[justavisitor]

What happens to the auto-dodge and the ability that the muscle can be hardened by itself??

Am I the only one who thinks it's time to give another Halo to Goku? Life and death have no meaning in DB, but it is time for goku to have another lesson. Lately, his "I don't care if you are a bad guy or have a tragic past, train harder so we will have a better match next time!" attitude is getting really infuriating

[Galaxian]

I know I am setting myself up for disappointment, but with Granolah's whole "I'm going to make the Saiyan race extinct", I hope that they bring Broly into the story.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

I know I am setting myself up for disappointment, but with Granolah's whole "I'm going to make the Saiyan race extinct", I hope that they bring Broly into the story.

Goku and Vegeta are probably stronger than Broly now, so there'd be no point in bringing him back other than wasting time.

[Tong]

Broly has no limits though.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Goku and Vegeta are probably stronger than Broly now, so there'd be no point in bringing him back other than wasting time.

Vegeta: How did Broly get so much stronger?!

Goku: I've been checking on him from time to time and giving him pointers. He's a really quick learner!

Vegeta: WHAT?!

There, solved.

[justavisitor]

I don't see how Vegeta can beat Granolah at this point. The best idea is, he hakai the whole planet (There is a panel describing that the occupants are leaving in this chapter), grabs goku, and leaves with instant transmission XD

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I don't see how Vegeta can beat Granolah at this point. The best idea is, he hakai the whole planet (There is a panel describing that the occupants are leaving in this chapter), grabs goku, and leaves with instant transmission XD

The Sugarians are leaving the nearby city, not the planet. Granolah could probably easily follow him anyway.

I actually have no idea what's going to happen next. Vegeta has no intention of talking Granolah out of his revenge, and is in fact riling him up (probably as part of a strategy). Unless the impossible happens, he has no chance of winning either. So how are they going to survive?

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

What happens to the auto-dodge and the ability that the muscle can be hardened by itself??

The same thing that happens to any ability or trait in this series. As soon as it's not convenient it's forgotten, ignored, or retconned.

[Kanon]

It's clearly explained in the chapter. Complete UI's accuracy drops over time and that allowed Granolah to find an opening to strike a vital spot. Also, Granolah is just that ridiculously strong.

[DemonOfWrath]

Except complete UI has appeared several times prior without that loss of accuracy being mentioned or shown. It's an ass-pull, even if the ass-pull is being explained as it happens. Everything we've been shown about complete UI prior to this chapter makes it seem weird he could get caught completely off-guard like that while in it. Heck he didn't even react to the attack.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by DemonOfWrath

Except complete UI has appeared several times prior without that loss of accuracy being mentioned or shown.

Did you just come from watching the anime?

In the manga version, it's established that Goku tired himself out using UI against Jiren in the Tournament of Power.

[DemonOfWrath]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Did you just come from watching the anime?

In the manga version, it's established that Goku tired himself out using UI against Jiren in the Tournament of Power.

Actually I've never watched the anime, and only read the manga.
Stamina hasn't been presented as loss of accuracy before this one moment. It's just been presented as "you run out, transformation ends". There was nothing stated against Jiren (in the manga fight ) that he lost accuracy over time (just if he had the stamina to keep the form going for long enough), and against Moro he actually gained accuracy as the fight went on.