Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

The preview strongly indicates that it's revealed that Setsuna is Lockon's "enemy" in a particularly personal way. However, I don't see any way Setsuna could have been responsible for Lockon's parents deaths - Setsuna would have been too young and in the wrong place (both by a long way). So what could trigger Lockon to hate Setsuna...? Here's one idea - if the Trinity have hacked into Veda (or have info from one who has) then it is possible that they have detailed background info on all the Meisters. It's possible that Lockon gets involved with Setsuna's fight, but someone (probably "don't get on my bad side" Nena) drops a nasty bomb as the two groups part ways - that Setsuna killed his own parents.

To Lockon, this could be all but unforgivable.

But what holds him back? Hence the title of the next ep - "Bonds".

If I were Lockon, I'd be shocked that Celestial Being had such a person working for it. I don't really see how he could be personally angry with Setsuna. Rather, he should question the nature of the organization he's working for, where it has psychos, ex-cons, and cradle-to-grave terrorists working for it.

Not to say Lockon's past isn't checkered, but we don't know one way or another since his background hasn't been elaborated on at all.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by johann_023

wow... this ep is jus awesome... the most emotional one ... i hope setsuna and graham team up against the thrones... it wud be so cool... and graham should get his own gundam, he's like one of the best pilots ...

Setsuna + Graham tag team = dead Trinity team.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

If I were Lockon, I'd be shocked that Celestial Being had such a person working for it. I don't really see how he could be personally angry with Setsuna. Rather, he should question the nature of the organization he's working for, where it has psychos, ex-cons, and cradle-to-grave terrorists working for it.

Not to say Lockon's past isn't checkered, but we don't know one way or another since his background hasn't been elaborated on at all.

Lockon *hates* terrorists - they killed his parents. So he should naturally hate Setsuna who was pretty much a terrorist who killed his own parents (except of course Lockon has gotten to know Setsuna for a while so would probably figure Setsuna's not like that anymore... eventually). Remember when Lockon lost his cool over terrorists before?

Well, that's my best theory so far.

[Dean_the_Young]

There might be the minor detail that Setsuna would have likely still been in Kurdistan being bamboozled by Ali at the time Lockon's parents were killed, if he was even that old.

[Chase]

Is this the top episode thread yet?lol. I see it has 43,000 views and 62 replies.wow.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

There might be the minor detail that Setsuna would have likely still been in Kurdistan being bamboozled by Ali at the time Lockon's parents were killed, if he was even that old.

Based on Lockon's probable age at the time of the bombing, Setsuna would have probably been in the womb.

Lockon is 24/25, Setsuna is 16/17. Lockon appears to be very young in the flashbacks, probably between eight and twelve. Setsuna's at least four in his flashbacks of murdering his parents.

And my point is if the reason why Lockon joined Celestial Being was terrorism, the fact they recruited Setsuna who is a terrorist should bother him more than the fact that Setsuna is a terrorist.

None of the Meisters are friends with one another. That they would turn on eachother, just like they've turned their backs to the world, shouldn't be a surprise.

Here's hoping they seriously start to question who and what they're working for exactly, instead of passing the blame onto the Thrones and breaking out the conspiratorial shit to deny what is in front of their own eyes.

[Dean_the_Young]

There is a difference between child soldiers and terrorists, you know. Having met a former child soldier myself, there exists a serious gulf between an ideologically-driven adult and a child who sees his hopes and fears used against him.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

There is a difference between child soldiers and terrorists, you know. Having met a former child soldier myself, there exists a serious gulf between an ideologically-driven adult and a child who sees his hopes and fears used against him.

I think there's a difference between raising a kid to be a soldier and raising them to be a terrorist. I think Ali's training puts Setsuna more squarely in the terrorist camp. He's certainly no Sosuke Sagara.

...No comment on Lock-on finding or not finding fault in Celestial Being for recruiting someone like Setsuna?

[Dean_the_Young]

Considering how there's no indication that Setsuna trained to or carried out bombings of civilian assemblies, why should he? If you want to see Setsuna as having been trained to be a rag-head terrorist, it's not like I can stop you. I just feel it's been put rather simply that he was a child soldier who listened to seductive words about god.

[Papaya]

It's probably a lot more likely that Setsuna's "past involvement with someone in the present" has to do with Marina. Probably killed Marina's family or something.

Lockon pointing his gun at Setsuna is probably more of a "you acted on your own, wtf dude" sort of thing.

[Lendial]

great ep, definitely the highlight of the series to date.

so veda is a quantum computer that projects future events? i thought it would be some sort of artificial intelligence programmed directly by aoela schonberg but its just a statistics program.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Considering how there's no indication that Setsuna trained to or carried out bombings of civilian assemblies, why should he? If you want to see Setsuna as having been trained to be a rag-head terrorist, it's not like I can stop you. I just feel it's been put rather simply that he was a child soldier who listened to seductive words about god.

Setsuna was about eight when he murdered his parents right? I suppose that's the right age you can bullshit your way into convincing a kid to murder his own parents. He's physically capable of handling a weapon, he doesn't have a firm belief system in place yet, probably a tenacious at best ability to distinquish between right and wrong...

Anyway, this show is absolutely horrid about giving details. As much as we've seen the Meisters we still don't know what makes them tick or where they're coming from. Since their mission is a selfish one that uses violent ends, while maintaining absolute secrecy from the rest of humanity, it simply makes more sense to find as much fault in them as possible.

Guilty until proven innocent, you know?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Setsuna was about eight when he murdered his parents right? I suppose that's the right age you can bullshit your way into convincing a kid to murder his own parents. He's physically capable of handling a weapon, he doesn't have a firm belief system in place yet, probably a tenacious at best ability to distinquish between right and wrong...

There were guys who were PhDs who were convinced that killing people in the subway in Japan was the right thing to do. When it comes to religion/fanaticism and brainwashing age and knowledge don't mean much.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

There were guys who were PhDs who were convinced that killing people in the subway in Japan was the right thing to do. When it comes to religion/fanaticism and brainwashing age and knowledge don't mean much.

At best, that proves that a PhD doesn't mean you know everything.

And what I meant was eight is the optimal age for indocturnating a kid into being a murderer. You also shouldn't say he was brainwashed, since technically you need something in your head ahead of time that needs to be removed before training and education can take place. Setsuna was almost a blank slate for Ali.

Ali used "God", but if he'd invoked the name Ronald McDonald, it probably would have had the same effect on Setsuna, only being harder for him to say.

Of course, Setsuna hating on a fast food franchise rather than the All Mighty doesn't have as serious an impact does it?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

At best, that proves that a PhD doesn't mean you know everything.

And what I meant was eight is the optimal age for indocturnating a kid into being a murderer. You also shouldn't say he was brainwashed, since technically you need something in your head ahead of time that needs to be removed before training and education can take place. Setsuna was almost a blank slate for Ali.

Ali used "God", but if he'd invoked the name Ronald McDonald, it probably would have had the same effect on Setsuna, only being harder for him to say.

Of course, Setsuna hating on a fast food franchise rather than the All Mighty doesn't have as serious an impact does it?

That is a good point, but I would say that Setsuna already had the foundation laid from his upbringing (not an attack on religion), but Ali was able to twist the religious upbringing into a dark and horrific way. The show does suggest that Setsuna's country was heavily religious based.

[SuperKnuckles]

Yeah, well. Tell me one Muslim nation that isn't.... Muslim..

[fizzmaister]

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW, isn't it strange, that the Trinity had some personal information about the Ptolemaios' Crew (like Al beeing a Super-Soldier), but didn't even know their names? This makes me wonder, where they got their information from.

I think it would make sense if they had reports only. If I was in charge of information security, I would make sure all reports be as vague on personal details as possible. The attack on the super soldier facility was added later to Veda's systems it's possible that the Trinities inferred from the amount of info about the facility that CB had a super soldier.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW, isn't it strange, that the Trinity had some personal information about the Ptolemaios' Crew (like Al beeing a Super-Soldier), but didn't even know their names? This makes me wonder, where they got their information from.

Not to mention that Nena didn't know what Setsuna looked like, even though she was apparently interested in him. Maybe they don't know all that much about the Meisters, since they could probably have found out Allejuah's origins through the mission he performed. And in the next episode where Setsuna's history is revealed to the rest of the Meisters, that might be guesswork on the Trinty's part since Setsuna played a pivital role in episode 13.

I think it'd be presumptious to assume they know much at all. In all likelihood they've been monitoring the B-Team for quite some time. Probably since their first intervention.

Come to think of it, Nena being enanmored with Setsuna might have been a long time in coming. He acts out on missions and punishment was considered a number of times, his suit has been used for the most public of specticals like the hostage return. Basically if there's a suit and pilot most symbolic of what Celestial Being had been doing up til that time, it'd be Setsuna since he gets most of the attention.

Makes you wonder if he hadn't rejected her, would she have still blown up the wedding?

[Shinkouhyou]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Yeah, well. Tell me one Muslim nation that isn't.... Muslim..

Well, Kurdistan is an autonomous federal region... and not all Kurds are Muslim. In fact, a lot of them only identify as Sunni Muslim to protect themselves while practicing a variety of native religions involving angel worship. There are several other minority religions, too. Who knows what Setsuna was into...

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Yeah, well. Tell me one Muslim nation that isn't.... Muslim..

Turkey. They're just hyper-nationalist (in some fields) instead.

Besides, your definition of Muslim is almost entirely derived from the modern extremists who assumed power with the Entente's blessing after WW1. Before that, the Ottomans consistently cracked down on the extreme varients that now rule Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the other countries of the ME. If it weren't for Entente greed driving the to carve up the Ottomans, who were at the beginning of an internal reformation and industrialization, we wouldn't have seen the rise of the Oil Shieks and many of the problems of the ME.

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW, isn't it strange, that the Trinity had some personal information about the Ptolemaios' Crew (like Al beeing a Super-Soldier), but didn't even know their names? This makes me wonder, where they got their information from.

Gundam pilot names are a Class S secret in Celestial Being, along with the Solar Furnaces, meaning they are strictly need-to-know. I believe it was mentioned in episode 3? 4?