NFL and College Football (American Football) Thread

[solomon]

So much for the young defense.....

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

He's good, he gets shit done, and just because he didn't bring Philly to the promise land, the fans will never forgive him. He is a future hall of famer, and this point I would want Mcnabbs flawed but known potential versus the unknown that is Kolb. Kolb had two great games when garcia had the starting job and went out due to injury, but so far he's just ineffective, mcnabb isn't efficient and he isn't accurate but there is always a 33%ish chance for him to kill you with a bomb, he is a streaky player, but the point is even with a 60 point passer rating his team was the victor, and the thing is even with Andy Reid's shitty play clock management, Mcnabb won those games where he "almost" lost them. That's how I've always thought of him. If he had a better coach McNabb would be a shoe in for the hall of fame.

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This is nothing new...This has happened all throughout the history of NFL football...When you have a guy for a starter for a decade and he doesn't produce a championship or hasn't produced a championship for a while it's a natural inclination to want to bring in new blood...Except for the super-elites (Terry Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, etc.) This has always happened...Hell let me contradict myself a bit, even Brett Favre and Dan Marino couldn't escape this fate...

McNabb is going to be a borderline Hall of Famer...He won't get in on his first ballot, maybe not even 2nd, but he'll get in there for time served (And honestly he has a level of pathos from so many in the media that'll get him through)...To me, McNabb nutured his own capabilities...By going so hardcore against being looked at as a running black QB, he took his most essential skill (The skill that has Vick looking like Steve Young on Steroids right now) and limited himself IMO...He's not a pure west-coast QB and by purposely taking that aspect out of his game it put the spotlight on his shaky accuracy as a QB...

He probably would have been great in Mike Shanahan's offense back in the day...The Bootlegs, the sprint-actions, where he would only have to throw to 1 or 2 receivers downfield would have been better for his career...Imagine him instead of Jake Plummer in that Denver offense pre-Cutler...

McNabb has obviously had a good career, but when you examine it under a microscope, or even in microcosm, there was more than enuff evidence provided to validate a switch in Philly based on performance...Not that Kolb (or even Vick to some extent) is soooo much better, but that they represent a new dynamic moving forward...

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

This is nothing new...This has happened all throughout the history of NFL football...When you have a guy for a starter for a decade and he doesn't produce a championship or hasn't produced a championship for a while it's a natural inclination to want to bring in new blood...Except for the super-elites (Terry Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, etc.) This has always happened...Hell let me contradict myself a bit, even Brett Favre and Dan Marino couldn't escape this fate...

McNabb is going to be a borderline Hall of Famer...He won't get in on his first ballot, maybe not even 2nd, but he'll get in there for time served (And honestly he has a level of pathos from so many in the media that'll get him through)...To me, McNabb nutured his own capabilities...By going so hardcore against being looked at as a running black QB, he took his most essential skill (The skill that has Vick looking like Steve Young on Steroids right now) and limited himself IMO...He's not a pure west-coast QB and by purposely taking that aspect out of his game it put the spotlight on his shaky accuracy as a QB...

He probably would have been great in Mike Shanahan's offense back in the day...The Bootlegs, the sprint-actions, where he would only have to throw to 1 or 2 receivers downfield would have been better for his career...Imagine him instead of Jake Plummer in that Denver offense pre-Cutler...

McNabb has obviously had a good career, but when you examine it under a microscope, or even in microcosm, there was more than enuff evidence provided to validate a switch in Philly based on performance...Not that Kolb (or even Vick to some extent) is soooo much better, but that they represent a new dynamic moving forward...

Your playing minutia here, and the league standard is, if it ain't sinking don't fix it, look at Caughlin, although he won a superbowl, and destroying the patriots perfect season, he has basically had his team disintegrate while having a manning, it just goes to show that the switch based on seriously near insignificant improvements just don't happen in the NFL unless you can shed some huge bucks by eliminating contracts, but Mcnabb was already at the tail end of his career, he wasn't, isn't going to see big money again, and he doesn't have Farve's pedigree so the improvement in the current NFL should not have warranted his very ugly dismissal. Basically Philly Lebroned Mcnabb with a lot more class, and Mcnabb was a man about it.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dilla

Five forced turnovers and two defensive scores tonight.

And I'm going to lose by 4 freakin' points because neither Wes Welker or Brandon Marshall couldn't score a TD. What the hell, how often does that happen?

Fantasy football can be frustrating sometimes, but I still love it.

Indeed. Luckily I had San Diego in one league, who put up huge numbers, and Seattle in the other who... didn't cost me the game, at least?

Also, one of my RBs in both leagues is McCoy. Combined with my QB woes, and having Andre Johnson in one league... ouch.

Is it just me, or are there a lot more injuries this year than usual?

[wingdarkness]

Nosuaz, remember the Devil is in the details...If you you ignore the details...He'll win...

Now I'm not some douchbag that hides behind the numbers all the time if ever, but 59.4% Lifetime Completion Percentage in the playoffs...That's some minutia for youra$$ if we're talking elite...But again it's not just about that, it just contextualizes my earlier points about his inaccuracy as a passer in a league that over the last 5 years is so much more based on that from the QB position, especially in the West Coast derivative offense...

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Nosuaz, remember the Devil is in the details...If you you ignore the details...He'll win...

Now I'm not some douchbag that hides behind the numbers all the time if ever, but 59.4% Lifetime Completion Percentage in the playoffs...That's some minutia for youra$$ if we're talking elite...But again it's not just about that, it just contextualizes my earlier points about his inaccuracy as a passer in a league that over the last 5 years is so much more based on that from the QB position, especially in the West Coast derivative offense...

Compared to Kolb who has how many playoff appearences? Vick who is returning from prison? Come on, if they went to get another "elite" franchise QB I could understand the offloading of Mcnabb that wasn't the case, they had setup Kolb to be the heir apparent, and apparently he wasn't ready.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

SO Wingdarkness brings up McNabbs innaccuracy again (in my opinion its not as consistently bad as he likes to make it seem) and while there is truth to the claim I must say that those passing problems are hardly an excuse for getting rid of him. The bottom line is he was the best choice to keep at QB and the your best chance at making the superbowl.

I still can't comprehend how you can get rid of someone with stats like this (excluding his rookie season)...

* In 112 regular season games, McNabb has an impressive record of 71-35.

* The second best touchdown to interception ratio (2.1)---ever.

* Least-intercepted quarterback per pass attempt of all time, (4588 attempts-96 interceptions, 2.09%)

* Currently the third-highest winning percentage among active quarterbacks behind Peyton Manning and Tom Brady

* Led the Eagles to the playoffs in 7 of his 9 years as quarterback

* His never lost a first round playoff game

* Has more passing yards and touchdowns then any other Eagles quarterback ever

People who criticize McNabb point to the same things: accuracy, injuries, his smug attitude, and his inability to win the big game. To those people, I think they need to look closer at McNabb's career a little closer.

* McNabb has started 30 of the last 32 Eagles games, and for his career, has started 85% of Eagles games played (since his was drafted)

* Has completed over 57 percent of his passes every year but 1 (his rookie year).

* McNabb is within 5 percentage points, in terms of career completion percentage, of all of these "elite" quarterbacks : Peyton Manning, Tom. Brady, Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Kurt Warner

* Dan Marino's completion percentage: 59.4. McNabb's? 58.9

* He has a higher career completion percentage then John Elway, and is 41rst overall in career completion percentage, out of 219 players.

* McNabb has only thrown over 10 interceptions in a season 4 times out of his 10 seasons. In contrast, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Eli Mannin, Tony Romo and John Elway have all thrown over 10 interceptions all but 1 of the seasons they played.

* In 14 playoff games, McNabb is 9-5, for a winning percentage of 64. Compared to other quarterbacks, Peyton Manning (46%), Brett Favre (54%), and John Elway (63%), that is an impressive figure.

* Ok, he lost the Super Bowl. But that was 1 game, facing a dynasty team. And he did throw 3 interceptions, but he also threw for over 300 yards and 3 touchdowns.


So in comparison to other quarterbacks, its not fair to say he is a horribly inaccurate passer, or that he gets hurt all of the time. If he is a horrible passer, at a 58 percent completion, what does that make Elway? An awful passer? What does that make Joe Montana (63% comp.)? A marginal passer? Its not fair to slam McNabb for being inaccurate, then praise Manning, Elway, or Montana for being one of the best passers ever, when there completion numbers are comparable.

[wingdarkness]

@Nousauz - You're missing the point...You have no clue if anybody is gonna be "elite" when you replace a franchise QB...Those are the risks, they are always the risks, but when you have a franchise QB that hasn't won the big one and you've seen him fail repeatedly in the same kind of way in the postseason, you move on with a new dynamic...The team in Philly has completely changed from McNabb's prime years and you move on with the hope that the guy you've evaluated and DRAFTED HIGH can start a new chapter...It happens all the time...

McNabb showed Philly for the better part of 10 years that he can't get over the hump in the playoffs and he has failed pretty much in the same fashion each time....I'm not saying it's insanity in this case to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result, but for Philly it was close...It's called fatigue...

@GuidoHunter you're extrapolating that point based on the flaw and assumption that I consider McNabb's historical regular season numbers on par with the guys you have just mentioned, so it's a null set comparison here...That's like saying Peyton Manning sucks if he had a 55% completion percentage in the playoffs, but historically he's near 70%...McNabb's numbers regular season and playoffs have hovered consistently below 60%...That's an inaccurate QB, who doesn't suck at all, but IMO makes him a notch below elite...

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

You're missing the point...You have no clue if anybody is gonna be "elite" when you replace a franchise QB...Those are the risks, they are always the risks, but when you have a franchise QB that hasn't won the big one and you've seen him fail repeatedly in the same kind of way in the postseason, you move on with a new dynamic...The team in Philly has completely changed from McNabb's prime years and you move on with the hope that the guy you've evaluated and DRAFTED HIGH can start a new chapter...It happens all the time...

McNabb showed Philly for the better part of 10 years that he can't get over the hump in the playoffs and he has failed pretty much in the same fashion each time....I'm not saying it's insanity in this case to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result, but for Philly it was close...It's called fatigue...

And this is what I'm saying, any dead beat could realize Kolb wouldn't be able to carry the mantle. Vick is too much of a risk because of his play style at this point (he just got injured) and Kolb is...well Kolb. McNabb was still their best chance and honestly it seemed like they got the workings of a good system in place before they got rid of him.

McNabb always needed a big reciever, they just got one with jackson and he was money in the bank for McNabb the year before. They could've let that dynamic develop more (Kolb sure can't match it). They got rid of Westbrook, but McCoy is a good replacement with the same style and you know how McNabb and the Eagles loved using thos screen passes (they were one of the best teams at it). If they could have fixed their OL issue (the biggest issue the Eagles have outside of the QB) I have no doubt the Eagles would still be like they always were, consistent Super Bowl Contenders. And heck who knows if their time was about to come or not. The fact that they made it deep into the playoffs so often, why not stick with it as long as you can to see if you can break the threshold. Better than going with something that is clearly an inferior plan.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@GuidoHunter you're extrapolating that point based on the flaw and assumption that I consider McNabb's historical regular season numbers on par with the guys you have just mentioned, so it's a null set comparison here...That's like saying Peyton Manning sucks if he had a 55% completion percentage in the playoffs, but historically he's near 70%...McNabb's numbers regular season and playoffs have hovered consistently below 60%...That's an inaccurate QB, who doesn't suck at all, but IMO makes him a notch below elite...

Well it wasn't like I was going straight off of what you said I was just making a sweeping general argument about the usual reasons given by people (usually Eagles fans) why they needed to get rid of McNabb and how they seem to ignore all the good things he brought to the team. Philly fans love looking at the negatives.

Yes I know he isn't elite (although I like to think of him as such since I practical worship the guy) yet the guy still had the ability to keep my team a superbowl contender and I will always ponder about what could have been had he stayed.

Maybe my teams current situation at QB wouldn't be as bad if our OL didn't reek.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Guidohunter

why not stick with it as long as you can to see if you can break the threshold

Because they saw enuff...It's really not that complex...

It's like I said McNabb is a polarizing figure, one of the biggest ever and you'll never be able to convince his fans he was subpar in alot of areas...I've just never been a McNabb fan (For various reasons I suppose) and understand why Philly got rid of him...Kolb was drafted because of his "accurate arm" which is in clear disposition to McNabb...That's not to say he was or will ever be better, but that's why they got him...The NFL is more about accuracy from the QB position than it has ever been...That's why they got him...

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Because they saw enuff...It's really not that complex...

Yes, yes...Doesn't change my opnion on it being quite the stupid decision.

I guess I just have more patience and hopes than the typical fan.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Because they saw enuff...It's really not that complex...

It's like I said McNabb is a polarizing figure, one of the biggest ever and you'll never be able to convince his fans he was subpar in alot of areas...I've just never been a McNabb fan (For various reasons I suppose) and understand why Philly got rid of him...Kolb was drafted because of his "accurate arm" which is in clear disposition to McNabb...That's not to say he was or will ever be better, but that's why they got him...The NFL is more about accuracy from the QB position than it has ever been...That's why they got him...

Look no one is argueing that Mcnabb is "the be all" to quarterbacks of the future, I'm just saying philly made a mistake because in the end off of 4 starts you can't really gauge a quarterbacks skill, and the fact that Reid flipped flopped on starting kolb over vick is the proof of the lack of confidence in Kolb, with vick at the helm the eagles were a playoff contender with kolb I think they really need to pray for a 500 season.

[Highman]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Look no one is argueing that Mcnabb is "the be all" to quarterbacks of the future, I'm just saying philly made a mistake because in the end off of 4 starts you can't really gauge a quarterbacks skill, and the fact that Reid flipped flopped on starting kolb over vick is the proof of the lack of confidence in Kolb, with vick at the helm the eagles were a playoff contender with kolb I think they really need to pray for a 500 season.

Well they do have a chance to make some things happened on Week 5 on the other hand who's going to be (0-16) team for this season.

My Carolina Panthers, Detroit Lions or the pathetic San Francisco 49ers.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Highman

My Carolina Panthers, Detroit Lions or the pathetic San Francisco 49ers.

I'm thinking it'll be detroit. I can see Carolina and the 49ers mustering up at least a win or two.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

with kolb I think they really need to pray for a 500 season.

They'll have to pray even harder if McCoy ends up missing game time due to that fractured rib.

Originally Posted by Highman

Well they do have a chance to make some things happened on Week 5 on the other hand who's going to be (0-16) team for this season.

My Carolina Panthers, Detroit Lions or the pathetic San Francisco 49ers.

Uhm, forgetting the obvious choice? The Bills? Detroit's already come insanely close to being 3-1 right now, and 49ers were really close to being 2-2. With a new offensive head coach, and all those weapons at their disposal, they'll be fine. Panthers came close to beating New Orleans, and at the very least they play Arizona later this season.

The Bills, on the other hand, play against the AFC East twice, AFC North once, and NFC North once. Throw in Jacksonville next week (coming off a win against Indy, and not wanting to lose face) and Kansas City (good at stopping the run), and they're utterly boned.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by GDB

They'll have to pray even harder if McCoy ends up missing game time due to that fractured rib.

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aDepends on how long McCoy is out for, if it coincides with Vicks injury then it should be a nonfactor but if he's out for most of the season then Philly is done, because Vick can't carry that team, you have to have a decent RB to give credibility to vicks play action, play fakes and deep ball.

[ChainLegacy]

Brandon Tate is a BEAST... can't wait to see how he develops over the season and next few years.

[Highman]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Brandon Tate is a BEAST... can't wait to see how he develops over the season and next few years.

If Brandon Tate going to be a BEAST then Patrick Chung could be a GOD soon.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Highman

If Brandon Tate going to be a BEAST then Patrick Chung could be a GOD soon.

Yeah, Chung too, though I always get very impressed by kick returns for TD's, I think it is one of the coolest things you can do in football, thus why I focused on Tate. But Chung was phenomenal and along with Merriweather the backfield might not be bad at all but actually very good. They're still inexperienced though so we'll have to see how they do against more challenging opponents.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Look no one is argueing that Mcnabb is "the be all" to quarterbacks of the future, I'm just saying philly made a mistake because in the end off of 4 starts you can't really gauge a quarterbacks skill, and the fact that Reid flipped flopped on starting kolb over vick is the proof of the lack of confidence in Kolb, with vick at the helm the eagles were a playoff contender with kolb I think they really need to pray for a 500 season.

Dude you ever been with a girl you really like? I mean you really like this chick, you finally holler at her, get her number, go on a few dates, and feel like she's the one? Then on the day you go to ask her to go "steady" (Right as you hop on the elevator in her apartment building) you meet this smoking hot chick that just makes you're heart (and other things) explode on first impact...Now you care about your girl, but this elevator chick is giving you the ill-vibe, she's just blowing your mind...Now you never meant for that to happen, it just did...And so you ask Elevator chick for her number, get it, and then visit your main girl and talk about what happened at her job today instead of asking her to be yours forever...

That's what Andy Reid did...Ain't shit wrong with that...Vick blew his effin mind...Who gives a crap if he flip-flopped? This isn't 3rd Congressional District Politics in Virginia, it's football (And the most important thing is that the LOCKER ROOM endorsed this)...If someone is playing absolutely awesome, you let them play (And you keep your main girl on the side ready to show her how much you really care about her if the elevator chick dumps your a$$ or gets a rash^^)...