Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

Just to clarify, when I said it's very hard to watch, I meant it's hard to watch Sayaka suffer because she's a very sweet girl that doesn't deserve all the crap she's getting and what it's turning her into...

[Jimmy C]

If she did that, there's only one reliable place to put it for the duration, with Madoka. On the plus side, it's doubtful that Madoka would run away with it.

[jeroz]

so essentially Sayaka fights like a zombie.

.....now where that chainsaw? :P

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by jeroz

can you tell me where exactly though? I went back to ep2 and can't find any footage of it.

I think he meant episode one, when the three girls were eating at the school cafeteria, Sayaka said she could not join the two, and Hitomi asked if she is going again to visit Kamijio-kun.

[Kawakanai]

Been sick the last week so catching up with the forums looks a daunting task....

Just saw this episode. The downward slide of Sayaka and Kyoko gets a backstory. And the quasi-torture scene with Kyuube showing Sayaka about real pain without the Soul Gem. And oh my, insane Sayaka at the end of the episode. That Sayaka beserker approach is sure to burn up lots of magical energy and dim her soul Soul Gem.

Excellent Episode!

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, damn. Seems like I am the only person who really connected with Sayaka this episode on a sympathetic level. But first let me offer an interpretation/clear up an issue that it seems many people haven't explicitly picked up on?

This has to do with two issues which have been specifically commented on about this episode, Kyuubey's 'you could go further' comment and Sayaka's breakdown. Some people seemed to be under the impression that Kyuubey was referring to the Soul Gem extraction process rather than the Soul Gem itself; based on what seemed to me like a more obvious first impression, I am offering the interpretation I believe to be correct.

Kyuubey referred in this episode to the human 'soul' as existing in people's nerves, brain, etc. It fades away as one's life dissipates in the throes of death; in function, it seems to be very much similar to the concept of 'consciousness'. What Kyuubey said was basically that your physical senses and consciousness have been transferred into your soul gem; i.e. in biological terms (your sense of pain for one) moreso than and/or in addition to metaphysical ones. Thus, the 'torture' Kyuubey inflicted upon Sayaka wasn't anything beyond the pain you could inflict upon normal humans; instead, it is actually Sayaka's normal sense of pain and other feelings/consciousness which have been extracted and somewhat filtered by the Soul Gem.

As we discovered in the previous episode, the Soul Gem has an effective range of a couple hundred meters. Thus, what Kyuubey meant when he said you could 'go farther' for more strength at the expense of slower reaction times was basically that your body's connection to your 'soul' (in your Soul Gem) is stronger at close distances. At further distances, you feel less pain, but you also have less precise control of your body.

Therefore, (I believe) what Sayaka did at the end of this episode was basically to separate her body somewhat from her Soul Gem. In a manner similar to certain drugs or steroids, she gained superhuman pain endurance which let her beat the witch easily. Basically, she pretty much did exactly what Kyuubey suggested and that's why she was laughing giddily and going "You were right, this way it doesn't hurt at all" etc.

And so, in this manner this episode was somewhat about Sayaka being driven to abandon her human limitations. Her own humanity in her pain, despair, or selfishness. Abandoning those for the sake of the 'right thing', to me her transformation was intensely powerful. But it is also very much a sympathetic, fundamentally human depiction.

But I have to ask if she was even remotely in control of her mental faculties at the end of the episode. It would be as you say if she was still, how you say, relatively "sane." If she was driven to surpass her human limitations for the sake of her beliefs then I would assume she does so consciously and still holding on the the beliefs. The Sayaka at the ending for me looked more like someone who, after seeing the face of their mortality, just went beyond the metaphysical breaking point. The Sayaka at the end was no longer the Sayaka who held on to these beliefs but now a shadow of her former self. She abandoned herself to her despair and her fears. She gained power from losing herself rather than gaining herself. She not only abandoned her human limitations, but by surrendering herself to what I can only see as her broken madness, abandoned her humanity as well.

[Elestia]

Back from watching the subs. Anyone else reminded of this when Kyoko was nomming all those apples?

[Candyshark]

Seeing how series getting darker and darker with every episode I start to question what calamity will befall Madoka. Her power should be really something out of this world to overshadow all the suffering built so far.

It is wishful thinking of mine that Madoka had power to purify MGs who turned witches if speculations are true. Who knows maybe Homura was one of them.

[klare]

this is depressing, a feeling that is not expected while watching mahou shoujo show

Kyoko's past, Sayaka's broke down, Madako's sense of helplessness...

the price for miracle is high

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Haak

Just to clarify, when I said it's very hard to watch, I meant it's hard to watch Sayaka suffer because she's a very sweet girl that doesn't deserve all the crap she's getting and what it's turning her into...

Yeah definitely harsh to see her in this state. It was fairly apparent what she was doing when she just kept charging in and it was pretty bad to watch. Can only hope she turns her senses back on since being left in that unable to feel state is pretty dangerous. If she's going to survive will have to work through this. Plus might be a bit soon for her to worry about her friend confessing. Not like there is any evidence that he'd accept it. Of course the key problem is how she now views herself and unable to confess due to that self image.

Got some good development from Kyoko. Certainly a bit of a contradiction not wanting people to suffer like her, but farming witches at the same time. No surprise after her past that she was messed up. Her father definitely seemed like an idiot/seriously unstable. It's no wonder he did end up like that.

Wonder how things will turn out. Sayaka certainly is near invincible with her regeneration and willingness to cut feelings in a fight. Of course it could turn out pretty horrifying at the same time.

[jeroz]

Sayaka is crying.

If it's any other shows she'll pick herself up and move on.
In this show it's like she's holding a revolver in her hand with one bullet in it, while crying.

The slight change in her mentality, most likely of her going more extreme in her actions and lack of self protection, is going to play a huge part in her downfall. Once you stop caring for your body, you no longer care for other people.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I think he meant episode one, when the three girls were eating at the school cafeteria, Sayaka said she could not join the two, and Hitomi asked if she is going again to visit Kamijio-kun.

if that's the case (don't have ep1 with me atm), then there's no sufficient sign that hitomi likes Kamijio.

[Funkatron]

I'm glad that they indirectly give an explanation to Kyoko's eating habits: she eats so much now because before she became a magical girl her family went hungry. The look on her face when Sayaka 'wasted' that apple was priceless. Eating is almost like an obsession to her now.

[Dop]

First there was the shock of realising she's no longer human, and then Hitomi stealing away Kamijo was the last straw.

Given her feelings about her state, she despairs she can never have the one she wished for, so she throws herself into the only thing left for her - hunting and killing witches.

As Kyubey mentioned, she's shut off her pain so she can fight, fight and keep fighting.
But didn't Kyubey say that cutting off your pain blunted your reactions?

Yep, Sayaka has totally lost it, smiling and laughing hysterically as blood runs down her face.
Where do we go from here?

[Seihai]

I don't think she has totally lost it yet. Another bad event or two concerning Hitomi and Kamijou must happen before she does. School Days~ish.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I mean, after all the hype I've read about Urobuchi... this is it? Teenage girls overreacting to having their soul in a gem while their body is seemingly as human and pretty as ever? A love triangle challenge for the current main heroine of this tale? This isn't exactly Night of the Living Dead here.

Shh! You'll bring out the wrath of those that worship at the feet of Gen!

But I'm with you here. I'm being left somewhat underwhelmed. The show is telling us a lot, but not really showing it. For instance:

The show wants to tell us that being an MG is a very heartbreaking thing... but we haven't really had any evidence of that. Sure, they fight and die, but that's no different than every other MG show or superhero anime out there.

They apparently can't walk away, but we're never told why.

We're told that having your soul protected in a gem is somehow supposed to be creepy and bad because you're a zombie... but the girls are shown enjoying the rest of life as they choose, so nothing really changes.

You pretty much summed it up: Teenage girls angsting. If I wanted that, I'd watch Twilight. And maybe if I were a teenage girl, I'd feel something. But since I'm not, the whole thing leaves me scratching my head and going, "Why?"

It feels like there is more going on, and I'd like to learn what else Kyube and Homura know, but stuff like Hitomi coming out of the closet really feel contrived, just to try and force Sayaka into a dark corner. Which was odd, because she had just accepted what she was, and made the decision to continue using her power for others.

In short, we ran out of angst, so we needed a new source; enter Hitomi with a confession and a 1 DAY(!!!!) deadline that wasn't foreshadowed at all. If she really were a friend, I'd think she'd give Sayaka a bit more time than that. But then again, we have W-night coming up, and so this has to be done before then, so we have to shoehorn this angst in now.

Originally Posted by novalysis

She's the chew toy. Some say that Madoka is unfortunate for being in the wrong world. Unfortunately it appears that Sayaka is an even more wrong world.

I have to sadly agree with this. Some may say Sayaka is jumping in, but sometimes you have to do that; especially when people are hurting and dying. Becoming an MG may have been a bit rash, but the reasons behind it were good. And she's gotten over her hotheadedness, apparently, as she no longer feels like attacking Kyoko on sight, but rather will only respond if Kyoko goes after her again; a mature, level headed approach.

The only issue I have here, is the bad writing. After going through the normal stages of grief, Sayaka should have been better. She clearly accepted what she was earlier, and cried over Kamijou. I can see her still being a bit sad, but she has a friend to depend on, so logically speaking, she shouldn't have gone off the deep end.

She's following a decently good idealistic path, but as you and others have noted, she's a chew toy in this series. She'd be fine if she were in a normal MG series, but not here. Madoka could alleviate this, but so far lacks the courage to do so.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Got some good development from Kyoko. Certainly a bit of a contradiction not wanting people to suffer like her, but farming witches at the same time.

It's cynicism, not a contradiction. She understands that Sayaka is at a similar situation with her, but that does not stop her from facing everyday reality.

Originally Posted by jeroz

if that's the case (don't have ep1 with me atm), then there's no sufficient sign that hitomi likes Kamijio.

Hitomi explicitly stated this episode that she will no longer suppress her feelings. Therefore in the first episode (I think) she was trying to supress them, consiously not letting any romantic interpretation to her question, while trying to fish out how Sayaka was feeling or if there was any progress in her relationship with Kamijio.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Shh! You'll bring out the wrath of those that worship at the feet of Gen!

But I'm with you here. I'm being left somewhat underwhelmed. The show is telling us a lot, but not really showing it. For instance:

The show wants to tell us that being an MG is a very heartbreaking thing... but we haven't really had any evidence of that. Sure, they fight and die, but that's no different than every other MG show or superhero anime out there.

They apparently can't walk away, but we're never told why.

We're told that having your soul protected in a gem is somehow supposed to be creepy and bad because you're a zombie... but the girls are shown enjoying the rest of life as they choose, so nothing really changes.

No, it's very different from the standard Magical Girl show. If this were the standard MG, everyone would have planet-busting nukes that could obliterate their opponent, yet after the fight the enemy would become their friend in no time.

In Madoka, the MGs often fight alone, their enemies are inhuman, and they have a much higher chance of dying. When they do die, the public will have no knowledge of the MG or what the enemy is like. The MGs can't even trust their own kind as friends because they have their own agenda and differing ideals, and the one who gave them power does not follow human morals. The only real friend these MGs have is Madoka, who can't really help out since she can't fight. There is little comraderie compared to the typical MG show.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Shh! You'll bring out the wrath of those that worship at the feet of Gen!

But I'm with you here. I'm being left somewhat underwhelmed. The show is telling us a lot, but not really showing it. For instance:

The show wants to tell us that being an MG is a very heartbreaking thing... but we haven't really had any evidence of that. Sure, they fight and die, but that's no different than every other MG show or superhero anime out there.

They apparently can't walk away, but we're never told why.

I have a feeling that there's more to the soul gem than we are aware of. Though the revelation might come as the big twist in the final episodes.
Not to mention that you would think it's hard to put your soul back in, and we don't know much about the zombie's body, if it's physically different from a normal human being or not.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We're told that having your soul protected in a gem is somehow supposed to be creepy and bad because you're a zombie... but the girls are shown enjoying the rest of life as they choose, so nothing really changes.

Just easier to die in unconventional ways and harder to die in conventional ways. Personally I wasn't disgusted by it. Even Kyoko and Sayaka both accepted the fact already so I don't see why you think it's supposed to be creepy and bad. All I see is a set up for more plot twists

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You pretty much summed it up: Teenage girls angsting. If I wanted that, I'd watch Twilight. And maybe if I were a teenage girl, I'd feel something. But since I'm not, the whole thing leaves me scratching my head and going, "Why?"

Teenage angst, with everyone holding a highly lethal weapons~ whoooo
but I agree, maybe it's myself seen too many mental breakdown scenarios, ep7 doesn't click for me.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It feels like there is more going on, and I'd like to learn what else Kyube and Homura know, but stuff like Hitomi coming out of the closet really feel contrived, just to try and force Sayaka into a dark corner. Which was odd, because she had just accepted what she was, and made the decision to continue using her power for others.

that's unless she's still following her hollow sense of justice at that time. You never know if Kyoko's story has any effect on her or not. It's sad to see your hard works not to get recognised by other people. This scenario may have been played in the superhero story for numerous times already, but it's still a good one to create a huge sense of doubt in those people with great responsibilities.
The problem is not "omg she's stealing my boyfriend" but "omg why did I have the idea that I want to abandon her to die". It has been raised on this thread before, but it's her realising that her(and even Mami's) sense of justice might be false is what's hurting her.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

In short, we ran out of angst, so we needed a new source; enter Hitomi with a confession and a 1 DAY(!!!!) deadline that wasn't foreshadowed at all. If she really were a friend, I'd think she'd give Sayaka a bit more time than that. But then again, we have W-night coming up, and so this has to be done before then, so we have to shoehorn this angst in now.

We need Sayaka to fall into the depth of hell first to give madoka a good example of a Mahou Shoujo went wrong from start to finish. I'm still in the camp of "Hitomi is just pressuring Sayaka because she's not being honest with herself" and that her behaviour might be another example of "do the right thing the wrong way" that was mentioned in ep6.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I have to sadly agree with this. Some may say Sayaka is jumping in, but sometimes you have to do that; especially when people are hurting and dying. Becoming an MG may have been a bit rash, but the reasons behind it were good. And she's gotten over her hotheadedness, apparently, as she no longer feels like attacking Kyoko on sight, but rather will only respond if Kyoko goes after her again; a mature, level headed approach.

The only issue I have here, is the bad writing. After going through the normal stages of grief, Sayaka should have been better. She clearly accepted what she was earlier, and cried over Kamijou. I can see her still being a bit sad, but she has a friend to depend on, so logically speaking, she shouldn't have gone off the deep end.

She's following a decently good idealistic path, but as you and others have noted, she's a chew toy in this series. She'd be fine if she were in a normal MG series, but not here. Madoka could alleviate this, but so far lacks the courage to do so.

twice sayaka met with kyoko earlier, both has been provoked by kyoko's words. If kyoko kept her mouth shut or just saying something sensible like in this ep I doubt Sayaka would bother to attack her at all.

The battle with the witch just solidifies her false understanding that she's no longer human. It's not something that's logical, and she's just having a huge crying session anyway. It's still up in the air whether that she's going to go all crazy or not. Her actions might be more extreme than before in the future, but call her fallen is a bit too soon at the moment.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No, it's very different from the standard Magical Girl show. If this were the standard MG, everyone would have planet-busting nukes that could obliterate their opponent, yet after the fight the enemy would become their friend in no time.

In Madoka, the MGs often fight alone, their enemies are inhuman, and they have a much higher chance of dying. When they do die, the public will have no knowledge of the MG or what the enemy is like. The MGs can't even trust their own kind as friends because they have their own agenda and differing ideals, and the one who gave them power does not follow human morals. The only real friend these MGs have is Madoka, who can't really help out since she can't fight. There is little comraderie compared to the typical MG show.

To expand upon this good post here, it's funny how the people complaining that this hasn't been dark enough tend to be fans of the Nanoha franchise.

This anime has been a brilliant deconstruction so far. It has spun the magical girl concept into a cynical world, something that the Nanoha franchise fails quite epically at. Girls are not just going around angsty either. They're shown to be having to constantly fight for their lives, and put themselves in dangerous situation. They're shown to not all get along so well and be buddy buddy with each other. Our mascot character is a cruel calculating one.

I'm not sure what you guys want. People dorpping dead every episode? Vomit and blood everywhere? Limbs getting chopped off? Friends killing each other? A deconstruction has to make sense to be a deconstruction you know .

Originally Posted by Mentar

Congrats to make it through this tl;dr wall of text. This is what I've been mulling over for a while. What do you think?

Garbage? This is an example of grotesque over-analyzation.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

They apparently can't walk away, but we're never told why.

We were, indirectly. Maintaining control over the body from the Soul Gem takes magic, it has to. And like the magic they use while fighting, the darkness will have to be cleansed from the Gem eventually.

If she really were a friend, I'd think she'd give Sayaka a bit more time than that.

Considering that Sayaka's known Kyosuke since childhood, been with him so often during his hospitalization, Hitomi's probably figured she's wasted enough time dancing around the subject.

The only issue I have here, is the bad writing. After going through the normal stages of grief, Sayaka should have been better.

What makes you think she's through the stages already? Just because she says so? She may have stopped shedding tears over him, but she hasn't shown that she's really let go of him yet.