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epyon96 · 2007-02-08, 10:08

Just food for thought.

Ichigo's hollow side has never really shown himself to harm the ones ichigo cares about. It is merely just a more violent and cruel ichigo when fighting enemies.

So do you think that Ichigo is being just stupid for not letting it just come out naturally in his fight against Yami? or Grimmjaw in the future? Why even bother training when the power and abilities to use it already lie within him (besides obvious shonen reasons)?

astrallionheart · 2007-02-08, 10:29

I think its a result of how Ichigo has become a powerful Shinigami.

He never had the time to develop a skills-based fighting style or a been able to study kido-based combat in the Shinigami academy. He's basically just pushed his body to the limit increasing his tolerance for pain as well as increasing his strength and explosiveness. If another, he fights more like a hollow than a Shinigami.

It's his stubbornness that has gotten him this far; fighting more skilled opponents (Renji comes to mind) and more powerful opponents (Zaraki) and versatile casters (Byakuya). The only reason he's survived thus far is his stubbornness for accepting pain in order to be stronger.

ShadowClone · 2007-02-08, 11:43

It is Ichigo's will and determination, which may also be called "stubborness", which powers his fighting style. This was borne from Urahara's "training" when releasing "Gatsuga Tenshou", i.e. the "mindset" when attacking ("I will cut you") and defending ("You will not hit me") etc.

Zu Ra · 2007-02-08, 15:41

Unfortunately Ichi hasnt sufficiently powered up in season 2 . Either he needs attitude adjustment or a massive power up . If Ichi continues to fight his battles with Hichigo , Hichigo may take over completly . Unlike Zangetsu Ichi and Hichigo's relationship is based on the King and the Horse .

astrallionheart · 2007-02-10, 08:44

One thing that always bothered me about the theory of the supposed hollow that manifested itself during Urahara Kisuke's trial that protects Ichigo was that before that, during Ichigo's original battle with Renji, he was in a similar situation in as with his fights with Kenpachi/Byakuya--after being cut profusely, he suddenly gets up, his bleeding stops, and says "I dunno where this power comes from, but it feels good!" and proceeds to lay the smack down on Renji with the usual crazy-eyed expression that you usually saw his hollow side exhibit (though his spree is ended by Byakuya).

So, it seems like Ichigo has always had a well to draw from that helps him in dire circumstances. I wonder if it was just a plot hole or if the hollow side had always been with him (or something else?)--as he didn't have Zangetsu at the time, so something is fishy about the deus ex machina device that was used then and there.

Scep · 2007-02-10, 09:09

@epyon

you seem to be seeing it the wrong way. Letting hollow ichigo come out means taking over himself. Besides obvious reasons that he wouldnt have any control of himself anymore, that also means that ogichi can choose at his own choice who to kill - including his friends.

epyon96 · 2007-02-10, 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sceptileex

@epyon

you seem to be seeing it the wrong way. Letting hollow ichigo come out means taking over himself. Besides obvious reasons that he wouldnt have any control of himself anymore, that also means that ogichi can choose at his own choice who to kill - including his friends.

The point is, Hollow Ichigo has never shown any inclination to be exactly evil. So far, the only evidence we have is that he is far more violent to Ichigo's enemies.

Zek · 2007-02-10, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by epyon96

Just food for thought.

Ichigo's hollow side has never really shown himself to harm the ones ichigo cares about. It is merely just a more violent and cruel ichigo when fighting enemies.

So do you think that Ichigo is being just stupid for not letting it just come out naturally in his fight against Yami? or Grimmjaw in the future? Why even bother training when the power and abilities to use it already lie within him (besides obvious shonen reasons)?

Two things:

1.) Hichigo does not care about Ichigo's friends. If he ever took over completely, he would probably kill them without hesitation just for the fun of fighting. The reason he never hurt them is because he's never been out in their presence.

2.) After Byakuya's fight, Ichigo understood that the hollow was not on his side. It was trying to consume him. If he relied on its power back when it was still uncontrollable, it would have taken over his soul in no time. He held it back because he didn't want to lose himself.

He's not afraid to use it anymore though now that he's a Vaizard. He uses it quite willingly in his Grimmjow rematch. The only reason he was stubborn in his last fight is because he didn't want to admit just how unprepared he was to fight Espada, but now that he's realized that he can't afford to mess around anymore, he's not going to hesitate again. I don't think he'll have any hangups about killing any of Aizen's crew, like he did with Byakuya.

Kaka · 2007-02-10, 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by epyon96

The point is, Hollow Ichigo has never shown any inclination to be exactly evil. So far, the only evidence we have is that he is far more violent to Ichigo's enemies.

but he has showed that he wanna take over Ichigo's body, is that not evil enough?

Zu Ra · 2007-02-10, 22:59

Hichigo has bloodlust his ownly pleasure is causing pain . Ichigo doesnt have bloodlust or killer instinct , he is more of a caring person . Also Hichigo doesnt power up using Reatsu he is on a diffrent level beacaue of these things , if Hichigo takes over then will be no humanity left in Ichigo

Scep · 2007-02-11, 04:49

That body was his from the start. That argument is the same as saying that Iraq is evil for not letting USA conquer it.

Scep · 2007-02-11, 05:52

No, they are not the same. Ichigo is the master. Zangetsu and ogihci are his sources of powers, not his soul!! If ichigo never became a shinigami, ogihci would never have appeared.

Ichimaru · 2007-02-11, 05:53

yes he is stubborn when he fights whether ichi/hichi, dude is just overconfident and downplays his opponents, if he wasnt the main character, he will be like everyone else.

call it arrogrant....

Enerccio · 2007-02-12, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Small One

They are a part of his soul!
They were always there, but usually suppressed. If Ichigo didn't become a Shinigami, they would have still been there influencing him, just not this obvious.
It was said a few times, that the Zanpakutou is part of the user's soul; don't just ignore facts, if you don't like them.

true true
it was said in manga and anime too.

Hichigo gives damn **** about friends - why he would kill them? He only wants to became master not murderer. Why they do not cooperate? Like Ichigo in normal world (in school etc) and when they will be fighting, Hichigo could take lead (and crush enemies)

2007-02-08, 10:08	Link #1
epyon96 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004	[Manga] Is Ichigo unreasonably stubborn when he fights Just food for thought. Ichigo's hollow side has never really shown himself to harm the ones ichigo cares about. It is merely just a more violent and cruel ichigo when fighting enemies. So do you think that Ichigo is being just stupid for not letting it just come out naturally in his fight against Yami? or Grimmjaw in the future? Why even bother training when the power and abilities to use it already lie within him (besides obvious shonen reasons)? __________________ "Draw the line that defines being human through reason, not emotion," Envy Epyon

2007-02-08, 15:41	Link #4
Zu Ra ✖ ǝʇ ɯıqnɾl ☆ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mortuary : D	Unfortunately Ichi hasnt sufficiently powered up in season 2 . Either he needs attitude adjustment or a massive power up . If Ichi continues to fight his battles with Hichigo , Hichigo may take over completly . Unlike Zangetsu Ichi and Hichigo's relationship is based on the King and the Horse . __________________

2007-02-10, 22:59	Link #10
Zu Ra ✖ ǝʇ ɯıqnɾl ☆ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mortuary : D	Hichigo has bloodlust his ownly pleasure is causing pain . Ichigo doesnt have bloodlust or killer instinct , he is more of a caring person . Also Hichigo doesnt power up using Reatsu he is on a diffrent level beacaue of these things , if Hichigo takes over then will be no humanity left in Ichigo __________________

2007-02-08, 10:29	Link #2
astrallionheart Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	I think its a result of how Ichigo has become a powerful Shinigami. He never had the time to develop a skills-based fighting style or a been able to study kido-based combat in the Shinigami academy. He's basically just pushed his body to the limit increasing his tolerance for pain as well as increasing his strength and explosiveness. If another, he fights more like a hollow than a Shinigami. It's his stubbornness that has gotten him this far; fighting more skilled opponents (Renji comes to mind) and more powerful opponents (Zaraki) and versatile casters (Byakuya). The only reason he's survived thus far is his stubbornness for accepting pain in order to be stronger.

2007-02-08, 11:43	Link #3
ShadowClone Genin Featherweight Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Konoha Boxing Gym (KBG)	It is Ichigo's will and determination, which may also be called "stubborness", which powers his fighting style. This was borne from Urahara's "training" when releasing "Gatsuga Tenshou", i.e. the "mindset" when attacking ("I will cut you") and defending ("You will not hit me") etc.

2007-02-10, 08:44	Link #5
astrallionheart Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	One thing that always bothered me about the theory of the supposed hollow that manifested itself during Urahara Kisuke's trial that protects Ichigo was that before that, during Ichigo's original battle with Renji, he was in a similar situation in as with his fights with Kenpachi/Byakuya--after being cut profusely, he suddenly gets up, his bleeding stops, and says "I dunno where this power comes from, but it feels good!" and proceeds to lay the smack down on Renji with the usual crazy-eyed expression that you usually saw his hollow side exhibit (though his spree is ended by Byakuya). So, it seems like Ichigo has always had a well to draw from that helps him in dire circumstances. I wonder if it was just a plot hole or if the hollow side had always been with him (or something else?)--as he didn't have Zangetsu at the time, so something is fishy about the deus ex machina device that was used then and there.

2007-02-10, 09:09	Link #6
Scep commands you to...! Artist Join Date: Apr 2006	@epyon you seem to be seeing it the wrong way. Letting hollow ichigo come out means taking over himself. Besides obvious reasons that he wouldnt have any control of himself anymore, that also means that ogichi can choose at his own choice who to kill - including his friends.

2007-02-11, 04:49	Link #11
Scep commands you to...! Artist Join Date: Apr 2006	That body was his from the start. That argument is the same as saying that Iraq is evil for not letting USA conquer it.

2007-02-11, 05:52	Link #12
Scep commands you to...! Artist Join Date: Apr 2006	No, they are not the same. Ichigo is the master. Zangetsu and ogihci are his sources of powers, not his soul!! If ichigo never became a shinigami, ogihci would never have appeared.

2007-02-11, 05:53	Link #13
Ichimaru Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	yes he is stubborn when he fights whether ichi/hichi, dude is just overconfident and downplays his opponents, if he wasnt the main character, he will be like everyone else. call it arrogrant....