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Old 2011-11-10, 01:17   Link #1
asaqe
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In the last couple of months, the reveal of Gundam Age and it's heavy influence by Inazuma Eleven and other works by Level-5 have left some Gundam diehards questioning the future of Gundam. I was one of the few who advocated a darker Gundam series. Taking SEED's attempts at complete bleakness without having Lacus to save the day with her suddenly acquired leadership and pacifism for example as Kira and Athrun is forced to wade through what is an ocean of blood and misery that is the Blood Valentine War.

What I wanted was a Gundam series that takes the best from the trend of Dark Science Fiction that ruled the airwaves and consoles. Resistance, NBSG, Halo and countless other dark science fiction that had dominated the early 2000s with the cynical backgrounds, a sense of true despair and morally questionable heroes who does not become some sort of mythological hero who saves the galaxy but merely delays it's end. Throughout the last two years, I have made ideas on how to give Gundam a touch of darkness that Tomino and Fukuda at some points failed to deliver. Unlike most other people, I don't plan to shake the foundations of gundam by removing favorite UC staples and also maintain Gundam's anti war message in a manner that does not result in pacifism but rather the weight of war crushing everyone.

So what can themes can make Gundam darker and what wouldn't work?



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Last edited by asaqe; 2011-11-12 at 13:08.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:20   Link #2
monster
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Despite a couple of mobile suits surviving "unscratched" at the end of SEED Destiny, the series actually ended with the realization that nothing have really been resolved. At the end of the day, the main character is left with the realization that war might just be an inescapable consequence of human existence. The only thing he could do is to resign himself to that fact and be willing to fight to protect his loved ones if another war were to occur. Another thing is that the main character isn't really shown as morally unquestionable hero. Instead, he is presented as just a person who tries to make the best of his situation. And sometimes, his choices would have negative consequences in others. And let's be honest here, there is no pacifism in either of the two Cosmic Era series.

So, in a way, Gundam has already had a touch of "dark" in it. But we still have to acknowledge that Gundam series are designed to sell models and other merchandise aside from the series itself, not to mention that the target audience seems to be young people (maybe kids, maybe teens and young adults). That's not something that either BSG or Halo had to deal with (as far as I know).
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:25   Link #3
JC...
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Old 2011-11-12, 20:11   Link #4
asaqe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Despite a couple of mobile suits surviving "unscratched" at the end of SEED Destiny, the series actually ended with the realization that nothing have really been resolved. At the end of the day, the main character is left with the realization that war might just be an inescapable consequence of human existence. The only thing he could do is to resign himself to that fact and be willing to fight to protect his loved ones if another war were to occur. Another thing is that the main character isn't really shown as morally unquestionable hero. Instead, he is presented as just a person who tries to make the best of his situation. And sometimes, his choices would have negative consequences in others. And let's be honest here, there is no pacifism in either of the two Cosmic Era series.

So, in a way, Gundam has already had a touch of "dark" in it. But we still have to acknowledge that Gundam series are designed to sell models and other merchandise aside from the series itself, not to mention that the target audience seems to be young people (maybe kids, maybe teens and young adults). That's not something that either BSG or Halo had to deal with (as far as I know).
Well Halo had to sell games and the best way to do it is hook people with a dark moody trilogy with just as equally dark side stories. Gundam just need to maintain it's current sales pitch but instead of using a rather light (by our standards) background. Try to make it as dark and uncomprising as possible without making the viewers dislike it.

This is why NBSG caught on, it was a stark contrast to previous trends in science fiction. The director knew that it's viewers are flawed beings and it was better to create a cast of flawed heroes than to create characters whom one looked up to. This has a bit of significance to what happened during the noughties

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My name is Jonathan Danson, and I'm here to set you free. Free from a vision of an antiseptic future filled with... with heroes and heroines who are always steadfast and well-adjusted and altruistic. Like most of you, I grew up with "Astro Quest." Every Thursday night my dad would gather the family around our TV to watch the latest episode. I loved it! But the older I got, the more the mythology began to eat away at my soul. I couldn't measure up to the brave crew of that perfect ship. I wasn't handsome, courageous and strong, I was weak, petty, self-destructive and I hated myself for it. But then, one night it hit me like a bolt of lightning. I looked around the bar at the other frightened, sad people and I said to myself "Do you see an Artemus Bishop here? Do you see one at work?" People, look around you! Do you see an Artemus Bishop anywhere? Of course not, because he's a fictional construct, a phantom who whispers "You are not enough!" Well, I am here to show you who we really are. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you "Astro Quest Redux!"
The same can be said with Gundam, try to cater to the fanbase who looks not for a hero but for someone they can relate to as most feel that they are not heroic but rather self serving and cynical.
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Old 2011-11-13, 05:37   Link #5
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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
The same can be said with Gundam, try to cater to the fanbase who looks not for a hero but for someone they can relate to as most feel that they are not heroic but rather self serving and cynical.
Maybe for an OVA or a movie, but I'm not sure if the people who make Gundam would see that particular fanbase to be large enough in this day and age to warrant a year-long series. And even for those people who do want to relate to the character, I'm sure that some of them would also like to see that character improve. Self-serving and cynical characters can also be heroic. So again, in that sense, I think that Gundam is already not too far off to what you're saying in terms of the characters.
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Old 2011-11-14, 00:33   Link #6
asaqe
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Maybe for an OVA or a movie, but I'm not sure if the people who make Gundam would see that particular fanbase to be large enough in this day and age to warrant a year-long series. And even for those people who do want to relate to the character, I'm sure that some of them would also like to see that character improve. Self-serving and cynical characters can also be heroic. So again, in that sense, I think that Gundam is already not too far off to what you're saying in terms of the characters.
Well I just don't want another hero who desires a world of peace or to protect his loved ones. One game I knew of that made you feel like a villain was Armored Core 4.

Spoiler for Spoilers for AC4:


A Gundam series about one's loss of humanity will be very effective story.
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Old 2011-11-14, 01:45   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
Well I just don't want another hero who desires a world of peace or to protect his loved ones. One game I knew of that made you feel like a villain was Armored Core 4.

Spoiler for Spoilers for AC4:


A Gundam series about one's loss of humanity will be very effective story.
Yeah no.

Spoiler for Truth:


If you're going to use examples, get the facts straight first.
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Old 2011-11-15, 05:55   Link #8
rakusukira
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i kinda don't recall a Gundam series that is not "dark"

Spoiler for T_T€:


a war between two species (humanxhuman cause ALIENS, i believe, do not belong in GUNDAM. sorry, that's just how I look at it) in Gundam Seed was very refreshing. i kinda liked how they delivered it.
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Old 2011-11-15, 08:28   Link #9
Znozzy
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if anything, the alien part of AGE and the 00 movie was refreshing for the Gundam metaseries.

Seed if anything was a rehash of old series, with the same face on every character

Seed had potential, i'll give you that, i really liked it until Kira got into the Freedom.
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Old 2011-11-15, 09:36   Link #10
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Gundam does not need more darkness, but I would ask for less dissonance between the extrem off-screen/background body count/destruction and what happened on-screen.
For instance, the death of much of humanity during the OYW should have a much greater impact on the survivors.
Or the April Fool's Crisis and the later Break the World in CE, the former was much worse than the destruction of Junius 7 yet was mentioned much less, the latter caused more death and destruction than even the worst pre-CE war in human history (going by what was mentioned in the first Stargazer episode) and it was not acknowledged as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
At the end of the day, the main character is left with the realization that war might just be an inescapable consequence of human existence. The only thing he could do is to resign himself to that fact and be willing to fight to protect his loved ones if another war were to occur.
How about less pessimism and more winning the peace, Kira?
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Old 2011-11-15, 20:48   Link #11
monster
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Seed if anything was a rehash of old series, with the same face on every character

Seed had potential, i'll give you that, i really liked it until Kira got into the Freedom.
It's funny you said that since people usually said that the latter half of the series (that's when Kira got into the Freedom) is when SEED became its own series, and not just a rehash of MSG.
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How about less pessimism and more winning the peace, Kira?
I was talking about Shinn.
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Old 2011-11-16, 17:16   Link #12
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sorry but i hard to understand OP post

basically you want "western" gundam
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Old 2011-11-16, 19:42   Link #13
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How about take Gundam outside of the Earthsphere and have it involve different planets? Go for a Votoms/Mechwarrior/WH40K universe setting?
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Old 2011-11-16, 23:36   Link #14
asaqe
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sorry but i hard to understand OP post

basically you want "western" gundam
What I want is the "western" tropes and literary devices on war and desperate fights for survival applied to Gundam. A protagonist who "falls" so to speak, where he cannot and is not interested in peace. Only in death does the misery end
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Old 2011-11-17, 07:17   Link #15
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What I want is the "western" tropes and literary devices on war and desperate fights for survival applied to Gundam. A protagonist who "falls" so to speak, where he cannot and is not interested in peace. Only in death does the misery end
wasn't Setsuna like that?
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Old 2011-11-17, 11:59   Link #16
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Setsuna was the exact opposite. He wanted peace but believed he could only fight for it.
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Old 2011-11-18, 11:31   Link #17
jonli
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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
What I want is the "western" tropes and literary devices on war and desperate fights for survival applied to Gundam. A protagonist who "falls" so to speak, where he cannot and is not interested in peace. Only in death does the misery end
Pretty depressing but I can see that turning out to be epic. Basically he can end up becoming the villain of the story.

The general theme of Gundam is anti-war (except G Gundam where fighting is a form of communication and respect in martial arts), but they never really discuss about what war really serves as a function in our society. War served to move things a lot further in many ways in the real world. It helped the advances in communication in the forms of technology and cultural clash. It served an important role in getting us to where we are today, with it's fair share of side effects. Gundam would be the perfect franchise to explore that, they usually do this by exploring how horrible it has effected average citizens during the war. But in reality most of war's effects come into play after the end of the war.
Setsuna's reason for fighting is rather flawed and forced. It also doesn't help that he ends up with a super Gundam that probably rivals Turn A in strength but is only used to be an advanced watsapp.

They still have ways to go... if the rumors are true about time-traveling in AGE and humanity's desperation, they can explore survival themes (liek Battlestar Galactica).
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Old 2011-11-18, 12:44   Link #18
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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
What I want is the "western" tropes and literary devices on war and desperate fights for survival applied to Gundam. A protagonist who "falls" so to speak, where he cannot and is not interested in peace. Only in death does the misery end
basically "i dont care about peace with other, i just want to kill my enemy" type of story.

that can be hard because

1) you need one single evil entity that is NON human which mean alien or monster. pretty sure most of us dont like it

2) cultural background. because Japan lose WW2. what in their mind now is peace.

but it can be interested if this happens thought.

i dunno but i have feeling if we ask tomino to make new gundam he might be do this (with his signature Kill em all ending of course lol)
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Old 2011-11-18, 23:06   Link #19
asaqe
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It shouldn't be hard to express it in a different manner. Instead of using rawr war is bad, make the theme tackle it in a "why do good people die while evil people live?"
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Old 2011-11-19, 02:53   Link #20
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It shouldn't be hard to express it in a different manner. Instead of using rawr war is bad, make the theme tackle it in a "why do good people die while evil people live?"
but how this "evil people"

rarely gundam ever be black vs white. there is always grey side. plus as i mention in point one. most of it is human vs human.

there is always time where MC say "what have i done", "isn't were same human" etc
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