Learning Japanese

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by endarion88

hum ok i need some advice now, i started study with genki integrated course in elementary japanese and after that i studied with "an integrated approach to intermediate japanese" (was not as clear as genki though) now what should i do to go on from here? specialy kanji wise, for now i'm tring to read warious manga then confront my own translation whit those of scanlation groups but is not helping me much, specialy in memorizing kanji, any suggestion? i never wanted a teacher in my life more than now T_T

My suggestions:

1) Focus on shonen or shoujo manga since these have furigana next to every kanji.

2) Use Translation Aggregator to look up words you don't understand. It's so much easier than trying to figure out radicals.

3) Use Anki or a similar flashcard program. But instead of relying on a pre-made deck, make your own from all the words you come across that you don't understand.

Originally Posted by roxybudgy

Really? My first language is Mandarin, although I consider English to be my native language. I've spent some time learning French, Japanese, Thai, German and Croatian. If anything, Japanese is amongst one of the easiest languages to learn.

Both the US State Department and Department of Defense classify languages based upon how long it takes for someone to master it. Japanese is not only in the most difficult category on both lists, but the State Department puts an asterisk next to it to indicate it's more difficult than the other languages in the same category. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the most difficult language -- there maybe some obscure language in Africa or the South Pacific that's more difficult but they don't have a course for it -- but it's certainly among the hardest.

Of course that's based upon native English speakers who didn't grow up with a second language beyond maybe high school French or Spanish. Someone who can read Mandarin has a major advantage in that you already have a head start on learning kanji.

[roxybudgy]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Both the US State Department and Department of Defense classify languages based upon how long it takes for someone to master it. Japanese is not only in the most difficult category on both lists, but the State Department puts an asterisk next to it to indicate it's more difficult than the other languages in the same category.

This is interesting, I might need to look into this more. I still believe that in terms of spoken communication, Japanese is so much easier compared to any of the European languages I have attempted to learn.

My guess is that the fact that the writing system is so very different to latin alphabet based languages, it is deemed difficult to master. I'd be curious to see how Japanese is ranked in difficulty if you judged it solely on verbal communication.

Anecdotally speaking, I feel that there are more competent J>E fansub translators as opposed to competent J>E scanlation translators. When I used to be active in the scanlation scene, many translators specifically requested projects that contained furigana, and I suspect it is because they are weak at kanji.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Of course that's based upon native English speakers who didn't grow up with a second language beyond maybe high school French or Spanish. Someone who can read Mandarin has a major advantage in that you already have a head start on learning kanji.

Frankly, in terms of learning Japanese, I never found my background in Mandarin to be of any help besides having similar meanings in reading/writing kanji. Grammatically speaking, I can't find much, if any, similarity between Chinese and Japanese.

Edit: after some Googling around, I did find the Foreign Services Institute's ranking of language learning difficulty. Most of the commentary I have read indicates that Japanese earned it's ranking because of the writing system, same for Chinese. I also found it curious that French is deemed "easier" than German, because in my experience, German grammar is closer to English than French is to English, but I could be biased as I spent more effort learning German (love Inspector Rex) than I did learning French.

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/02/22/why...-theyre-wrong/

[Magin]

The toughest part for learning Japanese is easily the grammar. Especially since English and the Romantic/latin-based languages are subject-verb-object (and I find it interesting that Chinese is practically the same way), whereas Japanese is subject-object-verb. Which tends to get really complicated in sentences.

Then there's the kanji, which is of course the other problem with Japanese. Although, my own personal biggest gripe with kanji, which may or may not apply to everyone else, is the multiple readings. Although I'm familiar with the trick of "if it's a solo kanji, it's most likely one reading whereas two or more kanji next to each other is usually the other", it's remembering the two different readings in the first place. Which was something that actually made Chinese a bit easier- most of the characters I learned only had one reading, but keep in mind I only took three semesters of Chinese.

Otherwise, my current problem is that I've hit a landing, so to speak- the colleges in my area only offer up to four semesters of Japanese, all of which I've taken. I know I need to keep pushing to learn more, but it's finding something to start that initial push.

[TwilightsCall]

The toughest part for learning Japanese is easily the grammar. Especially since English and the Romantic/latin-based languages are subject-verb-object (and I find it interesting that Chinese is practically the same way), whereas Japanese is subject-object-verb. Which tends to get really complicated in sentences.

I don't know, I never found the grammar of Japanese to be all that difficult. It's just like vocabulary, all it takes is memorizing patterns. If you have someone/something that can explain those patterns to you, it's a fairly straightforward process.

I'm really with roxy on this one, as someone who has experienced French, German, and Japanese learning in school (and as an English native), I would definitely say Japanese has been the easiest of the three. Kanji is a completely different beast, but I can't imagine it being that much more difficult than say...learning to spell in English. Sure it might be harder to learn to read kanji, but as with everything in language learning, it's not really difficult, it just takes a lot of time.

[roxybudgy]

Originally Posted by Magin

Especially since English and the Romantic/latin-based languages are subject-verb-object (and I find it interesting that Chinese is practically the same way), whereas Japanese is subject-object-verb. Which tends to get really complicated in sentences.

I know what you mean, but I've never thought of this as "difficult". Once you know the "formula", the rest comes quite easy. To me, it's like learning long division after spending most of my life using short division. In primary school, I always did my division the short way and it has always worked out, whereas long division was an alien concept that I just couldn't figure out. Of course, I know better now and understand both ways of doing division.

Like when I was learning German, it took a little while to sink in that v="f", w="v", s="z", tsch="ch", then when I tried Croatian, I started muddling English and German, and had to relearn how to read all over again. Again, once you have the basics down, the rest comes much more easily.

I remember my parents constantly correcting my brother and sisters (whom were born and raised in Australia, whereas I was born and raised in Malaysia) when they ask to do something in Chinese they say "ke yi wo...?" (lit: can I...?) when the correct Chinese syntax is "wo ke yi...?" (lit: I can...). Things like this are not particularly difficult to get over and master.

Originally Posted by Magin

I know I need to keep pushing to learn more, but it's finding something to start that initial push.

I can relate to this too. After finishing a 1 year course on Japanese after high school and doing JLPT 3 (now known as N4), I kept telling myself that I'll attempt the next level, but never really found the drive to focus on it seriously. I think watching anime is the only thing stopping all my knowledge of Japanese from fading away.

[Magin]

I probably should be a bit more specific with the grammar, since the difficulty lies in something more complex than just the order, or at least from my own personal experience. One, as I've heard from others, hearing spoken Japanese even with knowing the grammar can get quite difficult. However, what starts to throw me is when you have multiple verbs in one sentence. Granted, part of my own problem is sometimes lack of vocabulary, but when I hit something like "I'm going shopping tomorrow to buy a present for [insert name here], do you want to join me?"... even though I know a good majority of the words there, I still have a difficult time piecing it together. Not to mention that Japanese tends to drop a lot of words, and so words that would be there in English are missing is the Japanese sentence. It seems like that would make it easier, but when (in my case) English is my first and native language, you still want to do the direct translation with all the nuances.

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by roxybudgy

Grammar is also relatively simple in Japanese, as opposed to European languages with their genders, declension, conjugation, exceptions, etc. In comparison, Japanese has far fewer exceptions to memorise.

Firstly, don't mean to sound rude but it's spelt "memorize" and it's not cause I am a grammar Nazi, just saw the red lines over "memorise" a lot and it was starting to become irritating to my eye No offense, of course.

Secondly, I don't think grammar is simple at all! From what I have heard, they switch around lots of words and the punctuation looks really complex. And, the symbols; that would be the hardest part about it. I hear if you have one symbol, it could either mean a simple sound (speaking of, their alphabet is also pretty confusing) or even a single word; and if you put another symbol next to it, it forms a new word; so on and so on, it starts to become really confusing to me and it sucks because I really want to learn it too.

Mostly because I own lots and lots of games where Japanese-reading is required, and also I have noticed there are more anime with very good stories and in a genre I enjoy, but are only in Japanese.

But, outside the most common reasons, I suppose I would want to learn it so whenever something is Japanese-exclusive, but it's something I enjoy, I know it won't be something I'll have to look back at and sadly scoff off, I can just simply: enjoy it you know what I mean?

[roxybudgy]

Originally Posted by Notshane

Firstly, don't mean to sound rude but it's spelt "memorize" and it's not cause I am a grammar Nazi, just saw the red lines over "memorise" a lot and it was starting to become irritating to my eye No offense, of course.

None taken As a bit of a grammar/spelling pedant myself, I adhere to Australian/British spelling. To be honest, my hand kept typing "memories" and I had to keep going back to change it to "memorise"

But yeah, reading/writing would definitely be the hardest aspect of fully mastering Japanese for a English native. Beginning Japanese, because hiragana and katakana are loosely based on Chinese characters, I was pretty much starting from scratch like everyone else in the class when it came to learning these. We used mnemonics as a learning aid, such as "sa" supposedly looks like a SAmurai sword making a cut, or "chi" looks like one of those round CHEEses with the little flag sticking in it, or "te" resembles a broken TEnnis racquet. The mnemonics for katakana didn't really fit as well, so I struggled with that, I still have some trouble with katakana, which is why it drives me nuts when some of the manga set in "feudal era" for some reason sometimes uses katakana instead of hiragana in their dialogues.

[Ghiest Cid]

What I use in studying and remembering hiragana/katakana/kanji are quiz/memory games in android. There is quite a number of them

[erneiz_hyde]

btw about kanji, has any of you experienced that moment in reading a japanese sentence that you know what it means but don't know/forget how to read? In extention, even though I know zilch about Chinese, I can sometimes work out what a sentence means even though I don't know how to read it because they share some characters.

[roxybudgy]

With a background in Chinese, it happens all the time Sometimes in reverse too, as in I don't know how to read something in Chinese, but I know what it means from Japanese.

Chinese characters/kanji may look like a bunch of random lines at first glance, but there is indeed a pattern to it. It could be that you have subconsciously picked up on this pattern.

For example, I used this site to look up kanji that can be read as "rin", and grouping them according to shared 'characters'...

侖 倫 淪 棆 綸 輪

林 淋 菻 琳 痳 罧 醂 霖

稟 凛 廩 懍

[Magin]

That's actually my biggest problem- I see multiple kanji next to each other, and I know what one or two of them mean on their own... but not in the context of the sentence itself.

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by roxybudgy

Reading/writing would definitely be the hardest aspect of fully mastering Japanese for a English native. Beginning Japanese, because hiragana and katakana are loosely based on Chinese characters, I was pretty much starting from scratch like everyone else in the class when it came to learning these. We used mnemonics as a learning aid, such as "sa" supposedly looks like a SAmurai sword making a cut, or "chi" looks like one of those round CHEEses with the little flag sticking in it, or "te" resembles a broken TEnnis racquet. The mnemonics for katakana didn't really fit as well, so I struggled with that, I still have some trouble with katakana, which is why it drives me nuts when some of the manga set in "feudal era" for some reason sometimes uses katakana instead of hiragana in their dialogues.

And the thing is I am still not used to the whole "symbols" idea yet; especially because of the changing patterns tidbit where one symbol can mean a simple letter (or two-letter in Japan's case) or a single word, then combining another symbol with it can make it mean something completely new.

Then there's the Katagana, Hiragana; like so many different styles of symbols too. I just thought it was Kanji and nothing more, so I am unaware on which one of these symbols I should memorize if my aim is for better understanding of anime/video games, or simple understanding of Japanese culture in general.

I hear it's thanks to Rōmaji, basically Japanese in English, that makes the whole process a lot easier. However, the whole "te" "chi" like, the Japanese alphabet in general, just looks so foreign; like a concept that my mind just can't comprehend for some reason. Maybe because I fear they have a really, really long alphabet because of the linking of more letters.

So that leaves my mind to openly assume there could be a hundred different letters. And combining that with the Kanji that can simply mean a single word, the linking thing where that word is now different and so on, anyone would want to give up on Japanese the moment they began because it sounds like you could put in years of work and still not have enough knowledge to even understand a Japanese sentence, or single Kanji.

[Qikz]

Originally Posted by Magin

That's actually my biggest problem- I see multiple kanji next to each other, and I know what one or two of them mean on their own... but not in the context of the sentence itself.

It's weird but I've been learning for four years now and I'm the opposite. I self taught myself mainly to learn words rather than the individual Kanji which will probably hurt myself longer down the line if I ever need to take the JLPT, but I know Kanji if they're in words and I can work out what things say due to context and knowing the Kanji setup in words, but individual kanji I struggle with sometimes and don't get me started on names.

[roxybudgy]

Originally Posted by Notshane

so I am unaware on which one of these symbols I should memorize if my aim is for better understanding of anime/video games, or simple understanding of Japanese culture in general.

If you search for JLPT Kanji lists, these should give you a rough guide on what kanji to first focus on. In high school, we used the book "A Guide To Reading and Writing Japanese" which lists 800 essential kanji characters that Japanese natives are required to know by the time they finish grade 6, and it is ordered according to grade (as in they start with kanji required for grade 1, then grade 2, etc...). The book lists the different readings, shows you the stroke order for writing the character, and includes examples of word combinations.

Originally Posted by Notshane

I hear it's thanks to Rōmaji, basically Japanese in English, that makes the whole process a lot easier.

Attempting to learn Thai gave me a whole new appreciation for the blessing that is romaji. To be exact, the fact that Japanese pronunciation is easily represented by the latin alphabet and has less emphasis on tones or unusual pronunciations that don't normally occur in English makes it very easy to transliterate those foreign characters into something that's easy to digest.

[Magin]

Be warned about romaji though- ultimately, it becomes a trap. Yes, it's nice to see the sounds in English, but then you run the risk of becoming too reliant on romaji to understand Japanese characters, and have to essentially be weaned off of romaji for effective learning

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by roxybudgy

In high school, we used the book "A Guide To Reading and Writing Japanese" which lists 800 essential kanji characters that Japanese natives are required to know by the time they finish grade 6, and it is ordered according to grade (as in they start with kanji required for grade 1, then grade 2, etc...). The book lists the different readings, shows you the stroke order for writing the character, and includes examples of word combinations.

According to something I read about this book, it states it's not very helpful because it's mostly in rōmaji. Which, normally I would've thought was a good thing, but thanks to that other user pointing out that you shouldn't be too reliant on that, I am once again confused. It basically said the book is good for reference and remembrance, but not for beginners.

And I don't mean to sound unappreciative either, I really admire your insight on the Japanese language and your many tips; I am just trying to learn it the best I can without going through an accidental route that ends with me having to turn around again, metaphorically speaking

[Magin]

Also, something that might be useful, though it seems better for on-the-spot translation than ultimately learning, is an add-on called Rikaichan. It's especially helpful for kanji, but the catch is, besides only being useful on webpages, that you get just the kana and the meaning for vocab kanji- you have to string everything together

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Magin

Also, something that might be useful, though it seems better for on-the-spot translation than ultimately learning, is an add-on called Rikaichan. It's especially helpful for kanji, but the catch is, besides only being useful on webpages, that you get just the kana and the meaning for vocab kanji- you have to string everything together

I use that and yes it can be quite helpful for kanji and words you don't know yet. It's also helped me sign up to Japanese only sites that sell anime good and figures, where I've now been divested of even more of my money. It doesn't work quite as well on words in katakana though. I think it's a firefox only add-on, but Chrome may have something similar.

[Tranhieu]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

I think it's a firefox only add-on, but Chrome may have something similar.

Yeah there's a converted plugin called Rikaikun in Chrome. I also use it a lot to pick up new kanjis and phrases. Though there are times I prefer reading the text without them turned on.