(L) Ano Natsu de Matteru

[Pellissier]

Beach activities.

Spoiler for Megami/Nyantype - slightly NSFW:

Megami:



Nyantype:

[Shadow5YA]

On a lighter note, I heard that Remon's forever 17 thing was an age joke in reference to the seiyuu, Yukari Tamura. Can someone explain that to me?

[Haak]

Reshuffling some points to avoid redundancy.

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

And what does having Kaito all to herself do, exactly? Are you telling me that without a rival, Kanna would have been more aggressive confessed successfully?
Let's not forget that Kanna has liked Kaito for a while now, and Ichika appeared only shortly before summer. Kanna has had months, maybe years more time to tell Kaito. Why hasn't she?

Lol, no not really but that was a cute attempt at getting me to contradict myself. The reason her having Kaito all by herself is a good thing is because their relationship can naturally develop into something more just like Ichika living at Kaito’s home did. What exactly do you think Kaito’s sister meant by Kanna taking care of Kaito? Or rather, what do you think the story was trying to tell us there?

Kanna didn’t confess before then because she had no reason to rush it and ruin her chances.

Yes she does. She got just as jealous towards Kaori as Ichika did. Remon even told Kanna that Kaito liked someone, and that's when Kanna tried to indirectly ask who exactly Kaito likes.
...
Yes she does. Both Kanna and Ichika thought Kaori liked Kaito. Hell, everyone thought she did, because she made it damn obvious with her flirting and arm-to-chest hugging.

Right, we were talking about Ichika being the love rival but now you’ve turned it into Kaori. Okay, whatever. Can I assume then that you can accept that Kanna didn’t think she had a love rival before Kaori then right? Perfect.

Anyway, if you’re arguing that Kanna should’ve done more when she saw Kaori then I don’t know why. You already know she went to Kaito to try and clarify the issue and in the very next episode she tried to confess. And incidently, in both cases she was met with bad luck. I’m struggling to understand what more you expect from her. You keep saying she had plenty of chances which apparently must've been in those two episodes. I mean those two episodes were clearly very important for you determine her character. It's enough to say that Kanna has not been proactive based on two episodes...

You make an argument on who should do something. You say Kaito SHOULD answer to Kanna. My question still stands. Why is Kaito the one who SHOULD do something more than Kanna?
...
You know, normally when a person likes someone, they confess their feelings, then ask for an answer afterwards. Even then, the reply does not always come immediately after the confession.
Yet, you're telling me Kanna should get an answer from Kaito before she even confesses successfully.

No not really.

Assuming that Kaito is emotional capable of pre-rejecting her and that Kanna is emotional incapable of confessing, then yes I think it would be better for Kaito to pre-emptively reject her. Why? Because it’s in their best interests. Kaito doesn’t have to worry about it happening at any moment and Kanna can move on more quickly. But since neither of them is emotionally capable then I don’t expect anything from either of them. I’ve already made this clear repeatedly by the way.

Kaito dealt with Ichika walking away from him the first time he admitted to liking her. He didn't stop, and confessed to her again and again. Yet, just because Kanna failed once, Kaito should answer to her anyway?

Ichika was taken by surprise. Kaito wasn’t. He knew what it was before she even finished. And we already know he’s capable of rejecting someone on the spot. And you do remember that after Ichika recovered from the shock, Ichika then went on to try and plan a clarification right? Which I think was appropriate because someone needed to clear it all up and the most capable seemed to be Ichika. I don’t think it was fair for Kaito to have to deal with it like that so i don’t see why Kanna has to when it doesn’t have to be that unfair.

“Oh hey, when my leg was blown off i didn’t have any friends to help me deal with it and I had to do it all on my own. So even though your leg is blown off I won’t help you, even though I can, because you ought to be able to deal with it just like I did!”

But of course, Kaito isn’t actually capable of it so I don’t actually hold it against him.

If you want to say who should do something, my answer does not change. Kanna SHOULD try again and try harder. The idea that she can't because she lost her chance once is not a legitimate excuse.

I don’t think Kanna should try harder after this because I think she’s only going to get hurt more and make things more difficult for Kaito. If Kaito pre-emptively rejects her then a lot of hurt can be avoided (but he can’t so it can’t be helped). It’s not about whose responsibility it is. It’s not about what’s fair. It’s about doing what needs to be done. Hell this entire argument has been ignoring possible differing factors of personality and background that can have vast effects on the situation, so it was silly to make comparisons with Kanna other characters right from the get go.

Although admittedly, a part of me does want me to have more faith in her and believe she can get Kaito in the end. I can't help but shake this funny feeling that Ichika might turn out to be Red Herring of sorts...

[Waven]

Spoiler for not rly spoiler but anyway...:

Doesn't it kinda look like Kanna confesses in next week's ep preview anyway? ...

Maybe this discussion is best led in a range of ~2-3 episodes... we don't really know what Kaito and Kanna will or won't do next ep to fully justify condemning or redeeming their actions (or lack thereof).
Other than that I can't remember an MC to be criticized for acting in such a situation (read: rejecting before being confessed to) like Kaito did, a situation that has already been rerun countless times, so blaming Kaito here to me seems more like a case of blowing off steam from Kanna fans, no offense.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

Reshuffling some points to avoid redundancy.

Lol, no not really but that was a cute attempt at getting me to contradict myself. The reason her having Kaito all by herself is a good thing is because their relationship can naturally develop into something more just like Ichika living at Kaito’s home did. What exactly do you think Kaito’s sister meant by Kanna taking care of Kaito? Or rather, what do you think the story was trying to tell us there?

Kanna didn’t confess before then because she had no reason to rush it and ruin her chances.

And how does this changes how passive she has been? I see an explanation for why she didn't try harder, not the denial of it.

Also, "natural" progression is not an excuse for avoiding confession. This isn't some marriage proposal. You make your feelings aware through your own words then work from there. If you really think it's fine to have this "natural" progression where she hides her true feelings until the last second, then you get what is called friendzoning in American culture. That's as natural as you can get.

Originally Posted by Haak

Right, we were talking about Ichika being the love rival but now you’ve turned it into Kaori. Okay, whatever. Can I assume then that you can accept that Kanna didn’t think she had a love rival before Kaori then right? Perfect.

Anyway, if you’re arguing that Kanna should’ve done more when she saw Kaori then I don’t know why. You already know she went to Kaito to try and clarify the issue and in the very next episode she tried to confess. And incidently, in both cases she was met with bad luck. I’m struggling to understand what more you expect from her. You keep saying she had plenty of chances which apparently must've been in those two episodes. I mean those two episodes were clearly very important for you determine her character. It's enough to say that Kanna has not been proactive based on two episodes...

No, I merely stated that the of the presence of a love rival in general is not a circumstance exclusive to Kanna, and that Kanna is well aware that she has competition.
I initially gave you proof that Kanna is aware of Ichika, using that time when she run away from them to the bus stop where she subsequently confided in and friendzoned Tetsurou. However, you denied that.
Okay then, if you don't think Kanna knows about Ichika, there is still Kaori.

Purely from what has been shown, Kanna has not done much to help herself. Even in the case that she really didn't recognize any of her rivals (and I have already given examples why that is unlikely, but let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct), you are justifying why she has not been proactive, not disproving that she has not been proactive.

Originally Posted by Haak

No not really.

Assuming that Kaito is emotional capable of pre-rejecting her and that Kanna is emotional incapable of confessing, then yes I think it would be better for Kaito to pre-emptively reject her. Why? Because it’s in their best interests. Kaito doesn’t have to worry about it happening at any moment and Kanna can move on more quickly. But since neither of them is emotionally capable then I don’t expect anything from either of them. I’ve already made this clear repeatedly by the way.

Again, a faulty assumption. What exactly makes Kaito emotionally capable but Kanna incapable? The fact that Kanna tried and failed? Like I said before, try again. It's in her best interest to have the courage to make her own feelings known, then face whatever response she gets afterwards. The ability to do that will help her stay strong if or when she finds another love interest.

The reason why people don't expect a reply before a confession is not because the other person's capability, but because that's not the right way to do things.

It makes no sense to desire a preemptive rejection in any case. Kanna and Kaito aside, why would Mio want Tetsurou to reject her? What could Tetsurou and Kanna possibly gain from Kanna rejecting him when he doesn't say anything?

Originally Posted by Haak

Ichika was taken by surprise. Kaito wasn’t. He knew what it was before she even finished. And we already know he’s capable of rejecting someone on the spot. And you do remember that after Ichika recovered from the shock, Ichika then went on to try and plan a clarification right? Which I think was appropriate because someone needed to clear it all up and the most capable seemed to be Ichika. I don’t think it was fair for Kaito to have to deal with it like that so i don’t see why Kanna has to when it doesn’t have to be that unfair.

“Oh hey, when my leg was blown off i didn’t have any friends to help me deal with it and I had to do it all on my own. So even though your leg is blown off I won’t help you, even though I can, because you ought to be able to deal with it just like I did!”

But of course, Kaito isn’t actually capable of it so I don’t actually hold it against him.

A false analogy and a straw man's argument. If you want to straw man it, here's my version: "oh hey, I have two legs of my own, but I can't run as fast as everyone else in this race, therefore someone faster should pull me along because they are clearly capable and somehow I'm not!"

Originally Posted by Haak

I don’t think Kanna should try harder after this because I think she’s only going to get hurt more and make things more difficult for Kaito. If Kaito pre-emptively rejects her then a lot of hurt can be avoided (but he can’t so it can’t be helped). It’s not about whose responsibility it is. It’s not about what’s fair. It’s about doing what needs to be done. Hell this entire argument has been ignoring possible differing factors of personality and background that can have vast effects on the situation, so it was silly to make comparisons with Kanna other characters right from the get go.

Although admittedly, a part of me does want me to have more faith in her and believe she can get Kaito in the end. I can't help but shake this funny feeling that Ichika might turn out to be Red Herring of sorts...

Being preemptively rejected will not accomplish what you think it will. All it does is harm the people when they are in a state where they aren't strong enough to take it as well. There is a reason why confessions are considered proper form in culture and preemptive rejections are not.

The pain of rejection when faced with unrequited love is a necessary evil. It's something you face (or are supposed to face) if you want to pursue a relationship that's more than platonic, then grow stronger from it.

But hey, maybe that's just my view. Here I was thinking such events were important learning experiences, but if you think it should be avoid, then gosh darn, I guess screwed up in the past for no reason at all.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

On a lighter note, I heard that Remon's forever 17 thing was an age joke in reference to the seiyuu, Yukari Tamura. Can someone explain that to me?

It's just a long-running meme, primarily associated with Kikuko Inoue. For the fans only.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...ple.php?id=542

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

Beach activities.

Spoiler for Megami/Nyantype - slightly NSFW:

Megami:



Nyantype:

No Mio this month

[Haak]

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

And how does this changes how passive she has been? I see an explanation for why she didn't try harder, not the denial of it.

You asked for an explanation and I gave it to you. It’s silly to compare Kanna with the others and say Kanna is the one at fault because the others have been more proactive when she’s not had a reason to be more active like the others have.

Also, "natural" progression is not an excuse for avoiding confession. This isn't some marriage proposal. You make your feelings aware through your own words then work from there. If you really think it's fine to have this "natural" progression where she hides her true feelings until the last second, then you get what is called friendzoning in American culture. That's as natural as you can get.

Please don’t force your own views me. I’m just telling you what the story is telling you. I’ll ask you again: What for you think the story was trying to tell us when Kaito’s sister asked Kanna to take care Kaito?

No, I merely stated that the of the presence of a love rival in general is not a circumstance exclusive to Kanna, and that Kanna is well aware that she has competition.

I initially gave you proof that Kanna is aware of Ichika, using that time when she run away from them to the bus stop where she subsequently confided in and friendzoned Tetsurou. However, you denied that.

Okay then, if you don't think Kanna knows about Ichika, there is still Kaori.

Well you’re not denying Kanna didn’t think of Ichika as a threat so i guess I can assume I’m right then. You’re not denying that Kanna wasn’t proactive with Kaori either...

I denied your “proof” because it wasn’t really proof. I can only ask you to watch the scene with Kanna and Tetsuro again. It very clearly shows what she’s actually feeling.

Purely from what has been shown, Kanna has not done much to help herself. Even in the case that she really didn't recognize any of her rivals (and I have already given examples why that is unlikely, but let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct), you are justifying why she has not been proactive, not disproving that she has not been proactive.

No. I’ve been justifying why she’s not been proactive when she’s not been proactive and explaining to you when she has been proactive when it’s reasonable for her to be proactive. There’s no contradiction. And I’m still not seeing much in the way of counter-arguments btw.

Again, a faulty assumption. What exactly makes Kaito emotionally capable but Kanna incapable? The fact that Kanna tried and failed? Like I said before, try again. It's in her best interest to have the courage to make her own feelings known, then face whatever response she gets afterwards. The ability to do that will help her stay strong if or when she finds another love interest.

The reason why people don't expect a reply before a confession is not because the other person's capability, but because that's not the right way to do things.

How the hell should I know?!?!?! I‘m not making that assumption! How many times do I have to freaking tell you that?!?!

If you’re going to argue that it’s better for Kanna’s feelings to confess first, then fine. I don’t have any problem with that opinion, and I never did. But the last time I checked, arguing that Kanna has not been proactive and doesn’t deserve to have the leisure of a pre-emptive rejection has nothing to do with arguing that it’s better for her feelings if she isn’t pre-emptively rejected.

It makes no sense to desire a preemptive rejection in any case. Kanna and Kaito aside, why would Mio want Tetsurou to reject her? What could Tetsurou and Kanna possibly gain from Kanna rejecting him when he doesn't say anything?

So just because it could potentially be applied to one situation, that must naturally mean it has to be applied to every single one, right? I advocated what was in the best interests of Kanna and Kaito. It’s obviously going to be situational. I’m not going to advocate what’s best for the others because that’s not the point.

A false analogy and a straw man's argument. If you want to straw man it, here's my version: "oh hey, I have two legs of my own, but I can't run as fast as everyone else in this race, therefore someone faster should pull me along because they are clearly capable and somehow I'm not!"

No I think it was a pretty good analogy actually. In my opinion, Kaito’s situation with Ichika just walking away wasn’t fair at all and Ichika went on to clarify it with Kaito so it shouldn’t be the same with Ichika. Argument in comparing it with Ichika’s situation was therefore false. But if you just want to ignore that point and focus on the illustration of the argument and not the actual argument and then present your own illustration, then be my guest. Again, I’m not seeing any substantial counter-arguments...

Being pre-emptively rejected will not accomplish what you think it will. All it does is harm the people when they are in a state where they aren't strong enough to take it as well. There is a reason why confessions are considered proper form in culture and pre-emptive rejections are not.

So does that mean Kanna just got seriously harmed then? Because that was pretty much an unintentional pre-emptive rejection wasn’t it? Incidentally, so was Ichika’s blank walk off when she found out Kaito liked her.

But frankly I don't need a lecture on what's natural and what isn't, especially in the form of an Appeal to Tradition. Don't try and pass it off as fact either. There's no textbook on romance and love. This is all besides the point, anyway.

The pain of rejection when faced with unrequited love is a necessary evil. It's something you face (or are supposed to face) if you want to pursue a relationship that's more than platonic, then grow stronger from it.
But hey, maybe that's just my view. Here I was thinking such events were important learning experiences, but if you think it should be avoid, then gosh darn, I guess screwed up in the past for no reason at all.

Look you’re fine to believe it doesn’t work, but I’m not really hearing much in the way of actual argument. Just a lot of opinion and nothing more substantial than that. I’m not looking to call you stupid for your beliefs so please don’t make it sound like I am, nor do I appreciate you implying I’m lacking knowledge in important learning experiences.

If you want my view (offtopic) then frankly, I’m not convinced. How is the pain of rejection from a confession really that much more of a learning experience than the pain of pre-emptive rejection? And is it really a good idea to make decisions based on what you think would be a good learning experience? Personally I just think it’s better to reduce the pain that’s right in front of me, rather than worry about something as ridiculously vague as a learning experience from love...

Besides, its not like pre-emptive rejections are that unnatural in Nagai directed anime. It happened pretty early on in Honey & Clover and it happened in Toradora! too, but ut's not like those characters died anything.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Haak

[SPOILER="Shadow5YA"]

You asked for an explanation and I gave it to you. It’s silly to compare Kanna with the others and say Kanna is the one at fault because the others have been more proactive when she’s not had a reason to be more active like the others have.

Funny how you say that, because here:

Originally Posted by Haak

But that’s the thing: Kanna didn’t even know she was dealing with a love rival. And I think I've made it perfectly clear how Kanna has actually done just as much as the other girls. The only reason Kanna hasn't confessed whilst the others have is because of her luck/circumstances.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you're saying that Kanna has just worked as hard as the others, but now you're saying that she actually wasn't as active as the others, only because it's not her fault.

Even if you do mean to defend Kanna's actions, those are still two completely different statements.

Originally Posted by Haak

[Please don’t force your own views me. I’m just telling you what the story is telling you. I’ll ask you again: What for you think the story was trying to tell us when Kaito’s sister asked Kanna to take care Kaito?

Here's the thing: if Kanna wants something more from Kaito, then she has to say it. This is common sense.

If you plan to justify Kanna taking it slowly and keeping their relationship stagnant, then you are defending the idea that Kanna is satisfied with her current relationship towards Kaito and therefore does not have to do anything.
However, if Kanna does want a deeper relationship with Kaito, then she has to tell him. If she does nothing, then there is no doubt it won't go anywhere.

It's that simple. You can overcomplicate things by saying "but she didn't know she had rivals!" or "she'll get hurt if she confesses!", but emotional pain is unavoidable. As you say, "can't be helped."

Mio was brought to tears during her moment with Tetsurou, and she succeeded. Kaori was brought to tears, even by a guy that according to you, she has no interest in. Kanna will just have to deal with it just like them.

Originally Posted by Haak

Well you’re not denying Kanna didn’t think of Ichika as a threat so i guess I can assume I’m right then. You’re not denying that Kanna wasn’t proactive with Kaori either...

I denied your “proof” because it wasn’t really proof. I can only ask you to watch the scene with Kanna and Tetsuro again. It very clearly shows what she’s actually feeling.

Since you seem to get ahead of yourself when I give you the benefit of the doubt and insist that I rewatch the scene, here are the subs, line by line from Crunchyroll. The scenery and background descriptions are by me, but the dialogue is verbatim from the Crunchyroll video. If for some reason you find my copy questionable, feel free to heed your own advice and rewatch episode 5 yourself.

Spoiler for ep5 CR subs:

This is the part where Kaito, Kanna, and Ichika are at the dinner table together. Kaito is rolling his camera, focused on Ichika. Kaito asked Kanna and Ichika to make and continue their conversation while he films.

Kanna: Um, Sempai.

You're studying abroad, right?

Ichika: Yeah, I guess so.

Kanna: How long will you be here?

*Kaito takes his finger off the record button*

Six months?

A year?

Ichika: Um, well...

Kanna: Sorry! I shouldn't have said...

Ichika: No, it's fine. Don't worry.

*fade to black*

Kanna: Why...

... did I ...?

*scene changes to Kanna walking home in the rain with an umbrella*

Why did I ask that?

I'm a bad person.

I'm a terrible person.

I'm a lousy person.

I'm not cute at all.

*wipes away tears, meets Tetsurou*

Why are you here?

Tetsurou: Coincidence.

Kanna: Mio, huh?

Tetsurou: I guess so.

*scene change to them taking shelter under a bus stop*

You went to Kai's house, didn't you?

You were pretty courageous.

Kanna: I shouldn't have gone.

Tetsurou: Why?

Kanna: I shouldn't get involved.

I get uneasy just watching the two of them talking.

I don't like when I get like that.

Tetsurou: Just tell him you like him.

Kai still hasn't --

Kanna: I can't.

Tetsurou: Why?

Kanna: I just can't.

If it doesn't go well, things will get awkward between us.

It'll be weird.

We're all making a movie together.

If that happens, I won't be able to participate.

I'd make Kaito-kun uncomfortable.

Tetsurou: Then...

Are you just going to keep feeling uneasy and not do anything?

Kanna: You're not in love so you can't understand!

You just wouldn't understand...

Tetsurou: Yeah, I guess so.

Sorry about that.

Kanna: I said too much.

I'm sorry.

*rain stops*

Kanna: It's cleared up.

That's good.

Tetsurou: Hey, Kanna.

Kanna: I'll stay normal.

We're all going to have fun filming that movie during summer break.

We'll make the movie, and show it at the school fair.

And I'll just keep being the usuall Kanna Tanigawa.

That's what I've decided.

Tetsurou: Right.

Kanna: Come on. Let's go, Tetsuro.

Tetsurou: Sure.

Here are the facts: Kanna asked how long Ichika was going to stay, and conversely, is implicitly asking when she is going to leave.

She leaves, and feels guilty for asking that.

Kanna meets up with Tetsurou, who asks her about what she did. She says that she "shouldn't have gone" (to Kaito's house), and that she feels uneasy just hearing the two of them (presumably Kaito and Ichika, the only other two people there) talk.

Tetsurou explicitly suggests Kanna to confess. Kanna refuses, saying that if she fails, it'll get awkward between her and Kaito and also render her unable to participate any longer in the movie.

Tetsurou asks if she is just going to leave things as us and continue to feel uneasy as a result. Kanna retorts that Tetsurou doesn't understand because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love. Tetsurou concedes.

When the rain clears up, Kanna states that she'll stay normal, and keep being her usual self.

Here's my opinion, all nice and separated for you:
I think that Kanna obviously feels guilty for asking Ichika how long she is staying because she was jealous towards Ichika. She felt bad about it, because she knew she was being shallow. The idea is reinforced by the fact that she said she felt uneasy just seeing the Kaito and Ichika together. She is quite clearly aware of Ichika as a rival, which is why she wanted to know how long Ichika is going to stay and when Ichika will leave.

Kanna is afraid to confess in fear of making things awkward, should she get rejected. This is natural. However Tetsurou suggested she do it anyway, because not knowing and feeling uneasy because of it is worse. I agree with that.

Now, maybe my comprehension is lacking, but I think I saw Kanna making the conscious decision to do nothing, in fear of ruining her relationship with Kaito. Feel free to rewatch that part and correct me.

I think that Kanna is quite clearly is aware of Ichika as a rival, and chose not to confess because she was afraid.

The benefit of the doubt I gave you is no more.

Originally Posted by Haak

No. I’ve been justifying why she’s not been proactive when she’s not been proactive and explaining to you when she has been proactive when it’s reasonable for her to be proactive. There’s no contradiction. And I’m still not seeing much in the way of counter-arguments btw.

See above. Initially you said that Kanna was just as proactive as the others, but now you say that it isn't, but it just can't be helped because it's not her fault.

My belief that it can be helped may be my personal opinion, but it does not change the fact that Kanna chose not to act normal and refused to confess until the most recent episode.

Also, keep in mind that Kanna has had these feelings since the beginning of the series.

Here's a thought: Kanna actually felt that way before Ichika even arrived on the planet, but maybe, just maybe, Kanna chose not to do anything because of reasons already stated to Tetsurou -- she was afraid of ruining what she currently has with Kaito.

Originally Posted by Haak

[How the hell should I know?!?!?! I‘m not making that assumption! How many times do I have to freaking tell you that?!?!

If you’re going to argue that it’s better for Kanna’s feelings to confess first, then fine. I don’t have any problem with that opinion, and I never did. But the last time I checked, arguing that Kanna has not been proactive and doesn’t deserve to have the leisure of a pre-emptive rejection has nothing to do with arguing that it’s better for her feelings if she isn’t pre-emptively rejected.

An argument is centered on a claim. Here's mine: Kanna has not been proactive, save for an attempt during the Test of Courage.

I have provided evidence and reasons for my assertion.

If you refuse to acknowledge even that, I can't really stop you.

Originally Posted by Haak

So just because it could potentially be applied to one situation, that must naturally mean it has to be applied to every single one, right? I advocated what was in the best interests of Kanna and Kaito. It’s obviously going to be situational. I’m not going to advocate what’s best for the others because that’s not the point.

No I think it was a pretty good analogy actually. In my opinion, Kaito’s situation with Ichika just walking away wasn’t fair at all and Ichika went on to clarify it with Kaito so it shouldn’t be the same with Ichika. Argument in comparing it with Ichika’s situation was therefore false. But if you just want to ignore that point and focus on the illustration of the argument and not the actual argument and then present your own illustration, then be my guest. Again, I’m not seeing any substantial counter-arguments...

For now, I'll refrain from commenting any further on this part because it is centered on our beliefs, though I am afraid you might assume yours to be true just because I do that like above...

Originally Posted by Haak

So does that mean Kanna just got seriously harmed then? Because that was pretty much an unintentional pre-emptive rejection wasn’t it? Incidentally, so was Ichika’s blank walk off when she found out Kaito liked her.

But frankly I don't need a lecture on what's natural and what isn't, especially in the form of an Appeal to Tradition. Don't try and pass it off as fact either. There's no textbook on romance and love. This is all besides the point, anyway.



Look you’re fine to believe it doesn’t work, but I’m not really hearing much in the way of actual argument. Just a lot of opinion and nothing more substantial than that. I’m not looking to call you stupid for your beliefs so please don’t make it sound like I am, nor do I appreciate you implying I’m lacking knowledge in important learning experiences.

If you want my view (offtopic) then frankly, I’m not convinced. How is the pain of rejection from a confession really that much more of a learning experience than the pain of pre-emptive rejection? And is it really a good idea to make decisions based on what you think would be a good learning experience? Personally I just think it’s better to reduce the pain that’s right in front of me, rather than worry about something as ridiculously vague as a learning experience from love...

Besides, its not like pre-emptive rejections are that unnatural in Nagai directed anime. It happened pretty early on in Honey & Clover and it happened in Toradora! too, but ut's not like those characters died anything.

Opinions, so I won't say anything more. However, there are facts contrary to what you have stated, as shown up. A difference in opinions does not really justify ignoring the facts that come with them.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Random Guy

Well, don't lie to make your point.

Cute.

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Funny how you say that, because here:

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you're saying that Kanna has just worked as hard as the others, but now you're saying that she actually wasn't as active as the others, only because it's not her fault.

Even if you do mean to defend Kanna's actions, those are still two completely different statements.

Yes you are mistaken because you’ve not read it properly. I said it’s silly to say Kanna should be more proactive. As in, more proactive than she already is.
Get it now?

Here's the thing: if Kanna wants something more from Kaito, then she has to say it. This is common sense.

If you plan to justify Kanna taking it slowly and keeping their relationship stagnant, then you are defending the idea that Kanna is satisfied with her current relationship towards Kaito and therefore does not have to do anything.
However, if Kanna does want a deeper relationship with Kaito, then she has to tell him. If she does nothing, then there is no doubt it won't go anywhere.

It's that simple. You can overcomplicate things by saying "but she didn't know she had rivals!" or "she'll get hurt if she confesses!", but emotional pain is unavoidable. As you say, "can't be helped."

Mio was brought to tears during her moment with Tetsurou, and she succeeded. Kaori was brought to tears, even by a guy that according to you, she has no interest in. Kanna will just have to deal with it just like them.

You’ve not even tried to address my actual point. Let me ask you again: What for you think the story was trying to tell us when Kaito’s sister asked Kanna to take care Kaito?

Since you seem to get ahead of yourself when I give you the benefit of the doubt and insist that I rewatch the scene, here are the subs, line by line from Crunchyroll. The scenery and background descriptions are by me, but the dialogue is verbatim from the Crunchyroll video. If for some reason you find my copy questionable, feel free to heed your own advice and rewatch episode 5 yourself.

Spoiler for ep5 CR subs:

This is the part where Kaito, Kanna, and Ichika are at the dinner table together. Kaito is rolling his camera, focused on Ichika. Kaito asked Kanna and Ichika to make and continue their conversation while he films.

Kanna: Um, Sempai.

You're studying abroad, right?

Ichika: Yeah, I guess so.

Kanna: How long will you be here?

*Kaito takes his finger off the record button*

Six months?

A year?

Ichika: Um, well...

Kanna: Sorry! I shouldn't have said...

Ichika: No, it's fine. Don't worry.

*fade to black*

Kanna: Why...

... did I ...?

*scene changes to Kanna walking home in the rain with an umbrella*

Why did I ask that?

I'm a bad person.

I'm a terrible person.

I'm a lousy person.

I'm not cute at all.

*wipes away tears, meets Tetsurou*

Why are you here?

Tetsurou: Coincidence.

Kanna: Mio, huh?

Tetsurou: I guess so.

*scene change to them taking shelter under a bus stop*

You went to Kai's house, didn't you?

You were pretty courageous.

Kanna: I shouldn't have gone.

Tetsurou: Why?

Kanna: I shouldn't get involved.

I get uneasy just watching the two of them talking.

I don't like when I get like that.

Tetsurou: Just tell him you like him.

Kai still hasn't --

Kanna: I can't.

Tetsurou: Why?

Kanna: I just can't.

If it doesn't go well, things will get awkward between us.

It'll be weird.

We're all making a movie together.

If that happens, I won't be able to participate.

I'd make Kaito-kun uncomfortable.

Tetsurou: Then...

Are you just going to keep feeling uneasy and not do anything?

Kanna: You're not in love so you can't understand!

You just wouldn't understand...

Tetsurou: Yeah, I guess so.

Sorry about that.

Kanna: I said too much.

I'm sorry.

*rain stops*

Kanna: It's cleared up.

That's good.

Tetsurou: Hey, Kanna.

Kanna: I'll stay normal.

We're all going to have fun filming that movie during summer break.

We'll make the movie, and show it at the school fair.

And I'll just keep being the usuall Kanna Tanigawa.

That's what I've decided.

Tetsurou: Right.

Kanna: Come on. Let's go, Tetsuro.

Tetsurou: Sure.

Here are the facts: Kanna asked how long Ichika was going to stay, and conversely, is implicitly asking when she is going to leave.

She leaves, and feels guilty for asking that.

Kanna meets up with Tetsurou, who asks her about what she did. She says that she "shouldn't have gone" (to Kaito's house), and that she feels uneasy just hearing the two of them (presumably Kaito and Ichika, the only other two people there) talk.

Tetsurou explicitly suggests Kanna to confess. Kanna refuses, saying that if she fails, it'll get awkward between her and Kaito and also render her unable to participate any longer in the movie.

Tetsurou asks if she is just going to leave things as us and continue to feel uneasy as a result. Kanna retorts that Tetsurou doesn't understand because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love. Tetsurou concedes.

When the rain clears up, Kanna states that she'll stay normal, and keep being her usual self.

Here's my opinion, all nice and separated for you:
I think that Kanna obviously feels guilty for asking Ichika how long she is staying because she was jealous towards Ichika. She felt bad about it, because she knew she was being shallow. The idea is reinforced by the fact that she said she felt uneasy just seeing the Kaito and Ichika together. She is quite clearly aware of Ichika as a rival, which is why she wanted to know how long Ichika is going to stay and when Ichika will leave.

Kanna is afraid to confess in fear of making things awkward, should she get rejected. This is natural. However Tetsurou suggested she do it anyway, because not knowing and feeling uneasy because of it is worse. I agree with that.

Now, maybe my comprehension is lacking, but I think I saw Kanna making the conscious decision to do nothing, in fear of ruining her relationship with Kaito. Feel free to rewatch that part and correct me.

I think that Kanna is quite clearly is aware of Ichika as a rival, and chose not to confess because she was afraid.

You missed two crucial things. She interrupted Tetsuro when Tetsuro was about to tell her she has nothing to fear from Ichika. Why would she do that? What is the story trying to tell us there. I think the reason she interrupted is because she knows what Tetsuro was going to say and knew it didn’t matter.

She also makes the decision to act normal. Why? Just because she doesn’t want to threaten her relationship with Kaito? If she knew Ichika was an actual threat then why would she think she has the luxury to do that? Wouldn’t she be more proactive like she was with Kaori?

Also if she knew that Ichika was a threat and wasn’t going to confess then why do so now? Nothings changed, has it?

The benefit of the doubt I gave you is no more.

Cute.

But seriously if you want me to actually believe you then I’m afraid you’re going to have to actually argue your point. So please, no more “benefit of the doubt”. I don’t want it either.

See above. Initially you said that Kanna was just as proactive as the others, but now you say that it isn't, but it just can't be helped because it's not her fault.

My belief that it can be helped may be my personal opinion, but it does not change the fact that Kanna chose not to act normal and refused to confess until the most recent episode.

Also, keep in mind that Kanna has had these feelings since the beginning of the series.

Here's a thought: Kanna actually felt that way before Ichika even arrived on the planet, but maybe, just maybe, Kanna chose not to do anything because of reasons already stated to Tetsurou -- she was afraid of ruining what she currently has with Kaito.

Fair enough, but why would you think that? The reason you said Kanna was afraid of confessing to Kaito now was because she was afraid of Ichika. What would she have been afraid of then?

An argument is centered on a claim. Here's mine: Kanna has not been proactive, save for an attempt during the Test of Courage.

I have provided evidence and reasons for my assertion.

If you refuse to acknowledge even that, I can't really stop you.

How am I refusing to acknowledge that? I’m addressing them above aren’t I?
You’re changing the subject. The fact is that there’s no double standard and I’m not assuming Kaito has to do anything. I also don’t think that arguing that it’s better for her feelings if she isn’t pre-emptively rejected has anything to do with arguing that Kanna has not been proactive. Don't try and change the subject and pretend we were arguing about that here when we weren't.

And btw it’s you that’s been ignoring my evidence. I’ve given plenty proof that Kanna has actually been just as proactive as the others. But your only response has been that it apparently contradicts my point that she doesn’t need to be proactive. Which actually doesn’t change the fact that she’s been proactive.

For now, I'll refrain from commenting any further on this part because it is centered on our beliefs, though I am afraid you might assume yours to be true just because I do that like above...

Yeah sorry about that...

Opinions, so I won't say anything more. However, there are facts contrary to what you have stated, as shown up. A difference in opinions does not really justify ignoring the facts that come with them.

You won’t say anything more except that you’re right and I’m wrong and you don’t need to explain why.

I’ll do what you do and won’t say anything more, except I actually won’t say anything more. Here’s how it’s done:

Spoiler for nothing more:

...

[erneiz_hyde]

And thus the conclusion of Haak and Shadow's debate will be found above the horizon, where the two parallels meet :P

Seriously though, what is it really you're arguing, Haak? What's your simple, purest idea behind your arguments? Quite frankly speaking, I don't really get it.

Principally, I agree with what Shadow said more than yours, but I'm trying to understand your pov too here.

[Haak]

The only thing I'm arguing is that Kanna has been reasonably proactive and that her lack of a confession is the result of misfortune more than any major flaw in her character.

[Spychan]

Or why are we honestly getting riled up over an anime?

Guys....just enjoy the anime and enjoy the fucking show.

So weird.

[Haak]

Well I was hoping for a friendly discussion to begin with but since most of the antagonism was based on a point I didn't even make, it was always going to be difficult.

Plus I tried to put it under spoiler tags so no one would have to put up with the eye cancerous meta posting but that didn't work out either. If it's really that bad then I can always stop here. Considering Shadow5YA has such an incredibly low opinion of my very life viewpoint, and convinced that I'm lying and inentionally ignoring facts, I can't really say I'm interested in convincing anymore. At the very least though, I'd like to make my point seem reasonable to everyone else. It worries me that after spending so long arguing, one person still doesn't even know what it is I was arguing about.

[warita]

I must say I never quite understood the japanese penchant for "confessing your feelings to a person who just isnt into you".

I really wonder, what the point of it is. I think Kanna realizes, that Kaito likes Ichika, so why confess to him at all? Does she actually think, that when she lets him know about her feelings, he will suddenly realize that he loves Kanna and not Ichika?

Also..... I have been in Kaitos place a few times and it isnt pleasant. You know that other person has feelings for you, however you are not interested and you dont want to hear about his feelings either. It complicates everything and you just cant go back to how things were before confession and it usually takes a bad turn, because after you refuse him, he starts resenting you or in the worse scenario he cuts off the contact.

I dont blame Kaito at all....

[cyth]

Originally Posted by warita

I really wonder, what the point of it is. I think Kanna realizes, that Kaito likes Ichika, so why confess to him at all? Does she actually think, that when she lets him know about her feelings, he will suddenly realize that he loves Kanna and not Ichika?

Of course Kaito won't change his mind, Kaito never cared about Kanna in that way. But Kanna isn't alone in this endeavour, she has Lemon supporting her. Lemon only wants all of them to grow strong as people, so she's deliberately creating opportunities for them. Being upfront about your feelings and confessing them is one of the hardest things to do in life. You put your heart out on a platter and expect the worse to happen - like it getting severely stabbed. I firmly believe that whatever happens makes you stronger.

[warita]

Originally Posted by cyth

Of course Kaito won't change his mind, Kaito never cared about Kanna in that way. But Kanna isn't alone in this endeavour, she has Lemon supporting her. Lemon only wants all of them to grow strong as people, so she's deliberately creating opportunities for them. Being upfront about your feelings and confessing them is one of the hardest things to do in life. You put your heart out on a platter and expect the worse to happen - like it getting severely stabbed. I firmly believe that whatever happens makes you stronger.

Yes, you are right, it probably makes you grow.


Maybe you also grow by realizing, that there are things in this world you cant have. And as much as you would want him to love you back, its not gonna happen and you should learn to accept it and move on. That may be an even harder lesson than the first one.

[Shadow5YA]

Spoiler for compression:

Originally Posted by Haak

Yes you are mistaken because you’ve not read it properly. I said it’s silly to say Kanna should be more proactive. As in, more proactive than she already is.
Get it now?

Fine, then is it safe to say this is your argument? You believe that Kanna, under her circumstances, tried the best she could. She tried the best she could,
therefore she doesn't need to put in any more effort and has made a level of effort equal to the other characters in the cast, like Kaito, Kaori, Mio, etc, and whoever.

Assuming it is, then I disagree; Kanna didn't try the best she could. It was her choice not to tell Kaito. Because it was her choice, she could have made a different one: actually tell Kaito and keep trying until she succeeds. By definition of a choice, it can be helped. If it couldn't, then it's not really a choice.

Originally Posted by Haak

You’ve not even tried to address my actual point. Let me ask you again: What for you think the story was trying to tell us when Kaito’s sister asked Kanna to take care Kaito?

It's a point that you have already mentioned several times, and a point I already addressed: Kanna was there before Ichika. If you want to be pedantic about it, Tetsurou's sister knows that Kanna was there before Ichika.

Manami isn't dense. If she can pick up on Ichika's jealousy in ep4 when the two first met, then more than likely she knows about Kanna's feelings as well.

So Kanna has liked Kaito before Ichika even came into the picture. She didn't always have a rival. Therefore, she saw no reason to rush things. That is natural, and I'm sure you would like to agree.
However, what I see from that is that she made the choice not to pursue a relationship beyond the platonic level. "Can't be helped"? I disagree.

Originally Posted by Haak

You missed two crucial things. She interrupted Tetsuro when Tetsuro was about to tell her she has nothing to fear from Ichika. Why would she do that? What is the story trying to tell us there. I think the reason she interrupted is because she knows what Tetsuro was going to say and knew it didn’t matter.

That is your interpretation of what has not been said, not fact.

Here's mine: "Kaito still hasn't--" is Tetsurou saying that Kaito has not officially confessed and hooked up with Ichika yet, which means it's not over. Kanna still has a chance, even if it's smaller than Ichika's.

Going off what was actually stated, it doesn't change Kanna's choice, because she consciously refused to confess to Kaito because she doesn't want to ruin what she currently has.

The point is that it does not matter what Tetsurou is going to say. Kanna made her decision not to pursue Kaito for reasons already stated herself. Tetsurou's suggestion holds no ground for her, because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love.

Originally Posted by Haak

Cute.

But seriously if you want me to actually believe you then I’m afraid you’re going to have to actually argue your point. So please, no more “benefit of the doubt”. I don’t want it either.

I argued your point under conditions favorable to you, and you seem accept those gladly. Then, you turn back and tell me that I haven't argued the point at all. Now that is cute.

But okay, if you don't accept my argument under those conditions, I'll go back to mine: Kanna was well aware of Ichika and Kaori as love rivals. I even gave you CR's script to prove it. But then, you ignore what was already stated to extrapolate on an interrupted statement.

Originally Posted by Haak

Fair enough, but why would you think that? The reason you said Kanna was afraid of confessing to Kaito now was because she was afraid of Ichika. What would she have been afraid of then?

No, that's your incorrect interpretation. The reason why I said Kanna was afraid of confessing to Kaito was because she was afraid in general, not of Ichika specifically.

Since you suggested I rewatch the episode, I did, and Kanna stated her problems quite clearly. She was bothered by Ichika, and she won't confess because she's afraid of making things awkward with Kaito if things don't go well.

Originally Posted by Haak

How am I refusing to acknowledge that? I’m addressing them above aren’t I?
You’re changing the subject. The fact is that there’s no double standard and I’m not assuming Kaito has to do anything. I also don’t think that arguing that it’s better for her feelings if she isn’t pre-emptively rejected has anything to do with arguing that Kanna has not been proactive. Don't try and change the subject and pretend we were arguing about that here when we weren't.

And btw it’s you that’s been ignoring my evidence. I’ve given plenty proof that Kanna has actually been just as proactive as the others. But your only response has been that it apparently contradicts my point that she doesn’t need to be proactive. Which actually doesn’t change the fact that she’s been proactive.

No, you have given me proof for the fact that Kanna has reasons for not confessing to Kaito until recently. Those reasons may justify to you that "it can't be helped" (which is an opinion), and therefore Kanna has been as proactive as much as she can, but it does not prove that she has been as proactive as other characters in the cast.

I have already presented the fact that it was Kanna's choice not to confess her feelings until very recently. This is fact.

The opinion that I draw from that is that because Kanna made a choice not to act on her feelings, she can make the opposite choice: act on them, confess, and if she gets interrupted, find another chance and try again until Kaito hears it directly from her, just like Tetsurou heard Mio's confession directly and Ichika heard Kaito's confession directly.

Feel free to refuse my opinion as you have been doing, but I would recommend not ignoring the facts that are tied to it.

On a side note, the fact that you ignore what was stated just to focus on what wasn't stated and
focus your point entirely around that isn't helping your credibility in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Haak

But seriously if you want me to actually believe you then I’m afraid you’re going to have to actually argue your point.

I suggest you heed your own advice, before I do what you did and assume an omission of a rebuttal for a specific point means you acknowledge my point as true.


And again: I will state the thesis for my argument: It was Kanna's choice not to act on her feelings. Because it was her choice, it can be helped. I have provided facts and reasons for my assertion, which you seem to not acknowledge because you think it's all opinion and somehow I haven't argued a bit at all.

My distaste for a pre-emptive rejection and Kanna's level of proactiveness are purely subjective, and as such cannot be argued on any grounds other than morals and beliefs, so I'll leave that out for now. I'll give you that. However, Kanna's level of effort, while partly subjective, can be evaluated in comparsion towards the other characters and be supported with facts.

[Haak]

Okay, I appreciate your attempt at toning down the hostility so I'm going to try my best to tone it down too. Hopefully I've done a reasonable job

Spoiler for Shadow5YA:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Fine, then is it safe to say this is your argument? You believe that Kanna, under her circumstances, tried the best she could. She tried the best she could,
therefore she doesn't need to put in any more effort and has made a level of effort equal to the other characters in the cast, like Kaito, Kaori, Mio, etc, and whoever.

Assuming it is, then I disagree; Kanna didn't try the best she could. It was her choice not to tell Kaito. Because it was her choice, she could have made a different one: actually tell Kaito and keep trying until she succeeds. By definition of a choice, it can be helped. If it couldn't, then it's not really a choice.

Wait a minute are you seriously saying the reason you think Kanna hasn’t been proactive enough is because she made a choice not to confess to Kaito? A choice that lasted exactly two episodes and where Kanna wouldn’t have been able to do anything even if she made the choice to confess?

In any case you’ve got it wrong. I’m simply saying she’s made the level of effort equal to the other girls. Just because she made a choice not to confess for two episodes don’t necessarily mean she’s done worse than the others. Remember that Mio chose not to confess until recently as well.

It's a point that you have already mentioned several times, and a point I already addressed: Kanna was there before Ichika. If you want to be pedantic about it, Tetsurou's sister knows that Kanna was there before Ichika.

Manami isn't dense. If she can pick up on Ichika's jealousy in ep4 when the two first met, then more than likely she knows about Kanna's feelings as well.

That’s all? You really don’t think there was a second message? Then why did Kaito’s sister say that? Why would she just randomly say “take care of Kaito”? You admit she knows that Kanna has feelings for Kaito. Don’t you think she’s saying it because she expects something to happen? Kanna even thought that the idea of Kaito’s sister looking for a girl to take care of him was like a wedding arrangement (Episode 2)

So Kanna has liked Kaito before Ichika even came into the picture. She didn't always have a rival. Therefore, she saw no reason to rush things. That is natural, and I'm sure you would like to agree.
However, what I see from that is that she made the choice not to pursue a relationship beyond the platonic level. "Can't be helped"? I disagree.

If we’re talking about before Ichika then I don’t think she made a choice not to pursue a relationship. She just had these feelings for him and didn’t know what the hell to do with them. Probably confused but didn’t think she needed to rush anything. Seems to be pretty common in this anime actually. The girls only ever realise they like the guy through jealousy. Weird.

That is your interpretation of what has not been said, not fact.

Here's mine: "Kaito still hasn't--" is Tetsurou saying that Kaito has not officially confessed and hooked up with Ichika yet, which means it's not over. Kanna still has a chance, even if it's smaller than Ichika's.

Going off what was actually stated, it doesn't change Kanna's choice, because she consciously refused to confess to Kaito because she doesn't want to ruin what she currently has.

The point is that it does not matter what Tetsurou is going to say. Kanna made her decision not to pursue Kaito for reasons already stated herself. Tetsurou's suggestion holds no ground for her, because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love.

That wasn’t the point I was making. The point was that whatever Tetsuro was going to say, it didn’t matter to Kanna. And I’m pretty sure she knew it was about Ichika. Therefore, Ichika wasn’t the actually issue. Kanna didn’t interrupt him because she thought his suggestion lacks credibility because she thinks he doesn't know what it's like to be in love. That only came afterwards in a spit of anger when Tetsuro half ridiculed her. She didn’t even mean it.

Anyway, there was the other point as well: The fact is that if she made the choice not to confess then it would automatically mean she doesn’t think Ichika isn’t a problem. Like I said, why has she decided to confess now? It’s not like anything has actually changed. Ichika is still there.

I argued your point under conditions favorable to you, and you seem accept those gladly. Then, you turn back and tell me that I haven't argued the point at all. Now that is cute.

Well you hadn’t argued the point at all. I had to point that out eventually, even if I did misinterpret your actions. I had after all already addressed the points under the condiitons favourable to me didn't I? Then it makes sense that we would move on to the actual argument right?

But okay, if you don't accept my argument under those conditions, I'll go back to mine: Kanna was well aware of Ichika and Kaori as love rivals. I even gave you CR's script to prove it. But then, you ignore what was already stated to extrapolate on an interrupted statement.

This is redundant right? I mean I’ve already addressed this above right? I'm only saying this because I don’t want any more silly accusation of me ignoring evidence or lying.

No, that's your incorrect interpretation. The reason why I said Kanna was afraid of confessing to Kaito was because she was afraid in general, not of Ichika specifically.

Since you suggested I rewatch the episode, I did, and Kanna stated her problems quite clearly. She was bothered by Ichika, and she won't confess because she's afraid of making things awkward with Kaito if things don't go well.

Yes okay fine. I was just wondering if you were basing that on Kanna and Tetsuro convo based on the “reasons already stated to Tetsurou -- she was afraid of ruining what she currently has with Kaito.” It seems to me like you are basing it on Tetsuro’s conversation but you’re also saying that Tetsuro’s convo suggested she was just bothered by Ichika, hence my confusion.

No, you have given me proof for the fact that Kanna has reasons for not confessing to Kaito until recently. Those reasons may justify to you that "it can't be helped" (which is an opinion), and therefore Kanna has been as proactive as much as she can, but it does not prove that she has been as proactive as other characters in the cast.

I have already presented the fact that it was Kanna's choice not to confess her feelings until very recently. This is fact.

The opinion that I draw from that is that because Kanna made a choice not to act on her feelings, she can make the opposite choice: act on them, confess, and if she gets interrupted, find another chance and try again until Kaito hears it directly from her, just like Tetsurou heard Mio's confession directly and Ichika heard Kaito's confession directly.

Feel free to refuse my opinion as you have been doing, but I would recommend not ignoring the facts that are tied to it.

I haven’t been refusing anything. I’m well aware of the fact that Kanna’s chose not to confess. It’s the very basis for one of my points after all: That she didn’t know she had a love rival and thus it’s unfair to compare her to those that did. But as long as you accept that Kanna’s been as proactive as she can then I’m not going to pursue it any further. To be honest I don;t see a difference between Kanna pursing it as much as she can and Kanna pursuing it just as much as the others because the other girls pursued it as much as they reasonably could as well.

But just to let you know. I argued that Kanna was proactive, based on your standards:

Originally Posted by Haak

So just because the situation was not totally created by her, that means it doesn’t count? I fail to see how all the other situations are any different.

Mio confessed because of the situation created for her and only one episode before Kanna.

Ichika only approaches Kaori from a situation created for her. Kanna also tries to approach Kaito about the matter but gets Remon-trolled (Episode 7, around the 7th minute). Ichika approaches Testuro’s sister but then again, Kanna does also approach Kaito about Ichika and tries to go on a date with him in Episode 3.

But your response was “No, the point is that Kanna's bad circumstances are not extraordinary.” – which doesn’t change the fact that Kanna has been proactive, just as much as the other girls.

On a side note, the fact that you ignore what was stated just to focus on what wasn't stated and
focus your point entirely around that isn't helping your credibility in my eyes.

I’ll make a note of it...

I suggest you heed your own advice, before I do what you did and assume an omission of a rebuttal for a specific point means you acknowledge my point as true.

...

What?

And again: I will state the thesis for my argument: It was Kanna's choice not to act on her feelings. Because it was her choice, it can be helped. I have provided facts and reasons for my assertion, which you seem to not acknowledge because you think it's all opinion and somehow I haven't argued a bit at all.

The only reason I’m quotting this BS is to avoid further accusations of deceit. In any case why did you quote the same line twice?

My distaste for a pre-emptive rejection and Kanna's level of proactiveness are purely subjective, and as such cannot be argued on any grounds other than morals and beliefs, so I'll leave that out for now. I'll give you that. However, Kanna's level of effort, while partly subjective, can be evaluated in comparsion towards the other characters and be supported with facts.

...whatever...

[monpuchi]

Originally Posted by TJR

It's just a long-running meme, primarily associated with Kikuko Inoue. For the fans only.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...ple.php?id=542

Interesting. I thought it was just another reference to Ichigo from Onegai Teacher. I wouldn't have guessed there was more to it than that. Thanks.