2010-04-26, 14:25 | Link #9261 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Okay after thinking about the latest stuff I came up with another one of my crazy theories. this theory tries to unify several elements across the game and give a single explanation to both.
The interesting part is that it can match with shkanon theory, ghosterika theory and kanon-kinzo theory, all in a single package. I'll call it the medium theory. here are the main points of the theory: - Among the people in Rokkenjima there is a person (which will be called "person X") who has the ability to act as "medium" for the spirits of the dead. Whether this actually happens or it's just magic mumbo-jumbo that can be explained in another way is not really relevant to the theory. - Person X, once possessed by other personalities (which for simplicity will be called "ghosts" from now on), becomes unaware of his real self. the ghosts take over the body and act according to their personality and will. - Ghosts may or may not be aware of the truth, but most of them do know they are merely living in an host body. - Genji, Kumasawa most certainly know about Person's X ability, however they can't really tell that to everyone because they know they'll face disbelief. Kinzo of course knew that very well. - Person X does not have total control on her ability, so it could happen that she makes things she isn't aware of. Consequently, Genji and Kumasawa often need to cover up her blunders. - Ghosts might be able to see other ghosts and converse with them if the situation allows it. Also if they quickly interchange in Person's X body, Genji and Kumasawa or whoever knows and accept this strange story are able to talk with two or more ghosts at the same time. Kinzo's ghost If this theory is correct, then Person X can host Kinzo's ghost. Natsuhi might have been very skeptical of this in the beginning, but her strong desire to see Kinzo again, made her "magitoxin" level fade and therefore she was able to recognize Person X as Kinzo. She accepts that Person X truly becomes Kinzo even so she is aware that everyone else cannot understand it. Whenever in the game we see Kinzo, it's actually Person X. Whenever we see person talking about Kinzo even among the people tha know he is dead, they are referring to Kinzo's ghost. In time Krauss accepted this truth as well. Beatrice's ghost Beatrice died long ago, and then a second Beatrice died in 1967. Both their ghosts can possess Person X. This explains the "two Beatrice dilemma". This also explains why Beatrice "has no body". The witch's prank can be explained by Person X becoming the witch, and of course Genji does his best to cover it up. Shannon's and Kanon's ghosts It is possible that one of them is dead or both of them are. It's difficult to imagine who they were but it's possible that Shannon was the young maid that died in 1967. Kanon has been said to have died in Jessica's room, maybe that was an accident of some sort. Shannon has been possessing Person X for a long while, making it the main ghost. Kanon has probably died more recently 3 years before, causing his appearance to come much later. Erika's ghost Erika died by falling from the pleasure boat. This is can only be explained with the supernatural, in that case it's possible that her "ghost" possessed person X. More of that later. EP2 chapel scene Person X, possessed by Beatrice, invited all the adults in the chapel and explained the situation. Of course no one wanted to believe that at first, however Beatrice managed to convince them somehow. She proved it. That's why Rudolf said "what can I say you have proved devils". Everyone, reluctantly, acknowledged it: "You are the witch Beatrice". Later when Rosa goes talking to Kinzo, she is actually going to talk to Person X possessed by his ghost. Rosa already knows the situation from before, so she accept that Person X can become Kinzo as well. EP4 Kinzo's appearance Krauss and Natsuhi already believe that Kinzo's ghost can take control of person X, however they don't think they can just tell this story to the rest of the family. In EP4, they are left with no choice. They have no choice but to ask Person X to become Kinzo and show himself in front of everyone. And so that's what happens. Similar to the previous situation, the adults have no other way but to accept the evidence even if it is preposterous. They all acknowledge Kinzo's existence Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice This mainly appears in EP2 and EP6. Beatrice is a ghost that emerged only recently. Kanon and Shannon who alternate often and can coexist meet with Beatrice the way it is described in the story. Of course this only happened in their head, not physically. Kanon apparently doesn't like Beatrice, Shannon is more open, in the end Shannon is influenced to accept Beatrice's suggestions to never give up on their love dreams. These kind of interactions only happen at a "spiritual level" not in the real world. The same way is true for Kanon and Kinzo interactions. For some reasons Beatrice and Kinzo cannot coexist, the irony. Well actually in the end even they can do that since sometimes we see them together. Kanon and Jessica, George and Shannon, the love duel Jessica knows, George knows. The persons they love are dead. However their love its too strong to be defeated by that, even if they know the truth they still want to fulfill their dreams, though they know, only one of them can win. George wants person X to be Shannon forever, Jessica wants person X to be Kanon forever. And then of course there's Beatrice that wants to stay with Battler. That's why the love duel is required. Erika's presence in EP5 When Erika appears in front of Maria it's not like the usual plot really changed. Person X shows in front of Maria as usual, but this time, she's been possessed by Erika's ghost. Maria knows person X situation and being very perceptive she recognizes that person X is being possessed by an unknown person. She then brings person X to Kumasawa and Genji which understand what happened. Someone named Erika Furudo just drowned and now Person X believes that she's that person. In order to cover up the problem, they try disguise Person X as much as possible to make her look like a stranger. Then Person X is introduced to everyone as Furudo Erika explaining that she just survived after falling off a ship. Erika's ghost herself believes in this story. She is able to see both Kanon and Shannon, but she's not aware that they aren't actually there. I stops here, for now, but I think you can guess all the other implications, it would be very long to explains them all. Of course some of these parts might be false. After all if they are ALL correct, then we need an unknown person to make 17 people in total.
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2010-04-26, 14:45 | Link #9262 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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2010-04-26, 15:00 | Link #9263 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I gotta admit, if not for the paranormal aspects of that, which can be explained away as multiple personality disorder, it does represent a solution for the entire Umineko. If a bit unsatisfying...
I once joked about this theory, which if I may, I'd like to call the Sheverybodytrice theory. 8) (Actually, my joke about the Sheverybodytrice theory was that there was just one or two people on the island and everyone is fake... although that doesn't work for the given count of people on the island now.) Actually there is one supporting piece of evidence that if not everyone is possessing people as 'ghosts' then maybe at least Beatrice is. Maria seems to have difficulty identifying Beatrice. I'm sure everyone remembers her pointing to Eva-Beatrice in EP3 and declaring that 'Beatrice is here.' It makes me wonder if Maria thinks Beatrice's form keeps changing so she recognizes any strange occurance as 'Beatrice.' |
2010-04-26, 15:04 | Link #9264 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
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2010-04-26, 15:05 | Link #9265 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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This owing to how Battler is seldom by himself, some people have said, and how he just participates in conversations but doesn't lead or something. |
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2010-04-26, 15:12 | Link #9266 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I suspected for a while after EP3 that there might be a tiny supernatural core at the heart of the mystery. That would be the one way that Lambda could be absolutely certain Bern would never, ever solve it. And it would be totally in keeping with Ryukishi initially claiming that it could be a fantasy or a mystery. Quote:
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2010-04-26, 15:17 | Link #9267 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
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Location: In a badly written story.
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2010-04-26, 15:25 | Link #9269 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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It's very easy to assume a tiny supernatural element that looks reasonable, which will eventually purely logically transform into a 2=1 equation, which will allow an arbitrary quantity of supernatural that you can't stop... P.S. Actually, if we roll with it, Kanon is Natsuhi's furniture, materialized from a memory of the baby 19 years ago. Natsuhi repeatedly has headaches. Ange refers to the strain on her brain imposed by materializing the Stakes as a headache. He is not a suitable boyfriend for Jessica in Natsuhi's eyes, which is why he isn't allowed to love her.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-26 at 15:38. |
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2010-04-26, 15:42 | Link #9270 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-04-26, 15:43 | Link #9271 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I must say that this theory, despite its many weak points, it finally gives me enough reasons to accept ghosterika.
Before there were a lot of things that didn't sound right to me. I can't really accept that a random person becomes Erika Furudo, but if it is the same person that can become Beatrice and Kinzo, then it works. Plus this way I have found a connection between Erika and Beatrice's game, that previously was missing. If Erika is one of the many ghosts of the "Person X", then understanding this is an important piece to understand Beatrice's games. Also I found interesting to note how Erika and Beatrice seem to be incompatible existences. Erika makes her appearance when Beatrice starts to die. Soon after Beatrice dies Erika becomes a full fledged witch. Then we have EP6 where as soon as Beatrice fully recovers her identity Erika dies. Interesting to note that we have a duel between Erika and Beatrice that is pretty similar to the duel between Shannon and Kanon. Also I wonder if "ghosts" are limited to dead people, because in case they are not, then we can also explain EP3 with person X becoming Evatrice. It would fit since Evatrice takes Beatrice's place. plus the red web of truth would be solved easily if Kanon and Shannon are dead since a long time. Lastly the scene where Beatrice resurrects Kanon and Shannon for George's and Jessica's sake could be explained by the fact that Beatrice steps aside to let Kanon's and Shannon's ghosts appear. Quote:
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2010-04-26, 15:43 | Link #9272 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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In other words, you can't have a supernatural detective because of Knox's 2nd. Other than that and the 17th person, I don't see any problems. |
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2010-04-26, 16:10 | Link #9274 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I have to admit I like the medium theory it can explain a lot of things quite gracefully.
I was just thinking before that of a way the final reds work though. So assuming it's not true I'll add in my theory. I'll start with the reds supporting it first
The reds in episode 4 created the rule that no more than 17 people exist on Rokkenjima during the disaster. For any new character to be introduced another character must be eliminated to make an 18th person one of the 17 people. Either that character never arrived to the island or he was dead before the game was finished being set up. This allows Erika and other characters to exist while still keeping the number of people no more than seventeen In other words because of this new rule the game master had to write out or kill off a character to introduce Erika. For episode 5 and 6 I'd chose Battler.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-26 at 16:25. |
2010-04-26, 16:40 | Link #9275 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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A trickier problem to get around is this one: Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. If there's only one medium, and Kanon and Erika are both ghosts, and ghosts don't count as bodies, then we'd only have two bodies going in and out.
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2010-04-26, 16:47 | Link #9276 | ||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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But Jan-Poo did offer a different explanation in a previous post. Quote:
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2010-04-26, 17:14 | Link #9277 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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however the "3 bodies" issue cannot be explained...
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2010-04-26, 17:45 | Link #9279 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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...Wow, this is getting pretty weird.
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2010-04-26, 17:49 | Link #9280 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Speaking of supernatural, I just stumbled on some weirdness in Ep4.
If you assume a rational explanation that Ange generally subscribes to, i.e. that virtual characters are internally maintained delusions, there should be no difference whatsoever in terms of effort between interacting with Maria and imagining the Stakes. Stakes should in fact be easier as they are inherently simpler characters. The only difference would be in terms of numbers. So why?
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