(L) Yosuga no Sora

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Nikanoru

As for the review, I read it all but... I'm guessing it's the same for anime, game, book, music and movie reviewers. After having seen such a huge amount of material (that they often have to go through just because it's their job) they seem to become incredibly jaded. I hardly ever trust professional reviews anymore, mostly preferring to rely on user reviews instead, since their experience is more in line with what mine is likely to be, not having seen as much.

Well, I'm not going to actively counter the criticisms of Ascaloth's review, because I don't like putting words in other people's mouths, and I think he's more than capable of effectively defending his point of view, but I do think that this particular sentiment is utter rubbish. It's a convenient generalization made to dismiss reviewers and paint all of them with the same brush.

Personally (although I haven't taken a close look at the numbers), it kinda feels like I've become a tad more lenient the more I've written. I look back at some of my older reviews and feel like, occasionally, I was too harsh. Yes, some critics become jaded with time. But to make the assumption that all do is aggravating. It becomes hard to imagine what points a reviewer could make that you could recognize as valid or reasonable, except those that directly agree with your already established opinion.

If you want to discuss or dispute specific points raised in a given review, then that's fine, because those can be discussed or argued about. But to dismiss an opinion out of hand because of the background of the person who raised it... well, that's just an ad hominem, and simply limits any chance of discussion, any opportunity to have an exchange of ideas, or to widen perspectives from either point of view.

[Kamonichan]

Hmmm. I didn't know professional reviewers frequented this forum. Quite the surprise. I have to apologize, though, because I never read anyone's review of anything--books, anime, what-have-you--because I know it won't suit my biased attitude and will only make me more aggressive in defending the show. All reviewers are biased, but that's because everyone is. To be biased means to hold certain things more important than others, and if you can find someone who treats everything in the world equally, then tip of the cap.

So unfortunately, I can't comment on the above-mentioned review, but I do hope at least some reviewers thought positively of the show. The chances of this show ever getting an R1 release are slim-to-none, but if some critics enjoyed it, that means the people of-like-minds who follow the critics will enjoy it, and maybe the chances will be closer to slim than none.

I personally enjoyed the omnibus format because it was new to me. I usually wind up cheering for the wrong girl in harem series, so when a series has every pairing, it's easier to withstand. Of course, I do feel sorry for Kozue, but apparently the player couldn't "win" her story route, so there's no helping it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kamonichan

Hmmm. I didn't know professional reviewers frequented this forum. Quite the surprise.

Well, just to be clear, they're not "professional reviewers" in that they don't write reviews for a living. They're just fans like everyone else who happen to write reviews of whatever they watch. So the complaint (and resulting rebuttal) were pointless anyway (it isn't their "job" to watch anime).

I hope we can keep the discussion here to the show itself. A debate about reviewing and reviewers is not on-topic in this thread.

[Nikanoru]

There I thought I was being all careful, partially blaming my own inexperienced self. Guess not.

I didn't just start out simply dismissing every professional reviewer, "because". But after having seen more than enough overly vicious vitriol about subtle plot points that supposedly ruin completely an otherwise beautiful piece of work to last me a lifetime, yeah you could say I've become a bit distrustful of people who do this kind of thing for a living (or otherwise do it a lot). Call it generalization if you want. It's not like I don't consider every point, I just weigh along our obvious differences. Is that really wrong?

Anyway, I suppose this is indeed getting a bit off topic. Sorry for still posting this, relentlessflame, I was typing before you made your post. :x

[Sorrow-K]

Well, I can't speak for other sites, but we're not professional, and never have been. No one who writes for our site gets paid, and the site generates a humongous $0.00 annually from ad revenue. I can't speak for others, but I write because I'm passionate about the anime I watch.

Oh, and so I'm not completely off topic, there are some aspects of Yosuga no Sora that I really liked (such as that beautiful soundtrack) and while I approve of it for having the audacity to show such brazen sex scenes, I thought some of the arcs, particularly the latter ones, relied far too heavily on them. Nao's arc especially was pretty much only held together because of the sex. Take the sex out and it would have fallen apart, which I think is a fairly cheap way to tell a story.

The sex scenes themselves were of varying quality too. Migiwa's scene was about as "appropriate" (relatively speaking) as it could have been, but Akira's scenes were just cringe-worthy (especially the whole "squeeze" stuff... they couldn't have made the scene more awkward).

The fact of the matter is, if you pack your story with excessive, gratuitous sex, you've got work to do to justify why it's there, other than cheap titillation. You just need to have a look at the massive drop rates this show had from people repulsed by the excessiveness of the sex. The fact that Yosuga no Sora almost, almost managed to lift itself above the limitations it set on itself by taking such a trashy course is, in my eyes, something of a miraculous accident rather than a result of intent. At the very least, it executed the omnibus format much better than Amagami did, where the resets between arcs were just way too harsh, and the intention was much more transparent.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

The fact that Yosuga no Sora almost, almost managed to lift itself above the limitations it set on itself by taking such a trashy course is, in my eyes, something of a miraculous accident rather than a result of intent.

Nothing about this show was accidental. The careful symbolism and cleverness of the dialog (at least in most of the episodes) show clear signs of intent. If you can get over your idea of "trashiness", I think the show is a lot more carefully-planned and artfully-constructed than you're giving it credit for. As with eroge as a medium, most people tend to struggle with the "balance" between sexually-explicit scenes and "serious content", and consider them to be at fundamental odds with each other at some level (even anime as a medium has traditionally been divided into "clean" and "hentai", further reinforcing that divide). So when a show tries to blend them as this one did, I expect it to be polarizing. There probably aren't enough examples of other shows that have attempted this blend for people to establish their expectations (but at least there's one such example now, for better or worse).

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Oh, and so I'm not completely off topic, there are some aspects of Yosuga no Sora that I really liked (such as that beautiful soundtrack) and while I approve of it for having the audacity to show such brazen sex scenes, I thought some of the arcs, particularly the latter ones, relied far too heavily on them. Nao's arc especially was pretty much only held together because of the sex. Take the sex out and it would have fallen apart, which I think is a fairly cheap way to tell a story.

It's the opposite view for me, for Nao and Sora's arc sex is an integral part of the plot.

[Nikanoru]

Like I've mentioned, I for one started off this series actually expecting a cheap ecchi thrill. And then I got hit by this incredible audiovisual atmosphere coupled with a serious plot that really hit a chord with me. Completely forgot about the ecchi part. When it got to the first sex scene, my reaction went along the lines of "oh right, sex too. Yay." Sure, not all of them were completely relevant to the plot, but it's not as if they always are, in real life. At least they happened where you'd expect them to.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Thanks to Ascaloth for posting the link to his intelligent review, with which I disagree substantially. I do agree about the good visual aspect of the show. And I too would rather have got more story and less omake. But I think the storytelling is also good, and almost all the sex works. I think of this as one of the best shows of the year, and more an 8 or 9 than a five.

For me, this is a new way of adapting an erogame. That makes it interesting, at the very least. Clearly, the plot evolves much more quickly than usual, but I never felt it went faster than I could keep up with, and the emotions and personalities developed reasonably, for me. In fact, now that I am used to this pace, other shows can seem glacial.

Haru didn't seem inconsistent to me. He was a kind and capable guy who liked women and was desperate to divert his feelings for his twin. In fact, the main characters all had real feelings that reached me.

It's certainly true that the inclusion of so much sex was carefully calculated to appeal to a particular audience, but that doesn't make it all immoral and beneath notice. I don't think of sex as dirty, so I would never describe those scenes as "trashy." It's reasonable to discuss whether they are integral to the plot, and there are some cases that can be debated. But would we say the same about a kiss or an embrace? The sex scenes were part of the expression of love, it seems to me, and all worked for me except the scene with Nao at the festival (but even that showed Haru's lust and desperation).

This is hardly a show to display for a general audience, but here among friends, I see it as something fascinating and new. What I look for in all drama is characters that make sense, with whom I can sympathize, and who have strong emotions that I can feel. This show provided all of that. It is hardly War and Peace, but it seems to me an excellent anime drama.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by brain

Your reiview was full of trivial or superficial criticisms, had no emotional component, and it was tremendously repetitive. "utter lack of class" because it shows teenagers fucking? It reads like a giant troll; why did you even post it here?

You didn't mention what you meant by "trivial or superficial criticisms", didn't explain what you meant by "no emotional component", and you gave no example of how it was "tremendously repetitive". And if you think I said it had an "utter lack of class" because it's just about "teenagers fucking", then you also clearly need to work on your reading comprehension skills. But hey, if it gets random folks like you talking and bitching about it, all the more reason to post it here.

Three words for you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The main flaw I noticed with the review is the comment about it being an "uninspired execution of the source material". Beyond the simple "what is uninspired supposed to mean", it's a bit suspect because a) he doesn't know the source material to start with but just guesses it's similar, b) he doesn't talk about the branching structure of the anime presentation (which is quite unique to this show), and c) all of the things he complains about (the omnibus format, the omake, the sex scenes, etc.) are the very things that set it apart from every other run-of-the-mill eroge adaptation out there. I'm not sure that combining all the routes somehow and removing the ero content would have made it more "inspired" (again, what does that even mean?).

Well, I suppose I had this coming, but I didn't have much of a choice either way. I would've liked to go into more detail myself, but....

The way I see it, Yosuga no Sora played out much too alike to an actual visual novel, since its take on the omnibus format emphasizes the consequences of different choices and circumstances. However, once you do it this way, I'm just left thinking, "why don't I just go play the game to begin with?". It's almost as if this is not so much an adaptation, as it is an rehash and/or an advertisement of the story routes.

Which brings us to the question of the purpose to the omnibus format in the first place; if not out of lack of interest in adapting the VN's disparate routes into a coherent story suitable for the anime format, then what? Kazuha's and Akira's stories could more or less be put together as one whole story, given their related nature. Nao's and Sora's, perhaps not so much, but still possible to an extent. Why didn't they do so to save time, time which can be used to develop the story further?

I can only see one other reason for this; to give every girl their time in the sexual limelight, as well as perhaps avoiding any semblance of a shipping war. Like I did already mention in my review, some of the sex scenes (by which I meant some of Nao's and Sora's) were plot-critical and had their place, but the rest....not so much. It certainly didn't help that the sex scenes themselves was explicitly soft porn, either; I'm pretty certain there are more tasteful ways of rendering sex scenes than humongous honkers, "squeezing" and outdoors yukata. You want to tell me those are anything more than titillation material?

Yes, Yosuga's take on the omnibus is a different approach, but it feels uninspired and uncreative to me.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Haru didn't seem inconsistent to me. He was a kind and capable guy who liked women and was desperate to divert his feelings for his twin. In fact, the main characters all had real feelings that reached me.

It's certainly true that the inclusion of so much sex was carefully calculated to appeal to a particular audience, but that doesn't make it all immoral and beneath notice. I don't think of sex as dirty, so I would never describe those scenes as "trashy." It's reasonable to discuss whether they are integral to the plot, and there are some cases that can be debated. But would we say the same about a kiss or an embrace? The sex scenes were part of the expression of love, it seems to me, and all worked for me except the scene with Nao at the festival (but even that showed Haru's lust and desperation).

Now, this interpretation bothers me somehow. I never got any impression in the first three routes that Haruka was taking that much interest in the other girls because he wanted to divert his lusts for his sister to a more appropriate target; he always seemed sincere in his love for those girls in those routes. Yes, there's the flashback of him kissing Sora when they were kids in the first episode or so, but that almost never becomes an issue again except in Sora's route. As far as I'm concerned, what Haruka did in each route has no effect on the events of any other route.

Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument, that Haruka is indeed pursuing other girls to get his mind off Sora. What does that say about Haruka? I'd actually feel sorry for the other girls, knowing they're just getting used.

And really, it's also Sora as well. She's consistent in the sense that we get a jealous vibe from her pretty much in any arc, but why does she pull the seductress act only in her own route? It's hard to buy such a sexual approach from a character who had only resorted to jealous looks before. Again, might not be much of an issue in the Kazuha/Akira side of the story, but what stopped her from pulling the same in Nao's arc, where she arguably has the motivation to do so? What's the deal with her?

I can see what this series is trying to do. It's the execution I mostly have an issue with.

[Haru~]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Three words for you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

That's gotta hurt.

Which brings us to the question of the purpose to the omnibus format in the first place; if not out of lack of interest in adapting the VN's disparate routes into a coherent story suitable for the anime format, then what? Kazuha's and Akira's stories could more or less be put together as one whole story, given their related nature. Nao's and Sora's, perhaps not so much, but still possible to an extent. Why didn't they do so to save time, time which can be used to develop the story further?

This I can agree. Reminds me of the AIR TV where different routes are combined but able to tackle all them tying a single story. Unfortunately some of the stories are fast-forward that left me in a roller coaster ride. I think this adaptation is still good as a start for omnibus formats. Because we can focus on the story of the arc we like than wasting time watching others.

I can only see one other reason for this; to give every girl their time in the sexual limelight, as well as perhaps avoiding any semblance of a shipping war.

Shuffle wars I remember in this forum. And it gets bloody everytime. (Many were banned and I'm almost one of them.) Even Clannad and Kanon have that.

It certainly didn't help that the sex scenes themselves was explicitly soft porn, either; I'm pretty certain there are more tasteful ways of rendering sex scenes than humongous honkers, "squeezing" and outdoors yukata. You want to tell me those are anything more than titillation material?

Maybe for the fanservice. And they gave us more than a fanservice.

Yes, Yosuga's take on the omnibus is a different approach, but it feels uninspired and uncreative to me.

To me, it's "fresh" and "creative" enough for this season as they are competing with another omnibus format such as Amagami.(Which also tried a different approach.)

Now, this interpretation bothers me somehow. I never got any impression in the first three routes that Haruka was taking that much interest in the other girls because he wanted to divert his lusts for his sister to a more appropriate target; he always seemed sincere in his love for those girls in those routes.

This shows us that "you are what you think". That same person can have different scenarios depending on what he always think

Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument, that Haruka is indeed pursuing other girls to get his mind off Sora. What does that say about Haruka? I'd actually feel sorry for the other girls, knowing they're just getting used.

This is very much an argument. But I just think that if my favorite girl is Sora, I just think like that. But if I'm Nao fan, I'm gonna think he's sincere enough. So on...

And really, it's also Sora as well. She's consistent in the sense that we get a jealous vibe from her pretty much in any arc, but why does she pull the seductress act only in her own route? It's hard to buy such a sexual approach from a character who had only resorted to jealous looks before. Again, might not be much of an issue in the Kazuha/Akira side of the story, but what stopped her from pulling the same in Nao's arc, where she arguably has the motivation to do so? What's the deal with her?

Remember the Nao rape/ non-rape argument? Nao just NTR'd Sora from their childhood. Haru has growing feelings to Sora until that happen. Last episode, Sora said "we are even".

[Kameruka]

No offense to Ascaloth and entire Nihon Review team but I expect much lower score from them. Giving it 5 out of 10 is the biggest surprise to me since I already saw how they hate this show in their forums. I also expect them to give Amagami SS better score since it lacked of sex and nudity(well there still lots of sexual innuendos and implied sexual relationship between hero and the girls but they aren't count) and instead it ends up getting same score is the big surprise.

To Ascaloth, this is not a sarcasm but rather my description of how surprise I am to see your review.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

No offense to Ascaloth and entire Nihon Review team but I expect much lower score from them. Giving it 5 out of 10 is the biggest surprise to me since I already saw how they hate this show in their forums. I also expect them to give Amagami SS better score since it lacked of sex and nudity(well there still lots of sexual innuendos and implied sexual relationship between hero and the girls but they aren't count) and instead it ends up getting same score is the big surprise.

To Ascaloth, this is not a sarcasm but rather my description of how surprise I am to see your review.

Just to set the record straight, it's not so much "them" as it is "me". How NHRV works is, we don't sit around discussing and coming to a consensus about which titles get what ratings....the rating you see in any particular review, is the rating given to that series by the writer of that review and him alone. In this case, that means yours truly.

Since that's the case, I guess I'm going to have to qualify the rating. Yosuga no Sora has some impressive visuals and BGM, make no mistake about it. I'm real big on that; if any romance drama have audiovisuals which can compare favourably with the industry standards set by KyoAni and P.A. Works, I'll give major props for it. Individually, the premises of the story arcs (save perhaps Nao's) aren't half bad, either. I have a lot of issues with it, but I'll give credit where it is due, so a 5 it is.

As for Amagami, that's Sorrow's, so I'll let him defend his rating in the appropriate thread.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

It's the opposite view for me, for Nao and Sora's arc sex is an integral part of the plot.

I also consider the sex scenes in Nao and Sora's arc to be an integral part of the plot. They could have removed the sex scenes, but by doing so, the story wouldn't have been quite as compelling, especially Sora's. Knowing what happened between them is one thing, seeing it is another. While not everyone enjoyed them, the sex scenes definitely made an impact on the viewers, and that was the goal they wanted to achieve.

As for Akira and Kazuha's sex scenes, even though I agree they were utterly useless, I don't think they were detrimental to the plot. It was an easy, quick and pleasing to the eye way of showing us they became very intimate. I didn't find those scenes vulgar or distasteful, Akira's was even pretty cute (and funny). Furthermore, They lasted a grand total of what, 1 minute? You might as well complain about the omake ED taking up one minute and a half of each episode.

[brain]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

You didn't mention what you meant by "trivial or superficial criticisms", didn't explain what you meant by "no emotional component", and you gave no example of how it was "tremendously repetitive". And if you think I said it had an "utter lack of class" because it's just about "teenagers fucking", then you also clearly need to work on your reading comprehension skills. But hey, if it gets random folks like you talking and bitching about it, all the more reason to post it here.

Three words for you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

Writing a review of your review would take as long as it took for you to write your review in the first place, and have exactly as much Yosuga no Sora-related-content, I'm sure. But please, share with me even one item from your review that you would consider "insightful" rather than merely provocative!

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by brain

Writing a review of your review would take as long as it took for you to write your review in the first place, and have exactly as much Yosuga no Sora-related-content, I'm sure. But please, share with me even one item from your review that you would consider "insightful" rather than merely provocative!

Okay, okay... just let it go. He stated his opinion and has some arguments as to why he feels that way, so whatever.

And Ascaloth, you were clearly provoking him as well, so take it easy. Let's stick to the arguments and avoid the theatrics.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Haru~

Because we can focus on the story of the arc we like than wasting time watching others.

But this calls to mind the world building element that a unified format provides. Sure, there are many stories, but they all take place in the same universe, and reveal different elements of the characters. One watching, say, Nao's route wouldn't know as much about Akira or about Haru's relationship dynamics with her. After all, what is a story but the sum of the dynamics of its cast - all its cast? A fuller picture of the universe can be obtained by taking everything in. Calling the others a "waste of time" does a disservice to any story, fragmented or otherwise.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I never got any impression in the first three routes that Haruka was taking that much interest in the other girls because he wanted to divert his lusts for his sister to a more appropriate target; he always seemed sincere in his love for those girls in those routes. Yes, there's the flashback of him kissing Sora when they were kids in the first episode or so, but that almost never becomes an issue again except in Sora's route. As far as I'm concerned, what Haruka did in each route has no effect on the events of any other route.

Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument, that Haruka is indeed pursuing other girls to get his mind off Sora. What does that say about Haruka? I'd actually feel sorry for the other girls, knowing they're just getting used.

And really, it's also Sora as well. She's consistent in the sense that we get a jealous vibe from her pretty much in any arc, but why does she pull the seductress act only in her own route? It's hard to buy such a sexual approach from a character who had only resorted to jealous looks before. Again, might not be much of an issue in the Kazuha/Akira side of the story, but what stopped her from pulling the same in Nao's arc, where she arguably has the motivation to do so? What's the deal with her?....

Well, I did get a feeling that Haru might be running away from his passion for Sora, but that was not made overt until Sora's arc, for good reason. We only really knew that it was so when we got to that point. Which is fine by me. I don't believe Haru was really conscious of doing that until he stopped.

To me, Haru is the same guy in all routes, but the events of each route do not and should not affect each other. That is part of the skill of the adaptation. What I see is a Haru who responds to his new environment in four slightly different ways, each of which constitutes one route. He is still Haru, but time and chance lead him to one of four partners.

Same with Sora. In the other routes, she restrained herself and/or did not know how to go about getting Haru for her own. In her own route, she solved these problems. I don't see what's wrong with that.

The fact that he is running away from Sora toward these other girls is a very interesting part of the drama. Sure, it's not fair to them. So what? It makes for good drama. I can feel sorry for them, or upset with Haru, but that has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of the anime. In fact, it raises it to a higher level of psychology and realism, in my opinion. I don't think the fact that he is subconsciously running from Sora devalues much what he is feeling for the others. Love on the rebound is common in real life. He really feels something for them. But there is a larger feeling lurking there for Sora that will overwhelm his feelings for any of the others when it rises to the front of his consciousness.

I understand the feeling that the sex is tacked on and unnecessary, but besides just enjoying those scenes for themselves, I felt as if they put the seal on Haru's feelings for each girl. It is really only custom that makes us accept a kiss as a sign of love, but think of the act of love itself as something obscene. It is just as reasonable to think any show that does not get as far as sex is hiding important aspects of a relationship.

In any case, thanks for the opportunity to think about why I liked this show. Your arguments make sense on their own terms. I just don't happen to feel the same way.

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

Spoiler for NSFW:

http://www.fileserve.com/file/Be3P6zA

Well, here's the scene from episode 4 from the bluray. Like it's been said, no sound, just added bounce.

[Guardian Enzo]

I agree that Haru did not obviously act as though was using the first two girls as a substitute for Sora - he seemed sincere in his feelings for them to me as well. Obviously there was a quantum shift in the Nao arc. While Haru still seemed to genuinely love her in that arc, it was clear than everything that happened between Haru, Sora and Nao was interconnected. In a sense, the first two arcs seemed disconnected from the rest of the series to me.